Jazz or Porter?

[Stinky]

The pay is pretty close to Jazz but you will take home alot more from your basic pay (due to no Pension, Union dues, etc)

The take home might end up as more but I think there's a lot of value in what we have deducted from our pay. Having a pension is nice, health benefits are good if you have a family, union dues I don't mind paying.

I think either company is good and about equal when it comes to pros and cons, it really just comes down to a personal choice.
One thing I like at Jazz is the opportunity to fly different aircraft types and transfer to different bases if I choose. Career progression might not be as fast but there can be a lot of variety if you opt for it.

[. .]

The pay is pretty close to Jazz but you will take home alot more from your basic pay (due to no Pension, Union dues, etc)

The take home might end up as more but I think there's a lot of value in what we have deducted from our pay. Having a pension is nice, health benefits are good if you have a family, union dues I don't mind paying.

I think either company is good and about equal when it comes to pros and cons, it really just comes down to a personal choice.
One thing I like at Jazz is the opportunity to fly different aircraft types and transfer to different bases if I choose. Career progression might not be as fast but there can be a lot of variety if you opt for it.

Pension, union dues, etc are tax deductible. While your monthly pay check may be smaller, your tax return should be larger.

Looking at a lifetime career job, Porter would need a few things for it to qualify with me. Jazz has a pension, pay progression, different fleet options etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Porter just have one Captain's pay level? I couldn't imagine a 20-30 year career there with a lifetime of no raises. Yes on the good years you'd get a profit share, but in the bad ones you would get nothing.

Pension is a HUGE issue. I'm not sure what the contributions that Jazz puts into the DC plan they have. That HAS to be taken into account. Quite simply, that's money that you're not having to invest in your future. If you were at porter you'd have to invest twice as much, from a smaller captains wage to have the same savings.

Porter may of had 1 year upgrades in the past. The current round of hires may also upgrade in a year. At some point, they've gotten all their planes, and you're the last FO they hire. I wouldn't want to be that guy, looking over at the meteoric rise to the left seat at Jazz, while you're left rotting in the right seat. A mixed fleet can make for some excitement in your career too. The longest I've flown one type for was just under 3 years. By the end of the three years, I was teaching in the sim, checking, line indocing and I was starting to feel like I wanted more. Certainly I could have done the ACP course, but that's all that would have remained. Perhaps others have a longer attention span than I do, but 20-30 years on a single type could prove monotonous.

Jazz also has some of the best benefits in the business. I realize that many on this forum won't understand the true value of something like this yet. Braces for 3 kids are expensive, god forbid your child is truly sick and needs a lifetime of medicine. If that happens you'll appreciate top end benefits. Maybe you'll be a single, healthy guy up until the day you die in your sleep at 98, but most at some point are very glad they have them. The flight benefits can't be compared either. I do realize that porter has some, but they can't be compared with what Jazz has. You can get anywhere in the world, about 6 different ways with Jazz. There are some benefits to being attached to a 75yr old legacy carrier.

Lastly, for those that question the stability of a career at Jazz. Give your heads a shake. Jazz is one of the very few solid gigs in Canada. Have they laid off in the past? Yep. Will they lay off again, that's possible. I'd certainly rather be laid off and hold my seniority number, and my seat, than have my company fold. When your company folds you're starting from scratch again. I'm not saying Porter is going to fold, but there's certainly a much higher risk of them folding than Jazz shutting their doors. Jazz has no equals in Canada, they'd never be allowed to fold. There's so many tier 2 cities that would become totally isolated if that were to happen. It would be political suicide to let that happen.

Anyway, I realize this has been more than a bit long winded. There's so many people that love to bash Jazz on absolutely no solid grounds at all. I have dozens of friends who work there, and each and every one of them love it. I'm not saying porter sucks, but don't take some of the posters here to paint the picture of Jazz for you.

[Flightlevels]

I think porter would get you to AC or WJ faster. Wj loves that experience and Jazz is on equal footing there. When AC begins hiring you don't have to worry about a flow through etc. and they like that experience too, when and if the hiring ever reaches you (there will be many ahead of you at jazz). From what I see, porter has better culture and significant growth. Nice a/c etc. If I were looking long term then I would go Jazz for benefits and passes only. This isn't the case. Bonds are a small price to pay for 2 years if it gets you into the job you really want faster leaving all the guys that want to progress faster at Jazz in the dust.. Porter will do this.

