Central Mountain Air FO Pay

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bigred63
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Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by bigred63 »

Does anyone out there have any up to date information on FO pay at CMA?
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co-joe
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by co-joe »

I can't help you there, but I heard something troubling recently. Apparently they cancelled their PICUS program on purpose to make it more difficult for FOs to move on.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

co-joe wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:39 am I can't help you there, but I heard something troubling recently. Apparently they cancelled their PICUS program on purpose to make it more difficult for FOs to move on.
The lack of experienced training staff is probably apart of that problem. Doesn't Jazz have the same issue?

Cancelling PICUS isn't going to stop them from moving on right now.

S.
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co-joe
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by co-joe »

No, but cancelling it keeps them from getting their ATPL's.
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Lightchop
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Lightchop »

co-joe wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:05 am No, but cancelling it keeps them from getting their ATPL's.
I probably have an unpopular opinion, but getting an ATPL should involve some actual PIC experience. PICUS is silly and needs to go away.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Lightchop wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:43 am
co-joe wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:05 am No, but cancelling it keeps them from getting their ATPL's.
I probably have an unpopular opinion, but getting an ATPL should involve some actual PIC experience. PICUS is silly and needs to go away.
Agreed. You don't need an ATPL to sit left on a 1900 anyways. Two months in the winter on the 1900 and you've got all the night PIC you could every want for your AAs.

S.
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Lightchop
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Lightchop »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:48 am
Lightchop wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:43 am
co-joe wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:05 am No, but cancelling it keeps them from getting their ATPL's.
I probably have an unpopular opinion, but getting an ATPL should involve some actual PIC experience. PICUS is silly and needs to go away.
Agreed. You don't need an ATPL to sit left on a 1900 anyways. Two months in the winter on the 1900 and you've got all the night PIC you could every want for your AAs.

S.
And some valuable experience.
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altiplano
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by altiplano »

I agree on the PICUS comments.

PIC from the right seat isn't the same and should be tossed.

I am pretty positive that you do need an ATPL to be left seat on a 1900 in a Canadian commercial operation though, unless you have an exemption from Transport.

Has it changed?
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

altiplano wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:02 pm I agree on the PICUS comments.

PIC from the right seat isn't the same and should be tossed.

I am pretty positive that you do need an ATPL to be left seat on a 1900 in a Canadian commercial operation though, unless you have an exemption from Transport.

Has it changed?
I am under the understanding it has. The 1900D is technically a single pilot bird as per Transport Canada. A buddy of mine realized too late that the IATRA he wrote and thought he secured with a 1900D type doesn't stick and moving to the Crash 8 - had to rewrite it.

Some operators fly both the C and D or even the B, which in that case if you are cross trained, you will require your AAs.

Funny world we live in.

S.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by iflyforpie »

I don’t think the seat you occupy for PICUS matters at all. Learning how to start the engines and turn on the autofeather are things you can learn in upgrade training and line indoc.

What matters is what kind of duties and decision making abilities you are allowed as an FO. If you’re a radio and flaps operator only, then no. But if you’re conducting the flight at your initiative as PF, and calling out deviations it suggesting courses of action as PM, then yes, of course.

I don’t think that CMA is scrapping their PICUS program. I know they’re getting rid of their low timer program. They need retention and bodies to upgrade—PICUS gets two birds stoned at once.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
jt8d
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by jt8d »

They're not scrapping the program entirely... it's more so to prevent people from logging those valuable hours to credit towards their ATPL while they are applying to other operators without the intention of upgrading with CMA. Simple as that. You want PIC hours for ATPL? Bid for the 1900 captain position.
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Povertypack
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Povertypack »

bigred63 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:00 am Does anyone out there have any up to date information on FO pay at CMA?
As of December 2019
Dash level 3 FO is $42845.00/yr and 24month $20500.00 training bond

Don’t know what level one would be but definitely lower which is pretty awful.

As far as the 1900 Captain level 1 is $57500/yr and a 12 month $10000.00 training bond.
Level 5 1900 FO is $40800/yr

I don’t know what their “Competitive Compensation” is being compared to.
Honestly if you want to make more money and have a good schedule you’re better off as a garbage man
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Zaibatsu »

And in 20 years time you’re still a garbage man assuming city council hasn’t run off with all the property tax money or they don’t have robots doing your job while that pilot who was there for all of two or three years is commanding big jets for big money working less than half the month.

