Being Blacklisted

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CAVESPRING
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Being Blacklisted

#1 Post by CAVESPRING » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:04 am

Is there an unofficial "blacklist" out there where aviation employers put in your name or potential employers can search?

Is being blacklisted a common thing in aviation in Canada?
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#2 Post by Krimson » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:15 am

Uh oh...what did you do?


I don't know about a blacklist, but aviation is a small community, word gets out pretty quick.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#3 Post by iflyforpie » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:43 am

There is no 'official' blacklist.

However, there are a few companies that if you have the lack of self-worth to work for..... you might find your career stalled. Skydive Toronto and Keystone Air Services are a couple.

If you advertise yourself on Kijiji running a chisel charter.... you will likely find yourself blacklisted as well... but not everyone reads Kijiji or the flame filled threads about those, and those that know probably won't remember unless your logbook reflects that type of flying or they write down your name.

Finally--and the most deadly--is word of mouth. Aviation in Canada is a very small community..... the Six Degrees of Separation are more like Two Degrees...... I'm pretty sure all of the people I know in aviation know just about everyone... and just about every new person I meet knows someone that I know ... and I am in a pretty quiet corner of aviation.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#4 Post by Shiny Side Up » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:42 am

Everything bad you do goes on your permanent record you know. :wink:
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#5 Post by CAVESPRING » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:48 am

Krimson wrote:Uh oh...what did you do?


I don't know about a blacklist, but aviation is a small community, word gets out pretty quick.
Nothing really. I left a job a few years ago due to safety concerns. After that, I have been turned down from many jobs that I was clearly suitable and qualified for. I'm wondering if these companies where contacting the company I left...
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#6 Post by timel » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:10 pm

A company can only refuse to provide a lettre of recommandation, but not talk negative about an employee.

Never heard anyone not getting an interview because they refused to work due to safety reasons.

Like iflyforpie said, ex-bosses don't put pilots on a black list, but pilots working at one place who know other pilots working at the other, might have done a little chat about that folk who wants the job...
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#7 Post by Shiny Side Up » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:20 pm

A company can only refuse to provide a lettre of recommandation, but not talk negative about an employee.
True, but one of the bizarre things I keep running into these days are guys who don't seem to think anyone is going to check on their references. Of a dozen or so reference checks I've made this year, almost none of the people I called had given permission to be used as a reference. If that wasn't damning enough. I've also been on the flip side of that where someone has called, and I hadn't given permission to be used as a reference. In those cases, like Thumper says, If you can't say nothing nice....

Again, not saying anything is, or at least you'd think it would be damning as well. But such is not the case. Neither is smashing up airplanes or anything else it seems, so I wouldn't worry that you think someone may be slagging you behind your back, or at least that the slagging is the cause of you not being hired.

The hiring process in many cases has nothing to do with who's most qualified. Its not just how you look on paper that gets you hired. After all, what appears on a resume, isn't what you get in person.

Funny story: Had someone apply here once who seemed nice, was qualified, but had the poor judgement to put off most of the customers. Needless to say, he didn't get hired.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#8 Post by aerie » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:37 pm

timel wrote:A company can only refuse to provide a lettre of recommandation, but not talk negative about an employee.
Unfortunately, this isn't so. :(

As long as whatever you're saying is true, "bad" references are completely legal. While most companies do have corporate policies in place where they'll only confirm dates of employment and titles, this is purely to avoid nuisance lawsuits. Because this policy is so common many people have come to believe that it’s actually illegal to give a bad reference. Not the case!
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#9 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:53 pm

There is a blacklist; however for the right fee I can remove you from it.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#10 Post by helicopterray » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:41 pm

Most people may have friends at places where an applicant may have worked in the past. Casual conversations, off the record, may reveal more than an official reference.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#11 Post by AWOS » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:01 pm

iflyforpie wrote:There is no 'official' blacklist.

However, there are a few companies that if you have the lack of self-worth to work for..... you might find your career stalled. Skydive Toronto and Keystone Air Services are a couple.

The guys who make it out of Keystone in one piece all seem to have no problem moving on with their careers.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#12 Post by checkremarks » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:12 pm

photofly wrote:There is a blacklist; however for the right fee I can remove you from it.
I'll give you $500.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#13 Post by leftoftrack » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:22 pm

checkremarks wrote:
photofly wrote:There is a blacklist; however for the right fee I can remove you from it.
I'll give you $500.
I'll give you $1000 and I'll pay for my type check................wait what are we talking about?
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#14 Post by Lost Lake » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:11 am

Please email me your requirements for type rating. I am only qualified to give ratings up to dream liner, space shuttle is pending. Depending on hours required on type. ratings are $100 per 10 hr on type, plus 1 case of beer (Canadian or Heineken) per 50 hrs.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#15 Post by Jack Klumpus » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:30 am

AWOS wrote:
iflyforpie wrote:There is no 'official' blacklist.

