Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

[0000001]

Hi All

I recently had the opportunity to apply to Air Canada and I'm having second thoughts. Why does working at AC continue to be the big goal for so many when it doesn't seem to offer as much compared to companies like Air Transat and Sunwing? It's clear the work/life balance is very generous once you go Captain on a 777 working 8 days a month and banking $260k+ per year. However getting there seems to be a long, difficult slog and I'm starting to doubt whether AC is the most competitive employer out there.

Overall attitude:
I have quite a few friends working at AC, TS and SW. I hear nothing but positive things about TS and SW. AC pilots, on the other hand, are habitual complainers. I'd say one in four AC pilots have a serious dislike of their job and I can't figure out why you would stay if you hate it so much. Is the long-term benefit worth putting up with a miserable life for decades before it gets "better?" I'm currently in my later 20's and it seems like I'll be almost 50 years old before sched/pay/pairings will get "better." Worth the wait?

Schedule:
Right out of line indoc, the schedules are fantastic at TS and SW. Winters are busy but the rest of the year, pilots are only working a handful of days (1 to 8 days/month). SW has the option of deploying to Europe with all the perks that come with it. With AC, it seems like you're locked into year-round 17+ days while on reserve and 14-16 days with a sched on narrow-body. When you finally upgrade to a wide-body, you're working less but using your days off to get back on the sleep cycle. You can forget about having weekends off or vacation in the summer with AC until you put in many, many years of service. TS and SW, you get plenty of these days off if you want them. TS does time-zone changes too but SW is all +/- 3 hours of home, with plenty of recovery time in between. Seems like you would be far less tired with SW or TS.

Aircraft:
A lot of new hires at AC are being put on the A320 and you don't know the base until you're partway through training, no negotiation. No issue with Airbus but the regional flying is not preferred, especially from a city where I do not live. I've heard a lot of people recommend getting on B787 as an RP so you work very little and still earning the "flat pay" for the first 4 years. I don't even want to think about what would happen to my flying skills after babysitting the autopilot for 4 years. Plenty of upgrade opportunities at AC in the long-term though which changes things up a bit. Upgrades on a wide-body at AC are in the neighbourhood of 20 years for some aircraft types. TS and SW don't even call you for an interview unless your base of choice comes up, which is great. Upgrades are possible about ~2 years and your pay easily outpaces AC especially in the first 4 years.

Pay:
If your career progresses at the current typical times at each company, you stand to earn 25-30% more at AC upon retirement (assuming your goal is to become Captain at the earliest opportunity and flying the highest-paying aircraft you can). AC also has a pension plan vs. RRSP matching at the other two. AC is better long term however I really dislike the idea of being abused for the first 4 years at AC and barely earning a living wage in a major city.

Safety:
I never thought of AC as being at risk for a major incident but it seems like they're on track for that. TS and SW seem to keep themselves out of the news. AC seems to be running an "optimized operation" with less rest on layovers (except for certain wide-body destinations) and regional flying with the A320 which you have a good chance of getting as a new hire. It's hard to ignore the fact that fatigue was a factor in both the Halifax "hard landing" and SF "approach to taxiway" incidents, and both on the Airbus.


So the questions is: why do so many want to work at Air Canada? Does everyone still see Air Canada as a sure bet when it comes to job security, pay and advancement? It's hard to ignore what TS and SW are offering, especially in the area of work-life balance. Are the current conditions at TS and SW just a "gravy train" that won't last forever? Or is there something I'm missing here that makes people want to work at AC so badly?

Thanks for the input!

[HansDietrich]

Not everyone wants to work at Air Canada. I don't. I never wanted to.

[DanWEC]

I think this is an excellent, relevant question given the climate of our industry.
Back in the day it was the be-all and end-all to work at AC.

Given the exceptionally well structured question, I think it deserves responses of the same caliber. Looking forward to hearing from guys from mainline to rebuff.

[Irony]

Wasnt for me either.
Chasing the 1% could leave you unhappy with the 99%.

[altiplano]

If you think it's not for you then you shouldn't apply. It isn't for everyone.

But for ME, hands down I think AC is the best job. None of the other operators are close in choice IMO, particularly in variety, in total progression, in multiple benefit areas... in a guaranteed pension.

I don't know where you get 1/4 hating their job here... everyone I work with likes their job, and just want to maximize its potential which has been dragged backwards over the past 15+ years.

