Flying skills while on the ramp

[CRJ-705]

Hey guys,

Im strongly considering getting back into aviation for a career. I have just over 200TT and my multi ifr. My main concern is I havent flown much in the past few years and my skills arent what they were coming out of college. For guys who take ramp jobs, what is the process like for getting into the right seat? Do you get to practice flying the aircraft before your checkout flight/pcc? I dont know if i should accept a ramp job only to have to do a PCC in 6 months and have it go terrible.

Thanks

[C.W.E.]

Flying an airplane is a mechanical skill that stays with you just like riding a bike.

However it does degrade if you don't fly once in a while.

If a company needs a ramp worker they should allow you enough flying time to be able to pass a check ride.

If they will not give you that in writing don't work for them because they will screw you in the end.

[TheRealMcCoy]

It was almost 4 years to the day from my MIFR ride to when I got checked out at my first job. Every company will do flight/simulator training with you before your PPC. And if you need a little more time on the plane they'll give you another hour or two usually.

[GhostRider6]

What about using a PC based system as a strictly IFR procedures trainer? flight sim does just fine in this regard. I wouldn’t expect to hone your fine motor skills as it can be twitchy AF but as someone who was off work due to an MVC and very short on cash it served me just fine.

I then booked a few flights on a red bird/ Alsim prior to the full motion sim and I was off to the races.. nobody was the wiser.

There’s also something called books, Flashcard apps etc?

Do you expect this to be handed to you on a sliver platter ? I was expected to be ready for sim and pass my initial/ recurrent in the same time frame as the guys who had been flying the line. No excuses.. and no, the accident was not my fault.

If you want it.. do the work and do what you need to do to bring yourself up to speed/ to an acceptable level. From my experience, no employer will do this for you... your license, your skills, your career.

G’luck

[GhostRider6]

To further my point ..

I’ve had sim evals on large transport category aircraft after a lengthy/ unanticipated layoff.

I went in with the mindset that I was up against others who had not been laid off and who’se skills might be sharper than mine. Or, were more familiar on the aircraft being used for the eval. I took the initiative and did what was needed to bring my skills up/ improve them. Again, initiative! ( it also made me less nervous)

A prospective employer isn’t going to take into account layoffs, injuries, Ramp time and I frankly don’t expect them to care... an employer wants to see what I’ve got.. next to others. Your first PPC / PCC flight will be the same... a certain level of competence is required for the position you have been hired for . Also, on top of general flying you’ll be expected to know the aircraft systems and the SOP’s .. cold. Best to stay on top as much as you can..

Similarly, when online, you will be expected to know your drills, SOPS etc on any given day.. engine failures, depressurizations, severe icing encounters, RTO’a etc aren’t planned..

[CRJ-705]

What about using a PC based system as a strictly IFR procedures trainer? flight sim does just fine in this regard. I wouldn’t expect to hone your fine motor skills as it can be twitchy AF but as someone who was off work due to an MVC and very short on cash it served me just fine.

I then booked a few flights on a red bird/ Alsim prior to the full motion sim and I was off to the races.. nobody was the wiser.

There’s also something called books, Flashcard apps etc?

Do you expect this to be handed to you on a sliver platter ? I was expected to be ready for sim and pass my initial/ recurrent in the same time frame as the guys who had been flying the line. No excuses.. and no, the accident was not my fault.

If you want it.. do the work and do what you need to do to bring yourself up to speed/ to an acceptable level. From my experience, no employer will do this for you... your license, your skills, your career.

G’luck

Yeah the ifr part I know I can practice procedures on the ground. My question was how does pcc flight work when coming off the ramp? Do I get practice flights before the pcc?

[Hilroy]

Depending of the company you're spending your time on the ramp...

I think there's two types of ramp positions:

1- The one you stay between 6-12 months, and awarded a right seat in a multi-turbine aircraft.

2- The one that you stay 3 months on the ramp and you start flying little machines as 172 or Navajo.

Depending on where you land, I will say your challenge will be different. In a multi-crew / IFR environment, you will have to refresh a lof of this theory plus learning how to handle that gap between what you have experienced and the new challenges. In the single-engine / piston environment, you're on your own, flying VFR, on machines that you already know how they work. You will feel comfortable way faster learning to fly a 172 in a 703 operation vs learning to fly a B1900 in 704.

