That Elusive First job

[Randleman]

Hey everyone,

I am 18 and just graduated high school with my CPL and Multi/IFR. I have about 300 hours and I am trying to get my foot in the door. I am doing everything I can, applying for every position at every place I possibly can-in person whenever I can. I live in Winnipeg, MB, and it's approaching fall so I cannot apply for parachute jumping/floats to build some time until next summer. I am willing to do anything-even wash planes for a year if it meant flying in the future. I was considering going up North perhaps to search for work there?

Does anyone have any suggestions? Any comments/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
-J

['effin hippie]

Well, you could go back through this forum in particular, as well as the bush forum, and find out how others have had this same question answered.

Although if I were you I would take the next year or so and be a goof-off. Go to Oz or Europe or something. Skateboard a bit. Live in a van in Whistler. Seriously, you'll never be 18 again. F***, you could do nothing but party and screw for the next eight years and you'd still be ahead of me!

But whatever floats the ole' boat. Check out the list of no-bond operators at the top of this section for a decent list of decent companies across the land. Get some broken in work gloves. Install a block heater in the car. Start looking and don't stop until you are employed as a pilot.

Don't be discouraged by all the whiners and fault-finders on this site. It's an excellent resource, and aviation is still better than working for a living if you don't mind the commitment.

No cash for training! Good luck.

ef

[sky's the limit]

Well, you could go back through this forum in particular, as well as the bush forum, and find out how others have had this same question answered.

Although if I were you I would take the next year or so and be a goof-off. Go to Oz or Europe or something. Skateboard a bit. Live in a van in Whistler. Seriously, you'll never be 18 again. F***, you could do nothing but party and screw for the next eight years and you'd still be ahead of me!

ef

Absolutely the best advice Hippy.

You are only young once, and as bad as you probably want to get going, you're 18 - go enjoy life, see what's out there, learn a bit before committing to work for the rest of your life. I know it will never happen to you - it certainly wasn't going to happen to me - but you will wake up in your mid-thirties or mid-forties.... whether you start at 18 or 20, it will make no real difference in the long run.

Aviation eats it's young, and you should go have a blast while you can, go see what happens in other countries for a while.

stl

PS There are some VERY cute girls in almost every corner of the planet....

[North Shore]

I'll add a big +1 to what ef and STL said. Move to Whistler, and go and see Rudy at Pemberton Gliding about working there next summer.

[iflyforpie]

I'll add a big +1 to what ef and STL said. Move to Whistler, and go and see Rudy at Pemberton Gliding about working there next summer.

+ ....uhm ....what number are we on now?

Maturity is an advantage in this industry. So look for a job, but don't take the first thing that comes along and don't burn yourself out. Make sure you have fun.

I never tried hard at finding a flying job in this industry. With 300 and change, I was offered this job from a resume I threw in two years before and I love it. I turned down plenty of jobs before this one because of the low pay and working conditions.

[North Shore]

ok, I had to take remedial maths in Grade 1..that'd be..carry the one, add the denominator...+3

[iflyforpie]

Since I became a pilot the brain cells don't work so good...

[Invertago]

Go get your instructor rating, then you can walk across the ramp in your white shirt and tie to tell some 70 year old pilot what he is doing wrong and watch the shit fly!

PS. Being right or wrong isn't the issue, it is all about their reaction hearing it from someone who could be their grankid lol.

[Randleman]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

[NWONT]

Man, sometimes I just can't believe the bullshit I read on Avcanada. By all means, spend a year and bop the pooch. Bank account must be full of cash so who needs an income. Always remember the old man looks forward to a collect call every week looking for another donation or you can just stand on a street corner beside your van and repeat " spare change ". Here's some real advice. Go to Red Lake and tell every operator what you said in your post. " I'm willing to work ". They are going to lose much of their help as students return to class. Moose hunting season will soon start so there is much work to do til the snow flies. When spring rolls around you won't be just another resume, your face and your attitude toward work will be known. Do not listen to these wimps about how you are now a professional pilot and as such are above doing a days work. Be on that dock to catch every plane, do everything that you can do to help the pilots and engineers.This will all be noticed and there will be empty legs in the 180 or a Cub that a appreciating pilot will let you fly. You could possibly have a free float endorsement by the end of the season. This sort of thing has happened to me and I've passed it on to others. Remember the most contagious disease in the world is bitching and whining, avoid those who are afflicted.

[iflyforpie]

Here's some real advice. Go to Red Lake and tell every operator what you said in your post. " I'm willing to work ".

A friend of mine spent two years on a dock in RL with 50 hours of float time and gave up on floats altogether. I dare say you will be better off if you work a job that pays better and lets you have some fun before becoming a highly qualified ground pounder.

Always remember the old man looks forward to a collect call every week looking for another donation or you can just stand on a street corner beside your van and repeat " spare change ".

Oh, you've worked the dock before...