Nobody ever decides they want to work at CMA forever when they start. It’s a means to an ends. In and out.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by goingnowherefast »

Even if I'm working for somewhere, even for a couple years, it's nice to be paid an actual "Competitive Compensation", instead of lied to about the pay being competetive.

1900 captain elsewhere in Canada is really turning into a 100k/yr job with the average probably being dragged down to 90k (by CMA). Even if a CMA pilot is a 1900 captain for 2 years, they're going to be $65000 poorer just in those two years. (90,000-57,500)x2=65,000 minus the tax and you could probably buy a brand new entry level BMW with cash every 2 years with that salary difference!
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Zaibatsu »

I don’t think anyone is paying 57,000 for a 1900 captain in Canada in 2020.

I also don’t think anyone at a place where they are paying six figures for a 1900 capt is going to go from zero to hero in two or three years. Maybe Wasaya, but then you deserve it. Unless you’re coming in as a DEC in which case you’re going to be a lifer rather than move on because you probably already turned down Jazz or Encore. A bit better paid garbage man likely with a worse lifestyle.

What’s the ratio of BMWs going to look like between you and someone who’s a hundreds of numbers and possibly a recession ahead of you should you decide to stay or even if you decide to move on?
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7ECA
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by 7ECA »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:37 pm Even if I'm working for somewhere, even for a couple years, it's nice to be paid an actual "Competitive Compensation", instead of lied to about the pay being competetive.
Pay is on par with industry standard, and all that jazz is a load of BS.

The best line I ever heard from an exec./manager, when employees at a company were asking for a raise was; "...we're a destination employer..." :rolleyes:

Apparently, that means we can pay what ever we want to, because there's a steady stream of people who want to work for the company; nearly regardless of what the pay is. So, why should we raise wages for current employees when odds are the company can replace you.
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whoop_whoop
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by whoop_whoop »

Zaibatsu wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:05 pm I don’t think anyone is paying 57,000 for a 1900 captain in Canada in 2020.

I also don’t think anyone at a place where they are paying six figures for a 1900 capt is going to go from zero to hero in two or three years. Maybe Wasaya, but then you deserve it. Unless you’re coming in as a DEC in which case you’re going to be a lifer rather than move on because you probably already turned down Jazz or Encore. A bit better paid garbage man likely with a worse lifestyle.

What’s the ratio of BMWs going to look like between you and someone who’s a hundreds of numbers and possibly a recession ahead of you should you decide to stay or even if you decide to move on?
Pacific Coastal is paying $58,000 for a first year 1900 Captain.
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Povertypack
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by Povertypack »

Zaibatsu wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:05 pm I don’t think anyone is paying 57,000 for a 1900 captain in Canada in 2020.

I also don’t think anyone at a place where they are paying six figures for a 1900 capt is going to go from zero to hero in two or three years. Maybe Wasaya, but then you deserve it. Unless you’re coming in as a DEC in which case you’re going to be a lifer rather than move on because you probably already turned down Jazz or Encore. A bit better paid garbage man likely with a worse lifestyle.

What’s the ratio of BMWs going to look like between you and someone who’s a hundreds of numbers and possibly a recession ahead of you should you decide to stay or even if you decide to move on?
CMA IS paying 57000 for first year 1900 Captain as of January and it IS 2020
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by daedalusx »

CMA is again posting DECs 1900 for YLW base. Do they really expect anyone applying or sticking around if the pay is really bad below 60k ?
You know it’s going to be bad when they don’t post the pay scale in the job ads.
What a joke.
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Re: Central Mountain Air FO Pay

Post by ‘Bob’ »

“Ok people. We need pilots and we need them now. How do we attract them?”

“Well, they get to fly airplanes. Isn’t that enough?”

“Turns out our competition does that too and they pay better. Any other ideas?”

“We could give them interline passes that they will never be able to use because they will never have the time
or money to do so.”
“We could open a new base in a desirable but unaffordable and attract them with lifestyle.”
“We could give them a discount on company merchandise!”


“We could pay them more!”


“…………”


<SMASH> ….. AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaah!!!
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