[C-GGGQ]

Now I know that the $3000 uniform bond is real at porter (for the FA's at least) However i was under the impression that the "bond" you guys refer to is a no money up front promisary. At this point in my life (single already in Toronto etc.) and seeing how the original poster said that this was not the end game and that you would move on to WJ or AC. I would choose porter over jazz. I know plenty of people at porter, and have also worked for jazz. Never heard a complaint about porter. That said neither one will even glance at my resume at this point so whoever would give me a job is who i choose

[Stinky]

Bonds are a small price to pay for 2 years if it gets you into the job you really want faster leaving all the guys that want to progress faster at Jazz in the dust.. Porter will do this.

You only need about 3 days on average to progress from Jazz to Westjet.

[DaveP]

[Valhalla]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Porter just have one Captain's pay level? I couldn't imagine a 20-30 year career there with a lifetime of no raises. Yes on the good years you'd get a profit share, but in the bad ones you would get nothing.

There are yearly pay raises at Porter. Consider yourself corrected!

Pension is a HUGE issue. I'm not sure what the contributions that Jazz puts into the DC plan they have. That HAS to be taken into account. Quite simply, that's money that you're not having to invest in your future. If you were at porter you'd have to invest twice as much, from a smaller captains wage to have the same savings.

Porter has a retirement program where the company deposits $$'s into your personal RRSP instead of a pension plan.

[mattedfred]

endless,

jazz has a DB plan and the contribution rate is employer matched at 5%

[. .]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Porter just have one Captain's pay level? I couldn't imagine a 20-30 year career there with a lifetime of no raises. Yes on the good years you'd get a profit share, but in the bad ones you would get nothing.

There are yearly pay raises at Porter. Consider yourself corrected!

Let's not get too high and mighty there. This is a fairly recent addition at porter then, because it certainly wasn't that way not too long ago. How many years does the scale go out to now? What is the top rate on the scale now?

How much will porter put into rrsps? Is it a matching deal where they'll equal what you put in, to a certain amount? Is it based off of % of salary? I'm interested, I haven't heard of any details about this yet.

[. .]

endless,

jazz has a DB plan and the contribution rate is employer matched at 5%

Wouldn't that be a DC plan if they're matching your cash going in?

[mattedfred]

nope

[Metro-Sexual]

Hey folks lets not get too nasty.

Both companies are good places to work. Both have pros and cons that's for sure. Pay for now is pretty equal. Scale stops at 5 yrs and is amended annually matches Jazz's pretty much dollar for dollar. Of course a bit of profit sharing brings up. (no not a dig just a fact) The scale will undoubtedly continue to match Jazz all the way up to the 13yr mark which I believe Jazz tops out at. As far as benefits go as Valhala said Pension - yes probably less than Jazz's for now but at start. Medical and dental benefits - yes, all paid by the company with no employee contributions (so no need to worry about kids teeth etc. Not sure how it measures up to Jazz's but hey its there. As far a travel you can yes you can go anywhere in the world with Porter as well. You may not be able to do it six was but you can.

Yea there is a bond. As everyone is aware by now there is no money up front just is yo leave before two years and it is pro-rated. Yes so far only one aircraft type but its a pretty nice one. But the 705 is pretty nice too. And who knows what the future holds for different types? Yes I know about the limitations of the island so no need to go there. Just making a point. Only base so far is Toronto but some guys are commuting from YOW.

As far as upgrades yeah they are quick now and will slow that is a fact. Can't argue there. (Glad I got mine when I did) As far as coworkers sure everyone is pretty good at Porter everyone gets along really well and sure if we go through a couple of mergers and such people will not be a happy at work but lets hope it never happens. I'm sure most of the people at Jazz are pretty good to work with too. Most people I know there are great and I would love to fly with them.

As I said both have pros and cons. When applying don't rule either out. If you get an offer from either company seriously consider it. They pay us to fly airplanes, that's a good start. Is there things to bitch about at both places. FOR SURE! But find a flight deck at any company where pilots can find something to bitch about.

If you enjoy where you are stay, if you don't move on. Lets not bash a place based on "well my buddy told me". Obviously both places can't be that bad seems to be lots of people working and looking to work at both.

Just my 2 cents. But what do I know right!

Cheers
MS

[. .]

Metro: Good post!

[Valhalla]

Thanks Metro! Well said.

[bob sacamano]

With this economy? I say take the first one that hires you.

You can have fun at both places.

Work to live, don't live to work.

[Cam]

I left the mortgage business and now I work on the ramp...having the time of my life...weird how things work out...

[Dark Helmet]

Here are the real facts on Jazz

I have been with the company for nearly 3 years now. I love it, mind you I am easy to please.

