Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

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jwaran90
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Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jwaran90 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:53 pm

Good evening gents and ladies.

I was hoping to start a discussion regarding what is the current realistic total time required for a competitive application at either Jazz or Encore as of TODAY. The end goal is to hang the hat at Jazz/Encore or to eventually flow to either AC or WJ respectively.

I know a lot of these factors are dependent on internal recs and aviation diplomas/degrees. I have neither of these.

A little about me and why I am asking.
I am 29 and a Canadian Citizen. I have a undergraduate and masters degree in Finance. Both obtained from Canadian Universities. I do not speak French.

I have always been passionate about flying (was accepted to the Science and Aviation at UWaterloo way back in 2008/9) but at the time my family did not have the additional money to pay for flight lessons on top of tuition. I had to fund university myself actually so in 2008 (with an expected graduation in 2013) it definitely was the safer route to go in terms of opportunities/pay for graduates (finance vs aviation).

A lot of virtual ink has been used writing about the pilot shortage (and I have read A LOT of articles) but it seems like the majority of need is in the mid-career level for pilots. The 3K-5K pilots seem to be very much in demand. That still leaves a considerable about of time-building between 1K to 3K and even more difficult time building from 250 - 1000 hours.

What would be competitive today? I'd like to revisit this discussion every few quarters or months to see if the pilot shortage intensifies or alleviates.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by JBI » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:58 am

At the moment, without an Aviation College or Aviation University background, 1000 hours TT is still the general minimums. I know at Encore there have been recent hires with exactly 1000 hours. In addition, although the bulk of new hires have some IFR time on either turbine aircraft or a Navajo, there have been some new hires whose previous experience was only instructing.

I'm less certain about the situation at Jazz at the moment. I know that Jazz has a more robust agreement with flight colleges so there are a higher percentage of new hires who are grads from various programs. For the regular OTS candidates, it seems like they are still looking for 1000+ TT with some IFR background. But perhaps someone with additional information can clarify.

As many will outline here, there are plenty of other options outside of Encore and Jazz which will still provide career progression to AC/WJ as well as a good life style. So while Jazz and Encore are great options, I wouldn't necessarily rule out other options.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by pilot4hire » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:17 am

Hello,

I have an aviation degree, had just above 800TT, 100 multi turbine. Disclaimer, I fit one of the minority boxes.
I went through the hiring process for both Jazz and Encore in fall 2018. Placed in hiring pool for both, Encore insisted they will only hire me once I passed the 1000TT threshold, to my knowledge Jazz required minimum 750TT from OTS, and want 1000TT or 750TT with multi turbine experience. My hire class at Jazz consisted of a few fresh college grads, 1000TT+ instructors, and 1000TT+ 703/704 multi turbine FOs. It was explained to me that the interview is heavily weighted by both employers.

Hope this information helps.

Cheers!
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jwaran90 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:37 pm

Thanks for the replies Pilot4hire and JBI!

Not sure about the minority aspect. I am a male and a visible minority. Is that what you are referring to?

I have a pretty good career (read: stable but boring) now so I will finish all of my ratings and then instruct on the weekends/evenings while I continue to work full time. I will add on additional solo flight time in order to accrue hours faster.

I know that the hiring/economic cycle is not guaranteed to keep stable for the next 3-4 years while I build hours. However, as everyone on this forum knows, the investment in obtaining the CPL is not small and I really like to have as much information as possible. (My apologies as variants of similar threads pop-up from time to time).

In other "Pilot Pool" or "Hiring" threads people mention that there are GS students with 3K-5K+ TT. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the hiring minimums (750 TT at Jazz) were just that. Are ground schools on average admitting FOs with an average of 1000 hours? 1500 hours? 2000 hours?

Would the 1000 TT as mainly an instructor be a competitive application at both of these airlines without an internal rec? Or as these the exception as opposed to the rule?
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Hilroy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:03 pm

I'm also interested by this post.

I've been updating my profile, hoping one day to have a callback. :o
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jpilot77 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:17 pm

Hilroy said:
Currently flying 704 multi turbine engine, just north of 400 hrs with 100+ hrs on PT6s.
So you’ve been at your current job for like 2 months?
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:11 pm

:lol:
But bonds are bad and a safety concern. As opposed to the herd mentality stampede of kids with no experience flooding the ranks of regionals.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Peachtrees » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:04 am

I'm also a low time FO trying for one of the mainstream reagionals in Canada.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by snowcone » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:56 pm

jwaran90 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:37 pm
Thanks for the replies Pilot4hire and JBI!