However, there are a few companies that if you have the lack of self-worth to work for..... you might find your career stalled. Skydive Toronto and Keystone Air Services are a couple.

The guys who make it out of Keystone in one piece all seem to have no problem moving on with their careers.
The chief pilot who interviewed me after keystone, went as far as telling me that he never calls them for a reference. He knows.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#16 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:05 pm

The opposite of a so called "black list" also exists. The last guy we hired hadn't even applied to us. I just cold called his after talking to his boss.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#17 Post by billgeno » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:27 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:The opposite of a so called "black list" also exists. The last guy we hired hadn't even applied to us. I just cold called his after talking to his boss.
Illya
I know the topic regarding first jobs post flight school has been covered ad-nauseam, however I have an honest question for you.

Would you personally consider hiring a newly minted CPL if they had a wealth of life experience and a bit more than jell-o between the ears?

Thanks!

Bill
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#18 Post by jpilot77 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:44 pm

I'd say there's a big difference between a very young CPL who's never had a real job before and a slightly older CPL (mid twenties) who has had a few real jobs.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#19 Post by trey kule » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:29 pm


Would you personally consider hiring a newly minted CPL if they had a wealth of life experience and a bit more than jell-o between the ears?
Bill. I think it is one or the other. You cant be both :smt040

It very much depends on the company. Older, world experienced pilots tend to balk at flying overweight, underfueled, and in icing conditions. Young ones will not only embrace the learning opportunity, but seek it out in many cases. They believe they are much less prone to decision errors. So it depends on what a company is looking for.

I am very familiar with one company. Used to be no hires under 25 or who had never had a job outside aviation. In these times, that has changed, but in the not socialist world, there is a minimum age limit for Captain upgrade,( though that might be for pax optics.)

There are three primary personality tributes looked for in hiring. One is maturity. That is not strictly age related, Some thirty year olds now cant seem to go 5 mins without checking their cell phones.....during meeting with a potential boss! But in general, it is .The signs of maturity looked for in interviews and assessments are quite subtle, and from what I have seen, quite accurate. People simply cannot do a self evaluation well. Keep in mind that the military, the airlines and some speciality operators look for different things, so older pilots might fit well in one type of operation, and not in another.

So, to answer your question...like so much in aviation...it depends.

As to the OP. If you are not getting hired maybe look into the mirror for a hint at the reason rather than seek out blaclklists.
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#20 Post by billgeno » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:18 am

trey kule wrote:

Would you personally consider hiring a newly minted CPL if they had a wealth of life experience and a bit more than jell-o between the ears?
Bill. I think it is one or the other. You cant be both :smt040

It very much depends on the company. Older, world experienced pilots tend to balk at flying overweight, underfueled, and in icing conditions. Young ones will not only embrace the learning opportunity, but seek it out in many cases. They believe they are much less prone to decision errors. So it depends on what a company is looking for.

I am very familiar with one company. Used to be no hires under 25 or who had never had a job outside aviation. In these times, that has changed, but in the not socialist world, there is a minimum age limit for Captain upgrade,( though that might be for pax optics.)

There are three primary personality tributes looked for in hiring. One is maturity. That is not strictly age related, Some thirty year olds now cant seem to go 5 mins without checking their cell phones.....during meeting with a potential boss! But in general, it is .The signs of maturity looked for in interviews and assessments are quite subtle, and from what I have seen, quite accurate. People simply cannot do a self evaluation well. Keep in mind that the military, the airlines and some speciality operators look for different things, so older pilots might fit well in one type of operation, and not in another.

So, to answer your question...like so much in aviation...it depends.

As to the OP. If you are not getting hired maybe look into the mirror for a hint at the reason rather than seek out blaclklists.
Thank you so much for this insightful post. If I had the opportunity to speak with some of the CPs or OPS Mgrs who make the decisions and would consider someone with the new sticker, I am sure that they would be able to ascertain that I have a lot to offer beyond some numbers in a logbook. I am the person who wants to go home to his family and will assess the risks that might prevent me from doing so.

It has certainly become quite the eye opener since completing my training. I would have loved to follow the instructor route because I am sure that I would find it quite rewarding, however ran WAYY over my war chest on my flight training and therefore had nothing left - and I am not willing to take on the $12K debt for the training. So the market has been littered with my CVs - I am sure to the point of annoying some - and I have received two calls. One for an invitation to an overseas interview and the other for a ramp job (I am not going to get into the Ground to Fly debate). I had to turn them both down because of my situation at the time.

I would love to find a smaller operator who values their employees who does bag runs or something like it. Work my way up and spend my time with them, after all I spent 10 years at my last company so I am rather loyal. Any suggestions?

Thanks and sorry for being a little off topic :)

BG
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Re: Being Blacklisted

#21 Post by trey kule » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:20 pm

Pm sent
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