Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

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groundpilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
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ant_321
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 »

groundpilot wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
I agree with what most of what you said but I personally know 2 guys who wish they never left Sunwing. I’m sure in a few years they may not regret their decision but for now the 100-150k paycut is making their lives pretty miserable.
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groundpilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

Well I don't know all +4000 pilots at AC but I can say everyone I fly with, are very happy.

Bottom of the seniority list isn't great but it is a long term game
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Shady McSly
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Shady McSly »

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TheStig
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by TheStig »

Lightchop wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

Dr. Jordan Peterson uses this phrase a lot when discussing modern feminism and I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. If a woman is more qualified than me for the job, by all means hire them. But they should never be considered for a position (including minorities) with lower qualifications just due to their race or gender. But then again I'm just a privileged white male so what do I know.
The issue, from what I've observed, is that there aren't that many experienced Female pilots to hire. If an airline hires female pilots with less experience, say 4000 hours, while the average male has 5000 hours they still won't achieve the desired 'equality'. The result would simply be that for any given portion of the seniority list, the women would be younger. The same argument can be made for any minority.
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:33 am Okay. It's been awhile, but I'll chime in. Sorry, but you don't make 40% more at AC than TS. The contract is public. Check it out. We're also due for another next year cause we only do 5 years not 10. Although the salaries are higher at AC, when will you see that? My neighbour who flies the 787 took that position almost 30 years in the company. Spent 20 flying the 320 half the month domestic. Even 767 Rouge captains are 20 years in the company. I'll be wide body captain at TS in less than 4. Which means I'll reach max salary in about 13. Most pilots, with the exception of the training folks won't break 500 hours a year at TS. I, as a commuter, worked 115 days last year... That's including ground training and sim. There are folks on the NB that do 90... That's less tban 1/4 of the year for the mathematically challenged. We have great skeds from day 1. We fly south or Europe so our work is typically very efficient. We can not be on reserve for more than a month in row or if we have 4 scheduled days in a month... Sim, overlapped pairing, vacation. We have a very good contract and a good family atmosphere. I can call my CP anytime to talk about whatever I need to. Personally, in my very humble opinion, the only thing AC has on us is job security.... Which is easy when the government bails you out every 7 years.
Are you math/fact challenge?

When was the last time AC took money? When didn't they pay it back?

Some of your other assertions are inaccurate also.

Mainline 767 is just over 20 years... junior LCC 767 closer to 15. Junior Mainline 320 or LCC 320 about 2...

Can you confirm the Transat pay scale? As I said, I only looked at the pilotpay website and I'm not going searching for your contract... This is what I see...
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png (421.39 KiB) Viewed 4360 times
Looks like I do make about 40% more on a NB and I don't really do much extra... I know FOs that make more than me too but they are working the system pretty hard draft/drop, etc...

Anyway, if those Transat numbers are accurate you'll be a WB Captain in 4 and earning less the an AC EMJ Captain... 30 years to get it? Hardly, see upgrade times above... I wouldn't knock domestic flying either, lots of guys prefer it... easy peasy 4 time zones... at least we have options.

I don't dispute Transat is a good lifestyle company. Basically same as rouge flying which we have a lot of guys doing here... it's bigger than Transat, YOS on upgrade, and a pension...

I wonder if Transat will dual type the 321neo with the 330 to get some more efficiency out of the crews? 330/321neo is a formidable 1/2 punch... new 767/757 like combo...

Anyway. Look forward to the pay confirmation.
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 »

Most AC and westjet guys I meet think is Sunwing and Transat guys make way less than we do. I talked to one guy who figured the most anyone at SWG could make is about $120k :lol:
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
nwopilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by nwopilot »

Those numbers someone posted from a screenshot for Transat are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Outdated. Add about 35 k onto those numbers. In theory. you could be at the top of the widebody scale with 14 years into the company.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm Those numbers aren't even close. And our next contract, one year from now will put us even closer to AC pay. I know we won't get it but look at it this way. If you divides a Transat pilot salary by the number of days worked, the very large majority of us would have a higher daily rate. And that is a fact. Another fact is my neighbour took WB captain at 28 years in the company cause the sked sucked prior to that. I'm not disputing domestic flying. I prefer it myself. I'm only trying to defend the fact that AC isn't the best option for everyone. Again, I'll be a WB captain in 4 years versus 20 plus at AC if you wanna good sked. And yes, we'll have a CCQ program in the next few years. I'll be able to fly a 330 to Paris today and take a 321 back tomorrow. And that's great AC paid the money back but why did they have to take the billion dollar bailouts in the first place... And would Westjet or TS get the same treatment?
Thanks for clearing that up. What are the numbers then? Is it hourly? Monthly guarantee? What's your pension like? DC match? Does the company pay/match? Do you pay your own benefits? Do you have disability covered?