Not sure about the minority aspect. I am a male and a visible minority. Is that what you are referring to?

I have a pretty good career (read: stable but boring) now so I will finish all of my ratings and then instruct on the weekends/evenings while I continue to work full time. I will add on additional solo flight time in order to accrue hours faster.

I know that the hiring/economic cycle is not guaranteed to keep stable for the next 3-4 years while I build hours. However, as everyone on this forum knows, the investment in obtaining the CPL is not small and I really like to have as much information as possible. (My apologies as variants of similar threads pop-up from time to time).

In other "Pilot Pool" or "Hiring" threads people mention that there are GS students with 3K-5K+ TT. I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the hiring minimums (750 TT at Jazz) were just that. Are ground schools on average admitting FOs with an average of 1000 hours? 1500 hours? 2000 hours?

Would the 1000 TT as mainly an instructor be a competitive application at both of these airlines without an internal rec? Or as these the exception as opposed to the rule?
In Brampton a Caucasian individual is the minority, so if you live there.....click the box!
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jt8d » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm

I'm shocked how pilots these days have no integrity... and no patience... jumping on bonds to go regional ASAP before they've truly learned the fundamentals of flying! Sad state of affairs... if I were an employer and took a gamble on you as a new hire 250TT know-nothing.. where the f@#$ is the gratitude? Unless the flying is ultra sketch and you have wild safety concerns... you owe it to your employer to finish your bond.. maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference. You really shouldn't be applying anywhere til your obligation to your employer is nearly fulfilled. Take some time to smell the roses kids... seems like most pilots lack the true passion for flying and just wanna wear an airline cap for instagram.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by flyingcanuck » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:23 pm

jt8d wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
I'm shocked how pilots these days have no integrity... and no patience... jumping on bonds to go regional ASAP before they've truly learned the fundamentals of flying! Sad state of affairs... if I were an employer and took a gamble on you as a new hire 250TT know-nothing.. where the f@#$ is the gratitude? Unless the flying is ultra sketch and you have wild safety concerns... you owe it to your employer to finish your bond.. maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference. You really shouldn't be applying anywhere til your obligation to your employer is nearly fulfilled. Take some time to smell the roses kids... seems like most pilots lack the true passion for flying and just wanna wear an airline cap for instagram.
Not that I want to go down this rabbit hole BUT lets be real, its also an excuse to not pay a decent wage. If the employer has no real commitment to the pilots, I don't see why they should either. Here's a bond for 10k plus 30k a year to live in shitty expensive towns.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jt8d » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:08 pm

And what would be a reasonable pay for a 250TT pilot? If you have no experience to bring to the table, you don't deserve some 50K salary as a 400TT FO.. these very 2 regionals have perpetuated the race to the bottom... so why is everyone wanting to jump onboard? Tell me.. why is a 2 year bond so hard to swallow? It's 2 years!! How people can't fulfill a 1-year commitment is ridiculous... actions like this bring down the whole industry. I've seen it happen over n over and have nil respect for these kind of people... who were so grateful to get that job but.. but.. grass is always greener? NO

... anyway.. rant over... Seems like the industry is breeding more Air France Bonins day by day.... sighhh.. don't be in such a rush people!
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by fish4life » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm

flyingcanuck wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:23 pm
jt8d wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm
I'm shocked how pilots these days have no integrity... and no patience... jumping on bonds to go regional ASAP before they've truly learned the fundamentals of flying! Sad state of affairs... if I were an employer and took a gamble on you as a new hire 250TT know-nothing.. where the f@#$ is the gratitude? Unless the flying is ultra sketch and you have wild safety concerns... you owe it to your employer to finish your bond.. maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference. You really shouldn't be applying anywhere til your obligation to your employer is nearly fulfilled. Take some time to smell the roses kids... seems like most pilots lack the true passion for flying and just wanna wear an airline cap for instagram.
Not that I want to go down this rabbit hole BUT lets be real, its also an excuse to not pay a decent wage. If the employer has no real commitment to the pilots, I don't see why they should either. Here's a bond for 10k plus 30k a year to live in shitty expensive towns.
I don’t think anyone flying a ATR is making 30k a year, they are most likely getting paid more than jazz or encore pays
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am

Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by sstaurus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:16 am

Image

#livinthedream
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jt8d » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:29 am

