Cathay Looking For Canadians

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Wooly Mammoth
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Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Wooly Mammoth » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:21 pm

Gents and Gals

Cathay is losing pilots at a prodigious rate. They are hunting hard to fill cockpits while at the same time eroding the conditions of service. Make no mistake, you do not want to work at Cathay. There are plenty of resources out there to help you learn why, suffice to say the place is not like it used to be.

Forewarned

Wooly
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mixturerich
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by mixturerich » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:48 pm

When will these companies realize that it really is all about the pilots, and not about the money? I’m not being sarcastic. If they took better care of their employees and compensated them fairly, they wouldn’t have run into this problem. Corporate greed always seem to f*ck everything up in the long run.

Seriously, if the compensation package over there was actually attractive, I might actually be inclined to leave this wonderful country and go live in China instead, but it’s not.
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altiplano
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:27 pm

I have no doubt that Cathay Pacific is not what it used to be...

But why are you still there then "Wooly Mamoth"?

And what draws you to this forum as a first post to forewarn Canadians that they don't want to work at Cathay?

My best guess? Cadet SO stuck under a training/upgrade freeze watching expats from Canada, Australia, whatever, come in DEFO on the 777 or 350 while you watch from the back seat.

Maybe I wrong, but I don't judge, everyone has there own self serving motives for sure.

If I was younger and single on a turboprop, or at a regional, or turned down at the large Canadian airlines and wanting a few years of new experience and a type rating I would certainly consider it... I've had lots of fun in HKG over the years. It's a good city, actually it's a great city, it might belong to China, but it's not 'China', plus great proximity for travel opportunities and a good climate. Certainly would offer a better lifestyle than as an expat in the ME or Mainland China IMO... If I was stuck on a northern base in a clapped out metro or something it would be an easy choice to head to HKG for a try. Easy to walk if it didn't work out and get a job back here...

Anyway, good luck with whatever is going on with the recent contract.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:50 pm

538000 SO and 825000 FO a year can't to be difficult even taking into account cost of living.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Sharklasers » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:20 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:50 pm
538000 SO and 825000 FO a year can't to be difficult even taking into account cost of living.
Those are Hong Kong Dollars,
So $110000 CAD.
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altiplano
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:02 pm

825K HKD? So roughly 150K CAD? Just to start I think?

I have a few FO buddies there and I'm pretty certain they were a fair bit higher than that but we haven't compared pay stubbs in a while...

They give you a pile of cash to set up in the city too when you join IIRC... Maybe equivalent $30K or something.

Plus a living allowance in a city priced similar or somewhat higher than YVR, but low taxes at least...

Anyways... If I were staring at the winter setting in in Fort Nowhere or Lake Bullshit with an ATPL, a few thousand hours, and no Jet operators calling me in Canada I know where I'd be applying... at least for the paid trip down there for an interview and cocktails... like a mini-adventure.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:18 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:20 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:50 pm
538000 SO and 825000 FO a year can't to be difficult even taking into account cost of living.
Those are Hong Kong Dollars,
So $110000 CAD.
Yeah roughly 95 and 130 cad respectively
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by daedalusx » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:28 pm

If Cathay, Emirates, Ethiad and others want Canadian pilots, they only need to do all of 3 things:
- Decent schedule work/family lifestyle
- Bring back pilot domiciles with confirmed commuting out of YVR, YYZ and maybe YYC and YUL. I believe a few Japanese carriers are doing it out of YVR with great success and they aren't bleeding crews like Emirates and others.
- Treat their crews fairly. There's been a lot of complaints on how some overseas carriers treat their expats crews as they see them as totally replaceable part of a big machine.

That's it ... Because they wouldn't have to pay a whole lot to beat the Canadian industry standard wages and make it very attractive but for a Canadian airline pilot, if you leave, it's very difficult to come back at the bottom of the ladder, so the risk vs reward has to considered.
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munzil
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by munzil » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:07 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:02 pm
825K HKD? So roughly 150K CAD? Just to start I think?

I have a few FO buddies there and I'm pretty certain they were a fair bit higher than that but we haven't compared pay stubbs in a while...

They give you a pile of cash to set up in the city too when you join IIRC... Maybe equivalent $30K or something.

Plus a living allowance in a city priced similar or somewhat higher than YVR, but low taxes at least...

Anyways... If I were staring at the winter setting in in Fort Nowhere or Lake Bullshit with an ATPL, a few thousand hours, and no Jet operators calling me in Canada I know where I'd be applying... at least for the paid trip down there for an interview and cocktails... like a mini-adventure.
Having lived in HKG, it is far more expensive than Vancouver. Vancouver doesn't even come close. Also take into account the size of an apartment there they are far smaller than Vancouver.

I lived there for ten years, and there were two types of expats. Those that loved HKG and those that despised it. You will never hear from the former on these forums.

