Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

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digits_
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by digits_ »

The "don't count them towards CPL" is kind of weird. I understand it is an FAA thing, but let's think about it for a moment.
The concern there is that there shouldn't be a reward for flying with only a PPL. Ok, makes sense. Is experience a reward? The FAA seems to think so.

However, the CPL requirements in Canada have a breakdown of certain flights a CPL student must do. It doesn't say anything that PPL hours for reward don't count. It seems to me that, worst case scenario, you'd get in trouble for accepting a reward with a PPL, but how would they refuse the hours once you have flown them?

Theoretically, you could fly with a PPL, not having any intention to ever go for a CPL. Then 2 years later, change your mind, and have those hours count for your CPL training. At that point you would be completely legal, no? Even in the US.
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ahramin
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by ahramin »

There are a lot of pretty extreme opinions here with little to no regulatory support.

As stated, whether or not the hours count as remuneration is very grey and there is no official position from Transport Canada. Quoting the FAA doesn't help, we're not in the U.S. Until something concrete comes from Transport Canada or a Tribunal decision, I don't think anyone is in a position to authoritatively state that you cannot count glider towing hours towards your CPL or ATPL. I know of at least one very recent CPL who did not pay for a single hour of their time building towards the CPL and did not have any problems. The only time he paid for was the actual CPL dual and solo requirements. The rest of his 200 hours were paid for by the Air Cadets or non-profit flying and gliding clubs.

Saying that the glider pilot paying for the tow makes the towplane for hire or reward is like saying that paying for fuel in your airplane makes it for hire or reward. The club is a non-profit society, and the towplane is owned by the club. When the members of that club pay for the use of the club assets, that doesn't magically turn a non-profit society into a commercial air service.

Having said that, most gliding clubs that I am familiar with have lots of volunteers and simply don't have the time and resources to take low time pilots and train them on tailwheel flying and glider towing.
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Chris M
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Chris M »

I'm planning to become a tow pilot at my club this summer but not for time building. I was warned that the most I could expect was 20-25 hrs/year, which isn't exactly burning through logbook pages. For me it's about learning a new type of flying and being a better pilot. And if I can get some experience I don't have to pay for, all the better.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by iflyforpie »

You can definitely tow at a club that charges for tows with a PPL. And you can definitely log those hours towards the total time and PIC requirements of a CPL.

The club just has to be registered as a non-profit.... no profit, no “reward”.. and you can’t accept pay for flying.

I’ve known lots of pilots who have done this for time building, and Transport Canada has shown zero interest in the organization that did this. They also sell rides and lessons by basically making passengers members of the club.

Transport Canada considers these types of operations “grass roots aviation activities” and won’t treat them the same way as a chisel charter.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Bede
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:38 am The minister can (and does) tacitly approve of lots of activities that appear to contradict the regulations.
Such as?
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piperdriver
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by piperdriver »

iflyforpie wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:40 pm You can definitely tow at a club that charges for tows with a PPL. And you can definitely log those hours towards the total time and PIC requirements of a CPL.

The club just has to be registered as a non-profit.... no profit, no “reward”.. and you can’t accept pay for flying.

I’ve known lots of pilots who have done this for time building, and Transport Canada has shown zero interest in the organization that did this. They also sell rides and lessons by basically making passengers members of the club.

Transport Canada considers these types of operations “grass roots aviation activities” and won’t treat them the same way as a chisel charter.
Agreed. It never ceases to amaze me why so many pilots have this unfounded fear of Transport Canada.
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ahramin
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by ahramin »

Bede wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:38 am The minister can (and does) tacitly approve of lots of activities that appear to contradict the regulations.
Such as?
Such as for profit glider operations giving rides to the paying public without an OC.
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Bede
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Bede »

ahramin wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:26 pm
Bede wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:38 am The minister can (and does) tacitly approve of lots of activities that appear to contradict the regulations.
Such as?
Such as for profit glider operations giving rides to the paying public without an OC.
There is no FTUOC available for glider operations, just like there isn't one available for ultralights. It's an intro training flight.

The wording in the CAR's consistently is "aeroplanes and helicopters" of which a glider is neither. Now, if the club took paying passengers in the tow plane, that would be a different story.
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Last edited by Bede on Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
photofly
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

piperdriver wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:49 pm
Agreed. It never ceases to amaze me why so many pilots have this unfounded fear of Transport Canada.
I know three people who have had enforcement action against them by TC officials. It can be a years long process, there's no sense of fairness, and when it happens to you it can leave you feeling victimized and bullied by the gub'mint.

Fear is exactly what TC wants you to feel.
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co-joe
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by co-joe »

I explored this option when I finished my CPL and found that most glider schools had a line up of pilots to fly the tow plane, and they were all really high timers. Most were only flying the tow plane for free tows themselves. Getting one free glide for every 3 you flew yourself was fairly common, so no money changed hands. They certainly didn't look for outsiders to fly the tow plane.

The only way in is to get your glider license, and then from the inside get checked out on the Scout, or Pawnee or whatever taildragger they're using.

That said you can log some of your PIC on gliders towards the ATPL, and it will make you a better pilot.
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Bede
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Bede »

co-joe wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:50 pm Most were only flying the tow plane for free tows themselves. Getting one free glide for every 3 you flew yourself was fairly common, so no money changed hands.
Now that could get you in trouble...
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by goingnowherefast »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:44 pm
piperdriver wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:49 pm
Agreed. It never ceases to amaze me why so many pilots have this unfounded fear of Transport Canada.
I know three people who have had enforcement action against them by TC officials. It can be a years long process, there's no sense of fairness, and when it happens to you it can leave you feeling victimized and bullied by the gub'mint.

Fear is exactly what TC wants you to feel.
My next call would be to the Transportation Appeal Tribunal, and to do it within ear shot of the TC inspector. https://www.tatc.gc.ca/en/home.html

Unless you did something blately wrong. Got caught intentionally flying overweight or some other dumb shit move.
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