Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

jwaran90
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:36 pm

Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jwaran90 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:53 pm

Good evening gents and ladies.

I was hoping to start a discussion regarding what is the current realistic total time required for a competitive application at either Jazz or Encore as of TODAY. The end goal is to hang the hat at Jazz/Encore or to eventually flow to either AC or WJ respectively.

I know a lot of these factors are dependent on internal recs and aviation diplomas/degrees. I have neither of these.

A little about me and why I am asking.
I am 29 and a Canadian Citizen. I have a undergraduate and masters degree in Finance. Both obtained from Canadian Universities. I do not speak French.

I have always been passionate about flying (was accepted to the Science and Aviation at UWaterloo way back in 2008/9) but at the time my family did not have the additional money to pay for flight lessons on top of tuition. I had to fund university myself actually so in 2008 (with an expected graduation in 2013) it definitely was the safer route to go in terms of opportunities/pay for graduates (finance vs aviation).

A lot of virtual ink has been used writing about the pilot shortage (and I have read A LOT of articles) but it seems like the majority of need is in the mid-career level for pilots. The 3K-5K pilots seem to be very much in demand. That still leaves a considerable about of time-building between 1K to 3K and even more difficult time building from 250 - 1000 hours.

What would be competitive today? I'd like to revisit this discussion every few quarters or months to see if the pilot shortage intensifies or alleviates.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
---------- ADS -----------
  

JBI
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYZ / LGA

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by JBI » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:58 am

At the moment, without an Aviation College or Aviation University background, 1000 hours TT is still the general minimums. I know at Encore there have been recent hires with exactly 1000 hours. In addition, although the bulk of new hires have some IFR time on either turbine aircraft or a Navajo, there have been some new hires whose previous experience was only instructing.

I'm less certain about the situation at Jazz at the moment. I know that Jazz has a more robust agreement with flight colleges so there are a higher percentage of new hires who are grads from various programs. For the regular OTS candidates, it seems like they are still looking for 1000+ TT with some IFR background. But perhaps someone with additional information can clarify.

As many will outline here, there are plenty of other options outside of Encore and Jazz which will still provide career progression to AC/WJ as well as a good life style. So while Jazz and Encore are great options, I wouldn't necessarily rule out other options.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pilot4hire
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:16 am

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by pilot4hire » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:17 am

Hello,

I have an aviation degree, had just above 800TT, 100 multi turbine. Disclaimer, I fit one of the minority boxes.
I went through the hiring process for both Jazz and Encore in fall 2018. Placed in hiring pool for both, Encore insisted they will only hire me once I passed the 1000TT threshold, to my knowledge Jazz required minimum 750TT from OTS, and want 1000TT or 750TT with multi turbine experience. My hire class at Jazz consisted of a few fresh college grads, 1000TT+ instructors, and 1000TT+ 703/704 multi turbine FOs. It was explained to me that the interview is heavily weighted by both employers.

Hope this information helps.

Cheers!
---------- ADS -----------
  

jwaran90
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:36 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jwaran90 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:37 pm

Thanks for the replies Pilot4hire and JBI!

Not sure about the minority aspect. I am a male and a visible minority. Is that what you are referring to?

I have a pretty good career (read: stable but boring) now so I will finish all of my ratings and then instruct on the weekends/evenings while I continue to work full time. I will add on additional solo flight time in order to accrue hours faster.

I know that the hiring/economic cycle is not guaranteed to keep stable for the next 3-4 years while I build hours. However, as everyone on this forum knows, the investment in obtaining the CPL is not small and I really like to have as much information as possible. (My apologies as variants of similar threads pop-up from time to time).

In other "Pilot Pool" or "Hiring" threads people mention that there are GS students with 3K-5K+ TT. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the hiring minimums (750 TT at Jazz) were just that. Are ground schools on average admitting FOs with an average of 1000 hours? 1500 hours? 2000 hours?