[GhostRider6]

As I would say to my toddler “ asked and answered” ( albeit indirectly)

No, you won’t get a ton of extra flights. You are a licensed pilot and a professional with XYZ ratings...you are expected to perform as such. ( 200 hour college grad out of college) I can’t be clearer YOU MUST KNOW BASIC IFR ( INRAT knowledge/ flight test knowledge)

The operator is NOT A FLIGHT TRAINING UNIT.

Like I said, with a few thousand hours I recognized I been off, I WAS rusty. And I grabbed an Instructor, my PC sim, my iPad( Flashcards), got the heck out of the house and away from the kids and busted my ass studying to bring myself back to my basline skill. ( few thousand hours) I asked for a flight or two in the jumpseat and got that too. The cute girls at the local coffee shop don’t hurt either as a study incentive.

Was my sim perfect? God no. But the training department saw that I had got ahold of all the resources I could and was impressed. I took the initiative and studied. Was there things I didn’t know/ forgot? VERY MUCH so.. but I was able to use the sim to HONE my abilities and not spend the time bumbling along drinking from a firehose. Consequently, my line training went better too..In the end, I actually came back a stronger pilot after a lenthy injury LOA. I was then ready for an upgrade shortly thereafter..

As a previous poster said.. maybe 1-2 extra flights if things aren’t clicking but it’s more a new aircraft/ handling thing.

Employers will expect you to know how to fly an approach, read charts, know IFR rules, IFR procedures applicable to your operation : 703, 704,705 etc, read and approach plate, cold WX correct, do a steep turn, stall, maintain altitude ( to the best of your ability). Learning basic IFR knowledge and basic IFR isn’t for the PPC / PCC.

Oh! It wouldnt hurt to have a look at company ops memos and the AIM where it pertains to IFR operations and YOUR operation. Also, it wouldn’t be bad to look at an IATRA / ATPL study and reference guide/ material with so much time elapsed since you flew last. ( I think you said, a few years)

Like I said, do some review on your own, attend a seminar, make some Flashcards on an IPAD or on paper, get a PC simulator and once you’re at a certain level go see an instructor. Or, even better, see an instructor / sim , get yourself to a basic level THEN practice on your own. ( so you aren’t ingraining mistakes) Only know will know what will work best..

A PPC / PCC is a license to learn but its learning how to handle the new Aircraft, some of the systems and avionics and some of the more complex IFR stuff not taught in schools, ITS NOT flight school. Yes, you are new to IFR and they aren’t expecting Flawnlessness but they ARE expecting a minimal level.

You will be expected to KNOW: the SOP-cold, drills-cold, flying skills appropriate to the position and your time. ( 200 hour wonder out of school prior to YOUR FIRST FLIGHT.

When I started out, the company had their own sim and by god If you weren’t in there .. and your flying was sub par the Cp’s boot wasn’t far away from your a$&@. This being said, if you had a crappy flight and they saw you putting in the work and despite this needed a bit of extra help they’d be VERY eager to help you.

Also, you’ll have a bugger of a time learning two Crew, SOP’s, the COM, Systems if you are still trying to figure out basic IFR. Also, the hotter the plane and more complex the steeper the learning curve.

Don’t do the aforementioned/ beaten to death the week, month, day, before you go on flight line. Keep up with your technical knowledge now..

For example, when I knew I couldn’t fly for a while it didn’t stop me from staying on top of my stuff. Was I on the Ramp? No. I was flying a 705 aircraft.. but couldn’t fly due to medical stuff. But the principle is the same..

I don’t know why I need to even explain this..you did come from a college program..which should have taken some measure of work/ gusto to complete.

[GhostRider6]

In the case of a C172 / single job go grab an instructor, tell said instructor to be critical and your situation get a checkout and pound off a bit of airwork/ circuits. Or just do a flight or two with an instructor. Or, if you absolutely cannot afford it, crack some books. Grab a POH/ AFM and know what you can and know it COLD.

With 200 hours not much is expected .. but initiative and a willingness/ want to learn and improve.

It’s a JOB .. not a SCHOOL. Again, a basic level is required out of the gate. An operator is in the business of making money.. not teaching you how to fly below a 200 hr college grad standard.


Experience will HONE/ improve your abilities... would you rather build your house on a solid or cracked foundation? I know what I’d want.


Pretty simple to me..

[GhostRider6]

In the case of a C172 / single job go grab an instructor, tell said instructor to be critical and your situation get a checkout and pound off a bit of airwork/ circuits. Or just do a flight or two with an instructor. Or, if you absolutely cannot afford it, crack some books. Grab a POH/ AFM and know what you can and know it COLD.