It's a fucking great place, but not one where I would raise a family and live on just an ok salary.

Cathay is far from the airline it used to be ..which was one of the top in the world.
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A V I A T O
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by A V I A T O » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:59 pm

Visited HKG last summer. Approx $4000 USD for a 450 sqft apartment, in Central HK, near a metro station that would get you to the airport in 90 mins or so.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Hilroy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:48 pm

Aren't they just hiring captains? I have a hard time thinking Cathay is short of FO/SO...
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trey kule
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by trey kule » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:32 pm

Its been a few years for me, but keep in mind that when you talk salary, HK has ( or used to have) a top tax rate of 10%. Its not always what you earn, but what is left in your pocket.
$110k with 10% tax as opposed to Canadian tax rates...

Also, they have a couple of feeders...interesting they are now doing direct entry other than cadets.

Hong Kong is a great place for expat pilots. Great for their kids. Not always great for spouses.
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altiplano
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:44 am

Agreed that rent is higher in HKG.

Cathay does provide a subsidy too which may not fully cover a place in Central, but would in some areas... or at least offset it... Here in Canada we're on our own as rents in YVR/YYZ and property values skyrocket and completely remove themselves from any regional income correlation.

Also, except for maybe a golf cart in DB, much is cheaper in HKG...

Coupled with higher average incomes, low income tax, and no sales tax... I think you can make a comparison.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by C-GGGQ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:30 am

Hilroy wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:48 pm
Aren't they just hiring captains? I have a hard time thinking Cathay is short of FO/SO...
According to the website, direct entry FO and SO as well as cadets (hk Pr only for cadets)
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TailwheelPilot
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by TailwheelPilot » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:08 pm

Not sure if it is accurate, over on pprune someone said the new pay scale all new hires get (the third or fourth scale, with significant reductions) can be amended unilaterally by the company. Something to bear in mind.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by trey kule » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:38 pm

Visited HKG last summer. Approx $4000 USD for a 450 sqft apartment, in Central HK, near a metro station that would get you to the airport in 90 mins or so.
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Why , as a pilot, would you live in HK central?

Discovery Bay is alot closer by bus or car from the airport. Amazing place to live. And cheaper.
Lots and lots of pilots living there.
I am not sure why someone does not think it is good for kids. Schools are top notch.
The only downside I saw to fanily life was bored pilots’ wives who spent their days playing tennis and sitting around drinking coffee. And yes, a target rich environment for the Charlie Harpers amongst us.

I agree that there really are only two camps . Unfortunately some come with the idea it is a great adventure and have only visited, but never actually lived in a foreign culture. For many of them, after the first month or two, they are never happy. Terrible way to go through life.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Speedalive » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm

Here's the new contract. It's not as good as it used to be, but it's still miles better than anything on offer here, especially if you're sitting at 1000-1500 hours with your ATPL and are single (you only need 750 with the SAMRA/SARON written to apply). I can see myself applying. There are some sketchy things in the contract though. The company can can quite literally change anything on a whim, including pay, and apparently the union can't negotiate on behalf of anyone hired on this contract unless the company says so which is weird, but it's pretty much the same at Emirates/Etihad/Qatar (they don't even have a union to begin with). Part of being an expat I suppose. The rent prices in HK are pretty crazy for what you get, but it's understandable given the city's geography. It's not uncommon to see a 500 square foot apartment going for $20,000HKD/month. The prices are high for everything else in general too, but the salary is commensurate with that. The upgrade times from SO to FO are sitting at 5 years, but on step 1 SO pay, you'll be paid a minimum of $45,383.33HKD/month ($92,957.77CAD/year) (Working just the minimum monthly block hours + Pilot allowance) so it's not so bad. If you were to work 80 hours per month on the Airbus, you'd be looking at $68440.61HKD/month or $140185.53CAD/year. Obviously living costs are more, but you'll be far better off than working at Jazz barely scratching 40k per year and being forced to live within 90 mins of the airport in a major city. Living in Hong Kong would be sweet too. It's not for everyone of course, but if you do your research to know what you're getting yourself into, I imagine you'll be happier.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Boreas » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:57 pm

If the choice is between Jazz and Cathay, as it stands right now and assuming your relatively young and single, Cathay wins hands down.

That being said, the geopolitical situation in Asia doesn't have the best outlook. One can easily end up having to "retreat" to Canada after 5 years as an SO at Cathay... without any additional flight experience to show for it...
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:11 pm

trey kule wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:38 pm
Why , as a pilot, would you live in HK central?
trey kule wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:38 pm
Discovery Bay is alot closer by bus or car from the airport. Amazing place to live. And cheaper.
Lots and lots of pilots living there.
You answered your own question...