I remember when I came to AC, the company wasn't in great shape, colleagues at the airline I was with at the time said I was a fool, AC would be bankrupt again, I wouldn't upgrade for 20+ years... now AC is strong and I see some of those same nay-sayers joining here almost 2000 numbers junior to me... nothing is a sure thing, there are always risks... the future can be a bitch...

I think you're right about the optimized side... scheduled/crewing everything is being optimized to the max... we are the most productive pilot group in NA.

Ultimately we allow it, ACPA has allowed it, and when you go to your limit it's on you say stop or book off, I make enough money I don't need the aggravation to push myself, the whole operation doesn't stop if I stop, there are reserves, crew sked will fix it, I can always drop flying... plus I have sick days.

That said I'm mostly happy with my schedule and find a balance. Could it be better? Sure... but it ain't bad... I don't get all the days off I want, but I've never worked Christmas... a couple more days a month off might be nice, but I do easy flying so that's not bad...

A lot of that comes down to choice and variety... you have it here. Want to work 9 days? RP might be great... worried about your skills? I wouldn't be... keep your head in it, make use of the simulator which you can book in advance and use as much as you want... Dislike the idea of flat pay and want to double your T4? Bid NB Captain after a couple years and work 15-16 a month... Choice and variety, the longer you're here the more you have...

I see what you're saying about those incidents, and they were unfortunate, but I don't think it's a trend... they got heavy press... more than similar incidents... we have excellent equipment, excellence maintenance... support is only as good as you make use of, but there are a lot of tools here... and sgain a lot of it is on us to say no. esp. for fatigue. That's what they pay us for... to say no.

Pay? I don't know... is it only 25-30% more at the end of your career? I'm a NB Captain and looking at the pay on Airline Pilot Central, I think I'm more like 30-40% more than a Transat WB Captain... are they YOS on upgrade too? Or years in status, like WJ? But plus profit share, plus pension, plus stock match, plus benefits, plus JOB SECURITY... Let alone end of my career when a WB Captain rate is more like double the Transat rate... I think your idea of 25% is low... I'm not sure how reliable that rate is though and I don't know what Sunwing pays offhand...

Anyway. I like my job, I have friends at basically every airline in the country and they mostly like their jobs too... all of us want to push it to be better though too... don't take striving for improvement as complaining... somebody has to raise the bar.

Good luck.

[TheStig]

I'll second what Altiplano said, if you don't like what AC has to offer you shouldn't apply.

It doesn't take 25 years to earn $250,000/year or work 8-10 days a month, just to have both. New hire RP's routinely see great schedules within their first year and there are pilots who are upgrading to Captain within 3 years who are willing to work weekends, holidays and 16 days a month. I'm not trying to sell you on AC, it's good to know what you're signing up for, but I think you're looking at things wrong.

No one will argue that the first four years of pay is fair, but anyone hired over the past 4 years has enjoyed unparalleled career progression and opportunities. The music could stop anytime and those at the bottom of the seniority list would stay there until things started moving again but it seems like everyone I've talked to at AC is quite content with their job. Obviously, I'm not sure who you've talked to at AC to form your opinion, however, I hope you haven't limited your research to the internet. I'm envious of the careers that pilots who have joined in the past few years will and have already enjoyed. Bases of their choice from ground school or within months, seeing Captains in their 20's and early 30's, enjoying socialized blocks at rouge with 2.5X draft calls doing turns on the Airbus or European layovers all summer on the 767, pilots in their second year holding 777 FO positions, new hires on the 737 in YVR and YUL flying to Hawaii and Europe.

Lots of pilots' at TS and SW are quite content with their jobs but AC seems to hire a few from those carriers every month, while I've yet to hear of anyone leaving AC and moving the other direction.

[Sharklasers]

If you work at AC you can burn your resume.
I don't know about TS but I would bet money sunwing isn't around for another 20 years.
Upgrades in 2 years on the Airbus.
But if AC isn't for you don't apply, lots of others will.

I will say that there are some serial whiners in our ranks who don't remember how hard a real job is it seems.

[bearitus]

I'm glad to see positive responses. As an Express FO I often think about throwing in the towel and finding better paying work but if AC is truly as good as some make it out to be I may just hang on until I get my chance.

[FighterPilot]

A big draw for me that the others don’t offer is a wide variety of flying. Want to fly a 777 on long haul flights all over the world? AC offers that. Want to fly more domestic routes on a narrow-body? AC offers that. Want to do “vacation” flying down to the Caribbean? AC offers that.