Hahaha.. just missing the pilot cap ;)
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by bearitus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:56 am

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
Exactly, lifetime earnings will be far higher for these young broke 22 year old kids at regionals today especially if the industry keeps moving like it is.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by sstaurus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:10 pm

Just don’t forget, that ‘200k’ is always, ‘just down the road’. And management is laughing all the way to the bank as they keep dragging that carrot by a string.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by jt8d » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:44 pm

I'm sorry but why are people so fixated on missing out on some final 3 years of 200k pay 25 years down the road? 25 years at AC.. or 28 years... what's the difference? If your retirement is hurt by those 3 years then you messed up with your money wayyyy earlier on. Smell the roses people. Everyone is always in such a rush. If you got into flying for "lifetime earnings", maybe you're in it for the wrong reason.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 pm

bearitus wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:56 am
mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am
Therein lies part of the problem. Most of these kids don't want to go where the real money is. God forbid they should strike out on their own and leave mommy and daddy's back yard. They'd rather stay at home for half the money and then bitch about not making enough and believe it's all somebody else's fault.
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
Exactly, lifetime earnings will be far higher for these young broke 22 year old kids at regionals today especially if the industry keeps moving like it is.
Exactly plus it’s the time on the bigger equipment that’s always been the most valuable no matter which way you spin it. There are so many opportunities right now to get into large aircraft, and large aircraft happen to pay the most.

I’m just trying to make a point here. People are still free to pick the type of operation and machinery they want to fly. It’s all personal preference what direction they want to try to point their career. It’s not all about money but you have to be realistic about what kind of lifestyle you want to have when you get old.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 am
Actually the real money is at the majors. Just down the road. So the “kids” are doing it right to get a seniority number. Make $40k flying props for a good chance at $200k down the road flying jets. Rather than starting at $70k but with a $120k cap for most of their career. Makes sense to me anyways.

This won’t stop your bitterness and resentment towards the “kids” though. In your mind their is no justifying short term sacrifice for long term gain.
You couldn't be further off base about what I think, so don't put words into my mouth. And listen, if the almighty dollar is the ultimate for you, then the real money is overseas. But hey, if riding a seniority number into retirement is your idea of the good life, go for it. I'm not bitter about anyone doing whatever they want with their careers. I'm just saying there are ways to make a good living while still developing a resume that will get you where you want to go. I only get bitter when they bitch about not making enough money while they haven't gone anywhere or done anything to deserve more. Don't like making $37k/yr to sit right seat in a Q4 out of YYZ? Do something about it. But until you do don't complain. Unlike what your mom told you, you're not special. There's literally a thousand of you. Go make yourself worth more.
It’s not all about money but you have to be realistic about what kind of lifestyle you want to have when you get old.
I'm looking forward to looking back with gratitude that I never had the aviation equivalent of a cubicle job.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by mixturerich » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:44 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm
I only get bitter when they bitch about not making enough money while they haven't gone anywhere or done anything to deserve more. Don't like making $37k/yr to sit right seat in a Q4 out of YYZ? Do something about it. But until you do don't complain. Unlike what your mom told you, you're not special. There's literally a thousand of you. Go make yourself worth more.
I don’t disagree, those young entitled little shits that complain all the time don’t realize Jazz/Encore/etc is literally so many people’s dream job. But I don’t actually think there are too many of those kinds of people. The few just stand out and can be very vocal. That being said, most people I know love it and are happy and grateful. Toronto is a cesspool of grumpy complainers, but outside of there, the morale amongst regional/mainline pilots seems to be very, very good overall, which is impressive considering it’s your idea of an “aviation cubicle job”.
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Hilroy » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:10 pm

How (&%(#%@# difficult is it to simply answer the question and stop whining about everything in life?

The question was how many hours, not please give me your opinion on the new recruits.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
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Re: Realistic TT for Jazz or Encore?

Post by Rowdy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:21 am

Hilroy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:10 pm
How (&%(#%@# difficult is it to simply answer the question and stop whining about everything in life?

The question was how many hours, not please give me your opinion on the new recruits.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
From watching the new hire class lists and flying with many on the line, we've hired as low as 500TT. Id say the average non pathways/college/whateverprogram though is still over 1000TT. Someone mentioned there was a Multi target but I think thats just speculation.

With the continuous movement and many other factors, I would not be surprised to see the hiring reach the bare minimums sans college program. Again, the hiring is still based heavily towards personality and trainability, not as much on total times.
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