Seneca grads to go direct entry Jazz & Mid East

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:40 pm

Whether or not you agree with who gets the end product, we are set up so that government pays the lion's share of education costs. Its become skewed a bit recently with grads having huge debt loads, but we, the taxpayer, pay for all the training for all the professions. If you want an MBA and a nice high salary potential at the end, it will cost you $55,000 for an executive MBA at Ottawa U. or McGill for that nice piece of parchment. You might go to a school where the building was donated by Molson or Labatts or Ho Chi Minh and you will pay a lot, but not all of what it costs.

Just because a more 'prestigious' company like Jazz(!) wants the grads makes no difference to the system. If Jazz can make money with the grads, then so can any other company.

Get over this Jazz thing - a dozen or so direct-entry pilots will not make any difference to your life, except the size of your ulcer. Go back to worrying about Al Quaida or global warming.

When times are good, as they are now (believe it or not!) why bother with Jazz? If you have enough for Jazz, go right past and go Westjet/AC, or Cathay or Singapore or....

petey · Post by **petey** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:06 pm

I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to companies like BA and Cathay. Fair enough, a 250 pilot can read checkilists for a jet aircraft; however, in these other parts of the world ie. Asia, there is much more demand for pilots, then there is supply. In Canada, with an abundance of "overqualified" pilots to fly for Jazz, what would be the reason? Ahh well. Good luck to these grads, just means I can skip working with them, I hear a bunch have attitudes.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:40 pm

Makes no difference to me...

However.. for all you folk that are worried about this and the seniority issues and job positions.. Remember this..

When the industry tanks in 2-3-4 years from now (it's GOING to happen.. it always does.. cyclical) these guys will be laid off and are pretty much useless for any of the jobs available outside of Jazz in Canuckland. What bush or SPIFR or float operator etc. is going to hire a 1500hr right seat dash 8 or RJ kid who has no PIC??

Best of luck to the folk who go that route.. I hope it works out in the best interest of the company and their careers.

Cheers,
Rowdy

jim_from_texas · Post by **jim_from_texas** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:08 pm

Well the smart ones would go overseas (Asia) and get f/o and s/o spots on widebody ac. Flying for an airline with a solid and structured training as well as flying by the book(pretty much) large turboprop or rj will give them a good head start. When the times get tough bush guy will have to stick with the bush but an airline guy who is willing to stick his nose outside of Canada will have more opportunities for career advancement.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:05 pm

I am not so sure about the Gulf Air hiring of low-time expats. Gulf Air does hire low-time locals and does run an ab-initio scheme (for nationals of Bahrain and Oman), however, the lowest I've seen for expats is around 2000 hours TT.

As for concerns about what happens theoretically when the airline industry tanks in a few years-- well, the 1500 hour CRJ FO might be in the same unemployment line with the C-185 driver, but the CRJ FO has a seniority number and will be back before any new hires. These guys are very fortunate, they are at the right place, right time, in the industry.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:50 pm

Let's face it, with what Jazz pays, this would be the only way they can guarantee their new hires won't be going to WJ or mainline within the next 2 years after date of hire.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:07 am

co-joe wrote:Let's face it, with what Jazz pays, this would be the only way they can guarantee their new hires won't be going to WJ or mainline within the next 2 years after date of hire.

I don't think this guarantees anything for Jazz...

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:36 am

I think the main difference in the Middle East and Asia is the fact that they want more local talent in the pointy end of the aircraft. Most expat Captains will agree that as long as things go textbook, there is no problem. The inexperience shows when the cadets are forced outside the comfort zone resulting in helmet fire and the Captain is forced to take control.

I do agree that such programs should be self funded. Any pilot that has lived in Ontario should not have to fund their competition.

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:33 pm

What I just don't understand about all of this is why higher time pilots care about this topic at all. Why would an experienced pilot even consider quitting a turbine job to move to Toronto for $35K when they can make $50 - $60k flying a King Air around. Also, you really screw yourself for going onwards to AC by going to Jazz first as you likely won't "pass" your interview to AC. I think living in the north where you can buy a house for less than $500k and not sit in traffic for an hour beats sitting at Jazz. Some of you guys are pretty screwed up in your thinking.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:25 pm

Anonymous1 wrote:What I just don't understand about all of this is why higher time pilots care about this topic at all. Why would an experienced pilot even consider quitting a turbine job to move to Toronto for $35K when they can make $50 - $60k flying a King Air around. Also, you really screw yourself for going onwards to AC by going to Jazz first as you likely won't "pass" your interview to AC. I think living in the north where you can buy a house for less than $500k and not sit in traffic for an hour beats sitting at Jazz. Some of you guys are pretty screwed up in your thinking.

This is getting off topic, but seeing as I started this one I'd like to take the liberty of offering a different perspective. Well you see Anonymous, it's about different strokes for different folks. Some of us actually like the big cities and the lifestyle that goes with it. I have lived up in the North and flown all over it and couldn't wait to get back to Toronto. Also there is the family part of the equation. Most of mine and my close friends are here. To put it simply, I just plain love it here and gladly accept things like traffic and the higher cost of living as the trade off. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the weekend getaway up North to cottage country, but wouldnt want to live there 24-7.
Cheers!!!