[jpilot77]

I’d second what TheStig said. Almost every new hire course at AC has at least some pilots from Sunwing and or Transat. I haven’t heard of any going the other way. That being said I know guys that have gone to those places and loved it.

[Floatinghog]

Great question(s)...
I wanted to aspire to a career at AC when I was first starting out - but when I started to see how the industry really worked after getting that first big break - I dropped the idea... however, later on in my career I applied twice to see what would happen. I was successful both times and turned down both offers on the basis of the first years pay rates... not justifiable to my family. However there is some history to all of this... after returning from an excellent summer deployment in the QCIs as a F/O on the DHC-6 back in ‘95 - another fellow F/Os father anounced his son (who had worked together with me that summer up in the QCIs - also in his first flying job) would be starting that winter at AC because his father was a long serving Vancouver based Captain. This kinda killed any ambition to strive for something that was so easily handed out through nepotism... this is not a rant on my colleague or his father, hell - I would have done the same thing had I been in either positon too. Another interesting historical fact from 1998 - three colleagues were picked up and hired at AC from the same cadre of drivers I was working in/with - all had less time, less experience and NO university degree - I have a BSc. in Biology and at the time I was the only white male in the group... one was a white female from Vancouver, one was a Sikh male from Surrey, and the other a half Haitian colored male from Toronto... we all applied at the same time to Big Red. I was sent a letter from AC asking me politely to reapply when I reached 5000 hours and preferably with regional turboprop command hours... all the other three were hired at AC and started out on the DC-9 fleet. All three required ‘training to standard’... we are all still in contact and all three have informed me that they have letters on their files that they signed accepting life long F/O positions as each one failed all their respective command rides at various points along their individual careers at AC.... the white female married a more senior Captain twenty years her age and used the maternity card to drift in/out of her career for years... the other two are along for the ride... in the right seat - forever. I, on the otherhand, have carved my own career out and enjoyed each and every job along the way... I’ve made good money, seen the world and have flown in some incredible parts of the World... and, flown some amazing aircraft... but, the biggest surprize of all was learning that my place in the world revolved around the meaningful work of being a career pilot on the DHC-6 seaplane... I also learned that things happen in life for a reason, and had I been hired back in 1998 too, I most likely would never have stayed at AC... so, the life lesson is to not measure success by what was not offered in life or, by what others have been offered, but by all the experiences one accumulates in the greater journey we call life... and being happy and content with what one has... if sitting at altitude watching clouds go by is your thing then all the power to you. I prefer to decide when and where I go to work, when I get time off and how long I want to work for each and every season... the constraints of schedules, bidding, and climbing a seniority ladder aren’t for me and I’m very happy that I realized this early on in my career!

[Sharklasers]

Great question(s)...
I wanted to aspire to a career at AC when I was first starting out - but when I started to see how the industry really worked after getting that first big break - I dropped the idea... however, later on in my career I applied twice to see what would happen. I was successful both times and turned down both offers on the basis of the first years pay rates... not justifiable to my family. However there is some history to all of this... after returning from an excellent summer deployment in the QCIs as a F/O on the DHC-6 back in ‘95 - another fellow F/Os father anounced his son (who had worked together with me that summer up in the QCIs - also in his first flying job) would be starting that winter at AC because his father was a long serving Vancouver based Captain. This kinda killed any ambition to strive for something that was so easily handed out through nepotism... this is not a rant on my colleague or his father, hell - I would have done the same thing had I been in either positon too. Another interesting historical fact from 1998 - three colleagues were picked up and hired at AC from the same cadre of drivers I was working in/with - all had less time, less experience and NO university degree - I have a BSc. in Biology and at the time I was the only white male in the group... one was a white female from Vancouver, one was a Sikh male from Surrey, and the other a half Haitian colored male from Toronto... we all applied at the same time to Big Red. I was sent a letter from AC asking me politely to reapply when I reached 5000 hours and preferably with regional turboprop command hours... all the other three were hired at AC and started out on the DC-9 fleet. All three required ‘training to standard’... we are all still in contact and all three have informed me that they have letters on their files that they signed accepting life long F/O positions as each one failed all their respective command rides at various points along their individual careers at AC.... the white female married a more senior Captain twenty years her age and used the maternity card to drift in/out of her career for years... the other two are along for the ride... in the right seat - forever. I, on the otherhand, have carved my own career out and enjoyed each and every job along the way... I’ve made good money, seen the world and have flown in some incredible parts of the World... and, flown some amazing aircraft... but, the biggest surprize of all was learning that my place in the world revolved around the meaningful work of being a career pilot on the DHC-6 seaplane... I also learned that things happen in life for a reason, and had I been hired back in 1998 too, I most likely would never have stayed at AC... so, the life lesson is to not measure success by what was not offered in life or, by what others have been offered, but by all the experiences one accumulates in the greater journey we call life... and being happy and content with what one has... if sitting at altitude watching clouds go by is your thing then all the power to you. I prefer to decide when and where I go to work, when I get time off and how long I want to work for each and every season... the constraints of schedules, bidding, and climbing a seniority ladder aren’t for me and I’m very happy that I realized this early on in my career!