Work Rules:

12 Guarantee days off a month. Usually, unless you are on reserve, or bid inefficient flying, you will get about 15-16 day off a month.

We have a preferential bid system at Jazz where you can bid pairings, days off, etc. You can bid for 1-4 day pairings

Typical month. RJ with a block:
-15 days on.
-10 nights away from home
-9 hours days (can range from 3 hrs to 13hrs)
-3-4 legs (I have seen 6)

On the dash 8 you will work about the same no. of day but you may fly more legs (4-7) and work slightly longer days.

Turnaround times between flight, 25 minutes to 4.5 hours.

Pay:

Status pay (pay is the same on all a/c types)

This is from the Airline pilot Central, not 100% accurate but close. (actual pay is a bit more)
FO

Yr 1 35.8K/yr
Yr 2 41.8K/yr
Yr 3 $50/hr
-
-
Yr 13 $65/hr

CAPT

Yr 1 $72/hr
Yr 2 $74/hr
Yr 7 $84/hr *most likely what you will make when you upgrade give upgrade times.
Yr 16 $105/hr

Flat pay for 1st two years, then on hourly pay on year 3.

There is profit sharing, ensemble, etc.......not a lot I'd say about 1200 take home in a year total.

Perdiems, about 500-800 and month depending on what type of flying you do.

Bond

No bond for training. Like mentioned before, you do pay for half of your uniforn, I think the total came out to 400 bucks (I think, it has been a while) it is payroll deducted. If you leave inside of 2 years, you pay for your uniform.

Benefits:

Full AC flight beneifts for day one, + jumpseat agreements with 60+ airlines including some of the largest in North America . Pension, STD, LTD, Excellent medical, dental benefits, though they are pricey. Company pays for 50%. Lots fo good discounts with various retailers.

Morale:

Depends, most guys and gals are really good to work with and are generally happy. but there are the exceptions. Keep in mind this airline has been through a merger, CCAA, restructuring in the past 10 years. Despite all this there are still a lot of good top notch people here. The grumpy ones are the minority.

Dealing with ACGHS and agents can be frustrating.

Equipment


The airline is good, Overall very safe operation,

Our planes, some are old, some are new. For the most part they are well maintained. They are also well equiped. EFIS, FMS, SCDA Appr., ACARS, (for those who don't know, you can print out wx, ATIS send messages to maint. CP. etc.) , Huds on the RJ.

The flying is great, lots of variety. On the Dash, you will be doing NDB (GPS) in to a 3500 foot strip in YGP or YGR one, day. Then shooting an ILS into YUL, YOW, the next. Or flying in the mountains out west if you are lucky. the RJ you will fly all over North America. You will be in YZF, YYC, YVR, LAX, IAH one week, then BOS, LGA, ORD, ATL, YHZ, YQM, YQB the next

Training is excellent

Stability, Career progression, etc

You know what, just like any other airline.

Food for thought, we have not laid off a soul since CCAA and we are hiring 60 pilots this year. Mind this is aviation and that can all change.

Upgrades, 7 in YYZ, 12 to 16 out west. Some people commute for an upgrade.

Also, Cathay, Emirates, Westjet, Air Transat ,Sunwing, all like to and have hired Jazz pilots in the past.

Now those are the facts. I am not sugar coating any of this. Anyone that works at Jazz and cares to correct me, go ahead.

Now on to the bashers

Like I said on another post, most of these people don't work or have never worked at Jazz and thus don't have a F#$% clue what they are talking about. Not sure what their motivation is. Maybe they got turned down or never got called, maybe they are trolling, I don' know. If those are the reasons than maybe they should grow up and get over it.

BTW good post Metro, glad to hear you guys are doing well!!!

I think both companies are good, I have heard nothing but good things about Porter.

Apply to both and go to whoever calls you first.

Good luck

[Red Line]

I think Metro and Dark Helmet share the golden post award for this thread! Well written and full of useful info. Thank you!

[Jim la Jungle]

Those were really good posts! Now, with that info, my question is: Would you leave your present company where you have a better wage (than the entry at those 2 companies) , good seniority, and I guess, a better job security (whatever this means in aviation) to go at Jazz or Porter and be at the bottom of the list under these uncertain times.

I'm in that dilemma and don't have any nails left to chew on.

[mattedfred]

only you can answer that question

you have to figure out where you want to be for the majority of your flying career and when you retire

if you want to be at porter or jazz then try and get on with either as soon as you can regardless of any uncertainty

your DOJ will never change even you get furloughed from jazz and that is all that counts when it's time to upgrade

timing this industry is as easy as timing the market

best of luck