Would the 1000 TT as mainly an instructor be a competitive application at both of these airlines without an internal rec? Or as these the exception as opposed to the rule?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hilroy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Hilroy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:03 pm

I'm also interested by this post.

I've been updating my profile, hoping one day to have a callback. :o
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Hilroy on Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Master of Cessna 172
It has been 0 days since I've almost died in an airplane.
Never trust a student with fuel and oil.

User avatar
jpilot77
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: North of YMX

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jpilot77 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:17 pm

Hilroy said:
Currently flying 704 multi turbine engine, just north of 400 hrs with 100+ hrs on PT6s.
So you’ve been at your current job for like 2 months?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:11 pm

:lol:
But bonds are bad and a safety concern. As opposed to the herd mentality stampede of kids with no experience flooding the ranks of regionals.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Peachtrees
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Peachtrees » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:04 am

I'm also a low time FO trying for one of the mainstream reagionals in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Peachtrees on Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

snowcone
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:02 am

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by snowcone » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:56 pm

jwaran90 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:37 pm
Thanks for the replies Pilot4hire and JBI!

Not sure about the minority aspect. I am a male and a visible minority. Is that what you are referring to?

I have a pretty good career (read: stable but boring) now so I will finish all of my ratings and then instruct on the weekends/evenings while I continue to work full time. I will add on additional solo flight time in order to accrue hours faster.

I know that the hiring/economic cycle is not guaranteed to keep stable for the next 3-4 years while I build hours. However, as everyone on this forum knows, the investment in obtaining the CPL is not small and I really like to have as much information as possible. (My apologies as variants of similar threads pop-up from time to time).

In other "Pilot Pool" or "Hiring" threads people mention that there are GS students with 3K-5K+ TT. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the hiring minimums (750 TT at Jazz) were just that. Are ground schools on average admitting FOs with an average of 1000 hours? 1500 hours? 2000 hours?

Would the 1000 TT as mainly an instructor be a competitive application at both of these airlines without an internal rec? Or as these the exception as opposed to the rule?
In Brampton a Caucasian individual is the minority, so if you live there.....click the box!
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am

Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by sstaurus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:16 am

Image

#livinthedream
---------- ADS -----------
  

jt8d
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:18 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jt8d » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:29 am

Hahaha.. just missing the pilot cap ;)
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
bearitus
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:17 am

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by bearitus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:56 am

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
Exactly, lifetime earnings will be far higher for these young broke 22 year old kids at regionals today especially if the industry keeps moving like it is.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by sstaurus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:10 pm

Just don’t forget, that ‘200k’ is always, ‘just down the road’. And management is laughing all the way to the bank as they keep dragging that carrot by a string.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 pm

bearitus wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:56 am
mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
Exactly, lifetime earnings will be far higher for these young broke 22 year old kids at regionals today especially if the industry keeps moving like it is.
Exactly plus it’s the time on the bigger equipment that’s always been the most valuable no matter which way you spin it. There are so many opportunities right now to get into large aircraft, and large aircraft happen to pay the most.