You should know you sound like a bitter racist/misogynist, maybe they picked up on that in the interview.
I'm happy that your having fun on the otter. Those 'diversity' hires who you view as beneath you probably made over 200k last year just 'being along for the ride' and can retire at 60 with a 130k+ pension.
I'm a white heterosexual man with no airline family, I'm far from a unicorn in the crew room.

[Floatinghog]

Thanks for the illumination - no racism, misogyny or bitterness here brother... I stated facts. Facts that represent a snap shot in time of ACs former hiring practices before the current shortage. Those three people I mentioned are still good friends and we are still in contact - so, to expand on my point and to dissuade you from your corner of ignorance - they all told me that they are living an ‘existence’ at AC that is very far from the intentions of their career aspirations -and “would have been better off had they had a ‘normal’ career progression because it would have given them the experience, confidence and maturity to successfully navigate a course to a wide/narrow body Captain’s seat at AC”. Their words not mine: AC’s politically correct afirmative action hiring practices of the 1990’s did them no favors... further,
The Nepot (who I am still in contact with) told me that there is no pride in riding in on the shirt tails of his old man who went from F-104 driver right into AC... and, by the way - in case you missed the finer details of my post - I had a course date at AC twice - and declined based on the first few years salary... the Flight Ops Manager at the time who interviewed me earlier (on the second round of a successful application) called me at home after he had been informed that I declined my course date to ask me why... my response to him about the low salary resulted in him telling me: “I wish we had more guys like you with the courage to decline because it would result in us being able to provide a better starting salary to ALL new hires”... he also expanded by telling me that when he started in the early ‘70’s he made more in his first year then what he was offering me... and he also stated: “it was a f***ing embarassment” to be offering new hires the salary that they do... we parted ways on a friendly note... life is about choices; I made mine and had the luck of saying No twice. Do I regret it... no; am I jealous of others no - I realised early enough that pursuing something meaningful in life provides enjoyment which in turn brings happiness... and measuring your worth or value - which is reflective of your life’s choices - by the amount of money you earn is shallow, and limited in terms of scope... you not only do yourself a disservice but in turn do a disservice to society... pursue what is meaningful not what pays well. And BTW, I’m not doing too bad either flying an Otter... no jet lag, no cosmic radiation, no night flights, no over nights, no pressurized air and most importantly - a lifestyle and body rythym that very rarely fluxuates... you can’t put a price on that...
Oh before I forget - AC (and for that matter any airline) should have always been hiring based on competence not diversity or some other politically correct BS... your unicorn statement indicates you probably snuggle up to your Justin Trudeau doll for bed time...

[Sharklasers]

Thanks for the illumination - no racism, misogyny or bitterness here brother... I stated facts. Facts that represent a snap shot in time of ACs former hiring practices before the current shortage. Those three people I mentioned are still good friends and we are still in contact - so, to expand on my point and to dissuade you from your corner of ignorance - they all told me that they are living an ‘existence’ at AC that is very far from the intentions of their career aspirations -and “would have been better off had they had a ‘normal’ career progression because it would have given them the experience, confidence and maturity to successfully navigate a course to a wide/narrow body Captain’s seat at AC”. Their words not mine: AC’s politically correct afirmative action hiring practices of the 1990’s did them no favors... further,
The Nepot (who I am still in contact with) told me that there is no pride in riding in on the shirt tails of his old man who went from F-104 driver right into AC... and, by the way - in case you missed the finer details of my post - I had a course date at AC twice - and declined based on the first few years salary... the Flight Ops Manager at the time who interviewed me earlier (on the second round of a successful application) called me at home after he had been informed that I declined my course date to ask me why... my response to him about the low salary resulted in him telling me: “I wish we had more guys like you with the courage to decline because it would result in us being able to provide a better starting salary to ALL new hires”... he also expanded by telling me that when he started in the early ‘70’s he made more in his first year then what he was offering me... and he also stated: “it was a f***ing embarassment” to be offering new hires the salary that they do... we parted ways on a friendly note... life is about choices; I made mine and had the luck of saying No twice. Do I regret it... no; am I jealous of others no - I realised early enough that pursuing something meaningful in life provides enjoyment which in turn brings happiness... and measuring your worth or value - which is reflective of your life’s choices - by the amount of money you earn is shallow, and limited in terms of scope... you not only do yourself a disservice but in turn do a disservice to society... pursue what is meaningful not what pays well. And BTW, I’m not doing too bad either flying an Otter... no jet lag, no cosmic radiation, no night flights, no over nights, no pressurized air and most importantly - a lifestyle and body rythym that very rarely fluxuates... you can’t put a price on that...
Oh before I forget - AC (and for that matter any airline) should have always been hiring based on competence not diversity or some other politically correct BS... your unicorn statement indicates you probably snuggle up to your Justin Trudeau doll for bed time...