With 200 hours not much is expected .. but initiative and a willingness/ want to learn and improve.

It’s a JOB .. not a SCHOOL. Again, a basic level is required out of the gate. An operator is in the business of making money.. not teaching you how to fly below a 200 hr college grad standard.


Experience will HONE/ improve your abilities... would you rather build your house on a solid or cracked foundation? I know what I’d want.


Pretty simple to me..

[digits_]

Oh my, not sure why the replies are so harsh, I think it is a fair question.

It depends a bit on the operator, best to talk to pilots who did the same as you are trying to do: go from ramp to flying position.

If you are aiming for an FO spot, then I wouldn't worry tooo much. The actual flying skills/airplane handling is much less important for a ppc/pcc than you might think. Procedural knowledge would be more beneficial. Your landings don't need to be perfect, they just need to be safe.

If you are going for a PIC position, then it might be more of an issue. If you get too rusty you won't pass, as you will be all by yourself during the flights.

Either way, before you take your PPC/PCC ride, there is mandatory training. So you should be fine. But yes, be prepared.

[Axial Flow]

Oh my, not sure why the replies are so harsh, I think it is a fair question.

Yeah I'd have to agree with Digits. If I was getting into aviation and perused avcanada to see what type of industry I was getting into based on the "brotherly" advice of anonymous strangers I would do a 180 and enter a more respectable profession. I don't have that much disdain for people I dislike and know in person, let alone a stranger asking a simple question on a forum.

From the day I graduated until my first PPC ride was 3.5 years. Prior to my ride I consulted with all the guys the previous year who had completed PPC's rides with the same check pilot to determine what I was to expect. I then flew the ride on Flight Simulator (now P3D and updated regularly by Lockheed Martin) daily and entered holds and approaches from every quadrant to ensure that nothing could through me off in relation to entries, timing and situational awareness.

To increase the realism, I became a Member of the VATSIM network (www.vatsim.net). This allowed me to complete my training flights logged in as the aircraft and call sign (using voice ATC commands) that I would be using during my actual ride, which increased my experimental capacity when I did the ride as all the radio calls, navaid/fix names and expected clearances were in my head already.

Due to aircraft scheduling and the company wanting to utilize the aircraft during down periods for training, all of my PPC training was conducted at night starting around midnight. Doing stalls at night in complete black IMC conditions was a great way to learn that you if you can recover in those conditions, you will probably not have a problem when things are not as harsh.

I practiced SOP's from standard operations to emergency procedures with any FO I could get to stay after their shifts were over or if I could get them to come in while on days off provided I usually had to buy beer afterwards. If you show the effort, others usually will see this and meet you in the middle.

It all comes down to how bad you want to succeed and how hard you are willing to work for it. If you want to do well which will also set you up for future upgrades and increase confidence in your CP about your abilities, I suggest you go balls to the wall and make the folks training you feel like maybe they should open up a book.

Best of luck, just remember you get out, what you put in.

"Disclaimer" I went to college when most Jazz FO's (AirBC, CDN Regional, Air Ont, Air Atlantic) had 3 times the current hours that current, freshly upgraded Captains do. But since the beginning of time, hard work has never killed anyone.

[TheStig]

From my experience as a training Captain at 703 and 704 operations, if you are coming off the ramp or even a VFR single engine aircraft into a multi-crew multi-engine operation 2 hours of simulator time at the local flight school can be very advantageous. Even professional athletes under contract start their season with training camp before the preseason. Getting a strong start at a company can make a huge difference when the Chief Pilot is considering who to upgrade first in the future. The airline world is completely different, the training is more structured and the curriculum is designed for the average pilot albeit with more experience than in the 703/4 world where training tend to be a one week ground school of power point slides, 5 hours of time in the airplane and a ride. Spend as much time as you can hangar flying with a classmate (with the SOP's sitting in front of you). Once you get online don't expect it to be anything like your training, you'll learn a lot, things move along quick and in 6 months you'll feel ready for the left seat.

[pilot4hire]

I was given about 10 hours of sim training prior to my check ride on a King Air 200 for a 703 operator. By the end of it I was confident I’d pass the check ride. It had been 4 months since I last flew and 10 since my last MIFR ride.

I got a flying gig(not on the BE20) straight out of flight school and I’ve seen many others do the same. I wouldn’t limit myself to ramp jobs if I were you.

Sorry about the harshness above.

Good luck!