I’m just trying to make a point here. People are still free to pick the type of operation and machinery they want to fly. It’s all personal preference what direction they want to try to point their career. It’s not all about money but you have to be realistic about what kind of lifestyle you want to have when you get old.
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
You couldn't be further off base about what I think, so don't put words into my mouth. And listen, if the almighty dollar is the ultimate for you, then the real money is overseas. But hey, if riding a seniority number into retirement is your idea of the good life, go for it. I'm not bitter about anyone doing whatever they want with their careers. I'm just saying there are ways to make a good living while still developing a resume that will get you where you want to go. I only get bitter when they bitch about not making enough money while they haven't gone anywhere or done anything to deserve more. Don't like making $37k/yr to sit right seat in a Q4 out of YYZ? Do something about it. But until you do don't complain. Unlike what your mom told you, you're not special. There's literally a thousand of you. Go make yourself worth more.
It’s not all about money but you have to be realistic about what kind of lifestyle you want to have when you get old.
I'm looking forward to looking back with gratitude that I never had the aviation equivalent of a cubicle job.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:44 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm
I only get bitter when they bitch about not making enough money while they haven't gone anywhere or done anything to deserve more. Don't like making $37k/yr to sit right seat in a Q4 out of YYZ? Do something about it. But until you do don't complain. Unlike what your mom told you, you're not special. There's literally a thousand of you. Go make yourself worth more.
I don’t disagree, those young entitled little shits that complain all the time don’t realize Jazz/Encore/etc is literally so many people’s dream job. But I don’t actually think there are too many of those kinds of people. The few just stand out and can be very vocal. That being said, most people I know love it and are happy and grateful. Toronto is a cesspool of grumpy complainers, but outside of there, the morale amongst regional/mainline pilots seems to be very, very good overall, which is impressive considering it’s your idea of an “aviation cubicle job”.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hilroy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Hilroy » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:10 pm

How (&%(#%@# difficult is it to simply answer the question and stop whining about everything in life?

The question was how many hours, not please give me your opinion on the new recruits.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
---------- ADS -----------
  
Master of Cessna 172
It has been 0 days since I've almost died in an airplane.
Never trust a student with fuel and oil.

User avatar
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5046
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Rowdy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:21 am

Hilroy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:10 pm
How (&%(#%@# difficult is it to simply answer the question and stop whining about everything in life?

The question was how many hours, not please give me your opinion on the new recruits.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
From watching the new hire class lists and flying with many on the line, we've hired as low as 500TT. Id say the average non pathways/college/whateverprogram though is still over 1000TT. Someone mentioned there was a Multi target but I think thats just speculation.

With the continuous movement and many other factors, I would not be surprised to see the hiring reach the bare minimums sans college program. Again, the hiring is still based heavily towards personality and trainability, not as much on total times.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:38 pm

... anyway.. rant over... Seems like the industry is breeding more Air France Bonins day by day.... sighhh.
What is a "" Air France Bonin "" ?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hilroy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Hilroy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:07 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:38 pm
... anyway.. rant over... Seems like the industry is breeding more Air France Bonins day by day.... sighhh.
What is a "" Air France Bonin "" ?
Bonin is the pilot that got blamed for the crash of AF447, unable to recover from a stall at cruising altitude. He still had 3000 hours under his belt...
---------- ADS -----------
  
Master of Cessna 172
It has been 0 days since I've almost died in an airplane.
Never trust a student with fuel and oil.

smooth
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by smooth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:14 pm

I applied Porter and Encore and Jazz right at 1000 hours, i got offer for Encore and Porter. Never got a answer from Jazz, i've heard Jazz is looking for more multi engine which i didn't have.
---------- ADS -----------
  

jwaran90
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:36 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jwaran90 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:35 am

smooth wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:14 pm
I applied Porter and Encore and Jazz right at 1000 hours, i got offer for Encore and Porter. Never got a answer from Jazz, i've heard Jazz is looking for more multi engine which i didn't have.
Hi Smooth,

Thanks for the information. Can you give a bit of colour regarding how you built those hours and your background (aviation college/university)? Also did you have any internal recommendations or was it a full OTS/blind application to the HR Team.

Cheers
JW
---------- ADS -----------
  

trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4533
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by trey kule » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:32 am

maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference.
The majors dont give a rat’s patutti about bond jumping, or screwing your previous employer.
They need a pilot. You fit the profile. You’re hired.

Priority one is a family member working for the company already. Hours in the log book place a very distant second...or third , or fourth. Pilots often forget this and think log book time is the key. It isn’t.

Hours, for the most part are a check the box item, although they have some problems lately with pilots not qualifying for upgrade. Something the pilots knew going in. So the 1000 hours makes sense as a new hire can get their ATPL and be upgradeable without having to resort to one of the many “ get to 250PIC” options.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Everyone is a genius in hindsight

Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”