Doubling down on the racism and throwing in some political accusations I see.
It would probably break your heart to find out that most of the 90s hires were white unaffiliated men, not these 'colored' boogey men that took all the good jobs from hard working white-folk like yourself. But whatever helps you sleep at night man.
I'm sure for all your integrity the manager who you were talking to forgot all about you the second he hung up the phone and moved to the next name on the list.

As for my political affiliation; as if it mattered. I make too much money to vote liberal.

[Lightchop]

Because they aren't going anywhere, offer long term (we hope) career stability, pay more than the rest (in Canada) and have numerous options for many types of aircraft and routes to fly.

[Eric Janson]

You should know you sound like a bitter racist/misogynist, maybe they picked up on that in the interview.

I don't see any of that in Floatinghog's post. He's just posting facts.

I also know someone who was hired when there were far more qualified candidates available. It happened at Air Canada in the 90's - fact.

Doubling down on the racism and throwing in some political accusations I see.

Again I don't see this - just more facts being presented.

Labeling people just means you have no argument imho.

[pelmet]

Another interesting historical fact from 1998 - three colleagues were picked up and hired at AC from the same cadre of drivers I was working in/with - all had less time, less experience and NO university degree - I have a BSc. in Biology and at the time I was the only white male in the group... one was a white female from Vancouver, one was a Sikh male from Surrey, and the other a half Haitian colored male from Toronto... we all applied at the same time to Big Red. I was sent a letter from AC asking me politely to reapply when I reached 5000 hours and preferably with regional turboprop command hours... all the other three were hired at AC and started out on the DC-9 fleet. All three required ‘training to standard’... we are all still in contact and all three have informed me that they have letters on their files that they signed accepting life long F/O positions as each one failed all their respective command rides at various points along their individual careers at AC....

Thanks for the factual information.

I really find people(such as the one who responded to your post) who promote racism(such as hiring practices) and then accuse others of the same to be particularly repulsive personailties. The truth is harsh, but it is the truth and I appreciate some insight to AC's hiring practices which reflects on their commitment to safety(in conjunction with federal laws).

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Back in the 90s, if you were lucky enough to have Irene Henry change your diapers when you were a kid, you had it made. You could have also sent her flowers. I heard that one worked too.

[TheStig]

Pilots hired in the late 90's haven't had the easiest ride at Air Canada, but I suppose that applies to most pilots who have worked at 'Legacy Airlines' over the same period. The slow economy of the early 90's created a backlog of highly qualified pilots. The decade also saw the proliferation of regional and LCC's which put a lot of pressure on wages and working conditions. Into the next decade, September 11th and mergers throughout the industry and just when it seemed like thing were turning around oil prices sky rocket and the 'Great Recession' hit. Now with 10-15 years of service pilots hired in the mid-90's can see some daylight only to watch as the retirement age gets pushed back 5 years, and for Air Canada pilots, rouge start to take over the most sought after flying.

So, I guess what I'm really rambling on about is that, for the posters outside of AC who have watched their friends and colleagues at AC for the past 2 decades without envy, I can certainly see why you're satisfied with your own career choices. However, over half of Air Canada's pilots have been hired since 2006, and around 1000 who likely haven't had an ATPL for more than a decade things are very different, the airline hasn't seen any hiccups nor the industry. It's really a tale of two companies and lamenting about the hiring practices 20 years ago isn't really that relevant.

[Alcoholism]

Hey guys, Sharklasers is a SJW show him (sorry if I assumed his gender) some respect, otherwise you could get reported for being racist.