How about Sunwing? What's the deal there?

Anyway, I think that is what everyone had said. It's not for everyone... lots of good jobs to be had... but your impressions of AC "sucking" are out to lunch. 20 years to a good schedule? Hardly. Your ideas are way off.

"WB Captain in 4 years" with narrow body pay... divided by this or that, carry the zero, doesn't equal more, but I sure hope you guys DO get ahead or match us ASAP!

2009 was a loan from EDC at 12 or 15 % and it was paid back in full... and only +/- $200 million was EDC - NOT A BILLION. The rest was private equity. Corporations take loans all the time.

AC government "bailouts" is a common fallacy among the general public... you see it in more or less every comment section below any news article that mentions AC...

If I remember previous to that the Feds doled out dollars to all Canadian airlines including Transat in '02 or '03...

There is no question a lot of baggage from the past 80 years at AC, The Airbus Affair, or politicians with one hand on the wheel, one hand in the corporation's pocket... The ACPPA - that's a doozie, where the government mandates where and how AC conducts it's business... are any other airlines subject to that? Any other private corporations? of course not.

Anyway. AC's not for everyone, that's for sure. But it's a good job...
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groundpilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

“Haters gonna hate”

“They hate us cause they ain’t us”

I find it ironic that someone rips into a former crown corporation company with a turbulent history of mergers and tough times that took a government payout but yet brags about how little they work.

If Air Transat pilots are working so little, how efficient can the operation be? Air Canada has had record profits and that is a good thing if you work here.

For the record - I would be happy to lose the “T4 Challenge” and AT pilots make way more than AC ones. It only paves the way for better wages for all...
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
TheStig
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by TheStig »

Just another canuck wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:14 am I wasn't ripping AC for the bailout or whatever you want to call it, but it's easy to advertise job security when even when you fail, the government won't let you. Would TS get the same treatment? What about Westjet? I doubt it.
Really good post JAC, thanks for adding your perspective. I can see how you feel, as someone outside of AC that somehow the government supports AC because it is a common misconception. I'd say that the government has a history of interfering with Air Canada, forcing a merger with CAL, legislating FOS but like the postal shrive we are in a Federally regulated industry. I think as pilots we all tend to hold the view that all Canadian carriers are burdened by a number of monopolies such as NavCanada, Catsa and the airport authorities. I can tell you that no one at AC feels like the government will bail us out if we fail, in fact the prospect of dealing with another Cerberus like hedge fund in CCAA a second time was one of the driving factors behind ACPA capitulating so much from 2008-2011. Lack of interference is why AC is as competitive globally today as it is.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by RVR6000 »

nwopilot wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:40 pm Those numbers someone posted from a screenshot for Transat are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Outdated. Add about 35 k onto those numbers. In theory. you could be at the top of the widebody scale with 14 years into the company.
Can you please post your current pay-rates here.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Speedalive »

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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:14 am a WB captain will max out at 215 hourly at 80 hours a month which is the guarantee. Works out to about 223 a year I think.
You mentioned it so...

for the mathematically challenged

max $215/hr x 80 hours x 12 months = about 206 a year... in 14 years...

... no question anyone doing $200K+ is doing alright. Those are AC narrow body captain rates though which guys are doing here in about 2 years if they are so inclined... admitted, it might not stay that way forever, 2 year upgrades... but nor will 4 year TS upgrades.

As I said, AC are the most productive pilot group in NA to earn it - no question. We have most NB guys working 12-16 a month. I was 16 days/mo in July/Aug... 9 days last month was a pretty good breather, but it was a lower hour month too... Christmas off this month too... hardly "brutal" and I don't mind earning my pay... it's a pretty good job.

Stig is right on re:"bailouts"... AC provides plenty for the politicians, between generating a ton of cash and jobs, forced mergers, and a soapbox to stand on for the issue-du-jour, everything from French Language to Airline Passenger Rights to a scape goat for public complaining about something that isn't the government.

Anyways... Here's to everyone going in the right direction on pay, a great career wherever they think suits them, and keeping it safe...
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