Not everyone wants to live with a bunch of pilots in the suburbs... I see the attraction of some things in DB, esp. with a family, but if I was young in HKG I'd want to live where it's at... and that's on the Island... even now, I'm getting old and I'd prefer being in it...
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by MarkyMark90 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Any record of Cathay hiring canadians with 750 hours and ATPL written??

I might be interested
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:49 pm

Speedalive wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
...on step 1 SO pay, you'll be paid a minimum of $45,383.33HKD/month ($92,957.77CAD/year) (Working just the minimum monthly block hours + Pilot allowance) so it's not so bad. If you were to work 80 hours per month on the Airbus, you'd be looking at $68440.61HKD/month or $140185.53CAD/year.
I think you mean step one FO pay, because the SO pay starts at 31383, or $64359 CAD annually; if you're paying $20000/month for rent, that doesn't leave much else. The new FO rate is actually a little higher at $48125, which works out to a good salary, but again almost half of that will go to rent. The cost of living in general is higher too: food tends to be a little more expensive than in Canada, and alcohol is much more.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Speedalive » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:49 pm
I think you mean step one FO pay, because the SO pay starts at 31383, or $64359 CAD annually; if you're paying $20000/month for rent, that doesn't leave much else. The new FO rate is actually a little higher at $48125, which works out to a good salary, but again almost half of that will go to rent. The cost of living in general is higher too: food tends to be a little more expensive than in Canada, and alcohol is much more.
Nope.
In the "Conditions of Service Document it says:

"An Officer shall be entitled to the following remuneration:
 basic monthly salary,
 monthly productivity pay, ([Actual Block Hours less Minimum Monthly Block Hours] x Block Hour Rate), and
 annual productivity bonus ([Aggregate Annual Block Hours less Target Annual Block Hours] x [0.5 x Block Hour Rate])."

So using Step 1 SO rates and the airbus as an example, if you just worked the bare minimum 49 block hours per month, you get paid 31,383.33HKD per month plus the 14k pilot allowance which is $45,383.33HKD/month. If you work more than 49 hours over the course of the month, you get paid an additional monthly productivity pay. If you work more than 840 hours over the course of the year, you also get the annual productivity bonus.

So if you used my 80 hours example, you get the basic 45,383.33HKD/month as well as the monthly productivity pay of 19,854.88HKD (31 hours in excess of 49 hours x 640.48HKD) which gives you 65238.21HKD/month. If you did 80 hours per month for the whole year, that would give you 960 hours. That's 120 hours more than the annual target of 840 which results in an annual bonus of 38428.80/year (120 hours x half the block hour rate of 640.48). So that would give you 821287.32HKD/year (140,185.53 CAD). 5-10% gets taken off for the provident fund and tax of course..

I could be wrong with my math. Happy to be corrected cause I'm hoping to go here someday. Looking for realistic expectations!
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by munzil » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:51 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:11 pm
trey kule wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:38 pm
Why , as a pilot, would you live in HK central?
trey kule wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:38 pm
Discovery Bay is alot closer by bus or car from the airport. Amazing place to live. And cheaper.
Lots and lots of pilots living there.
You answered your own question...

Not everyone wants to live with a bunch of pilots in the suburbs... I see the attraction of some things in DB, esp. with a family, but if I was young in HKG I'd want to live where it's at... and that's on the Island... even now, I'm getting old and I'd prefer being in it...
Couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't stand DB, it was just like the suburbs in the west. Lamma Island, Shek o, Sai Kung etc were the places to be for those who actually enjoyed hk
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by Dingbatt » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:08 am

MarkyMark90 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:41 pm
Any record of Cathay hiring canadians with 750 hours and ATPL written??

I might be interested
I was hired with 700hrs and no ATPLs written. Man they'll take anyone with a pulse at this point. Company are desperately short. Still not worth it.
Boreas wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:57 pm
If the choice is between Jazz and Cathay, as it stands right now and assuming your relatively young and single, Cathay wins hands down.

That being said, the geopolitical situation in Asia doesn't have the best outlook. One can easily end up having to "retreat" to Canada after 5 years as an SO at Cathay... without any additional flight experience to show for it...
I completely disagree. 4 years have gone by for me at Cathay and not going to Jazz was a disastrous mistake. When I was hired, Jazz wouldn't look at me, but now it seems Jazz are recruiting much more. Its far more money at Cathay; but it doesn't go very far in HK. I'm desperately trying to get back to Canada, after a logbook filled with 4 years of SO P2X time which isn't even worth the paper its written on. Plus, if you got hired now you'd be on the new contract.

Everyone can make their own decisions, but there is plenty of info on PPrne for reasons pilots are pouring out of Cathay.
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Re: Cathay Looking For Canadians

Post by MarkyMark90 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:01 am

Dingbatt wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:08 am
after a logbook filled with 4 years of SO P2X time which isn't even worth the paper its written on.
4 years and you’re still not upgradable as a FO ?
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