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:38 pm

You guys are all full of shit:

http://jobs.workopolis.com/jobshome/db/ ... _maxjob=21

Take note of this part:

In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:

* possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
* have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience *;
* 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience is preferred*;
* have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time*;

* Please provide a detailed breakdown of your flying experience (by equipment and type including PIC time) in a cover letter (in case you thought the asterisk stood for "unless you are a College Avaition Grad)

@#$! you guys are gullible...

Like shooting fish in a barrel this place is!

Tui · Post by **Tui** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:58 am

Either way, everyone is looking at taking lower time pilots. NAC and Wasaya have done it, why not Jazz? Everyone is re-evaluating their mins with the lack of pilots.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:17 pm

I heard today from a reliable source this is all rumour.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:06 pm

altiplano wrote:I heard today from a reliable source this is all rumour.

Wonder why the Dircector of Flight Ops at Jazz would confirm it then?

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:55 am

grammar boy wrote:You guys are all full of shit:

http://jobs.workopolis.com/jobshome/db/ ... _maxjob=21

Take note of this part:

In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:

* possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
* have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience *;
* 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience is preferred*;
* have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time*;

* Please provide a detailed breakdown of your flying experience (by equipment and type including PIC time) in a cover letter (in case you thought the asterisk stood for "unless you are a College Avaition Grad)

@#$! you guys are gullible...

Like shooting fish in a barrel this place is!

You won't find it on the Jazz website. The news is posted on the Jazz Ops. website. It is a password protected website that only Jazz pilots have access to.

Bottom line, It is not 100% official, but they are seriously looking at it. And most likely it will happen based on what was posted on the flt ops site.

Now as far as who is funding this........who knows. IMO I can imagine there will some taxpayers money involved. Think, if Jazz can afford to fund this, they can afford to pay their pilot better. If they can afford to pay their pilots better, many would stay. If their pilots stay, there would not be a need to bring 200 hours pilots who won't be able to jump ship in the first place.

canpropjock · Post by **canpropjock** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:29 pm

Everybody,

It is a hot issue and yes it's true, I was in CYKZ not too long ago and that's all I heard. Now it's true, automation, does make the CRJ Safer, and yes a 200 hour guy can probably handle the normal day to day operation. However I have worked on CRJ's A320's A340's B767's for AC and when something goes wrong in those cockpits they really go wrong, the experience and good decision making that comes from years of flying crap has no substitute. We only need look to some of our asian operators, where in a lot of cases they fly highly automated aircraft into the ground. It is more common than we hear about ... do the research. Ofcourse this won't change Jazz's corporate hiring practices, for a lot of reasons mentioned on this thread alone (some very good points I might add) but it can change the way we think as hard working pilots. Do we, after years of sacrifice, flying crap, flying into gravel 2500 ft strips, at night! want to take a pay cut from a Turbine Command Job to eat KD with Ketchup in CYYZ to work for a flag carrier that doesn't respect the journey you've taken to get where you are? Maybe Yes Maybe No, I'm just saying think about it, there are other avenues, and sometimes way better avenues than Jazz or AC.

Cheers

kurtis1981 · Post by **kurtis1981** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:19 am

Why doesn't someone go public with this shit. Let the whole population know what Jazz is doing, hiring fresh commercial pilots to fly RJ's. Everyone would freak out, not fly Jazz anymore with these low timers. Maybe it would turn things around?? what do you think?

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:32 am

What is the big deal? With proper training, a 200hr pilot will do just fine as an FO...as long as he is with an experienced captain...
Stop making such a fuss...as the pilot shortage worsens, this kind of thing will be standard, and maybe it will raise the quality of life and the salary of the experienced guys.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:02 am

spartacus wrote:Unfortuantely that is not my problem, KWIM?
A for profit company should not have it's training subsidised by the gov. Either Jazz can fund them, or the students end up paying for it all, much like in the US.

Why not? All companies who require a university degree have training subsidized by the government. You want to be a Lawyer? Guess what? It's subsidized. Financial type? Subsidized. IT technical or management? yep, you guessed it...subsidized. Carpenter? yep. Plumber? yep. Artist? yep. Accountant? Pharmacist? Chemist? Engineer? The list goes on. And they are funded to the tune of 10's of thousands of $$ per year. And it doesn't matter whether the trade or skill is in demand or not. It is subsidized.

ps...i am in no way saying i support the government subsidies over there, ....just making a point.

saucer_driver · Post by **saucer_driver** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:06 am

[quote]Why doesn't someone go public with this shit. Let the whole population know what Jazz is doing, hiring fresh commercial pilots to fly RJ's. Everyone would freak out, not fly Jazz anymore with these low timers. Maybe it would turn things around?? what do you think?[/quote]

Lots of other countries do this, its not new. I feel better on Jazz with seneca guy then i do on some asian ariline where all the pilots were trained this way...

Seneca grads to go direct entry Jazz & Mid East

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