[NWONT]

You bet I've worked the dock. When the flying was slow I have also built a few docks. I have also dug a few holes at outposts and moved a few shithouses. I've repaired outboards, Servel refridgeraters, cleaned fish and skinned and gutted moose and maintained my aircraft including inspections as I was also a licenced engineer. I have never considered any form of work that needed to be done beneath me. I've never been out of work for more than a few days and never left a job I couldn't go back to. I have never been to a college but have four ATR's from different countries plus a couple of licence validations from other countries. I have an Engineers licence with a few heavy endorsements. My father has been dead since I was thirteen years old so no financial help there. I started out working the docks and ramps of Red Lake, Pickle Lake and Gimli doing just what I am suggesting to Randleman. I worked day and night twisting wrenches and loading frieght to pay for each flying lesson, then studying in spare moments to write my engineers exams. At the same time I raised two sons and helped them through University. When I read a post from a 200 hr wimp that Daddy has paid for everything and now crows about how he is now a " Professional pilot" and wouldn't think of soiling his hands chucking a bag or box of frieght, hell I just about fall off my chair. Yessir, won't work the ramp, won't answer the phone, you wouldn't work for me for two seconds. Read the posts by 50'min and Young grasshopper, they seem to have it together.

[iflyforpie]

I don't think we are all that different.

My dad passed away when I was 17. I payed for my AME training and then worked my way through exams and two licenses. I paid for my PPL cash, and made a deal with a flight school I was working with to get a CPL. I also got married and raised two kids in the mean time. No money from mommy or daddy.

Where I am now, I am the only AME and one of three charter pilots flying three aircraft. I work my ass off! I sweep hangars, fuel planes, do books, answer phones, clean toilets, scrub bellies (you can eat off our planes), fly up to six hours a day in the summer, and do maintenance checks with the remainder of my 14 hour duty day.

Why I say I am not willing to work dock or ramp (and why I preach this) is not to get out of hard work--which I am a firm believer in.

What pisses me off (and I say this so many times) is the carrot dangling in front of wet-behind-the-ear commercial pilots which will make them go places and do things for wages that would get a '@#$! you' from anybody else. You learn some things by working on a dock, things I am sure you would learn behind the wheel of a 180 as well. But you sure don't learn to fly...

I got a CPL to fly commercially, and that is what I do! I have never worked a job in aviation that has paid minimum wage and I have never accepted a job where I did not exercise the rights of my license at least some of the time. From 200TT, I have never worked dock or ramp and I never will...

Dock would be great if you could get dead legs as you say and work into a full-time flying position for next year. But I know tons of people where this hasn't worked out and tons of operators who take ruthless advantage of this arrangement...


So back to my original post. At 18, nobody is going to be serious about putting you straight on the line before a good few years of dock service (unless you are Pete Macleod, speaking of daddy's boys), so why not take a year off and experience the world?

Flame away!

[NWONT]

Well, Ifly, the first thing I would get rid of is the lines at the bottom of your posts. It clearly says " I've got nothing and I'm willing to do nothing". You mentioned a friend who worked the dock for two years in Red Lake. Did he work it or did he stand on it? It would take me a very long time to list the pilots that are now flying wide-bodied jets that started on the docks of Red Lake. There are many terrific operators on Howie Bay that would bend over backwards to help a young aviator who showed with the attitude that I'm going to give my all to earn some respect instead of someone who says " I've been standing here for weeks, when am I going to start flying". Check out Viking Airs website. You would have a hard time finding a better family business than that and they treat all employees like family. Hell they even treat customers like family and its not a show, its just the way they are. There are others also. If you show up with the attitude that when I have enough time to leave I'm gone, everybody can smell it on you.

[Randleman]

Man, sometimes I just can't believe the bullshit I read on Avcanada. By all means, spend a year and bop the pooch. Bank account must be full of cash so who needs an income. Always remember the old man looks forward to a collect call every week looking for another donation or you can just stand on a street corner beside your van and repeat " spare change ". Here's some real advice. Go to Red Lake and tell every operator what you said in your post. " I'm willing to work ". They are going to lose much of their help as students return to class. Moose hunting season will soon start so there is much work to do til the snow flies. When spring rolls around you won't be just another resume, your face and your attitude toward work will be known. Do not listen to these wimps about how you are now a professional pilot and as such are above doing a days work. Be on that dock to catch every plane, do everything that you can do to help the pilots and engineers.This will all be noticed and there will be empty legs in the 180 or a Cub that a appreciating pilot will let you fly. You could possibly have a free float endorsement by the end of the season. This sort of thing has happened to me and I've passed it on to others. Remember the most contagious disease in the world is bitching and whining, avoid those who are afflicted.

No worries man! That's my attitude anyway! I'm well short of cash, so theres no chance for me to travel anyway, i owe a substantial sum of money, and I did it so I could get a job, not get my licenses than go travel. Good to read your post, what you suggested is what I have been working on.

Any good places specifically to apply for the winter?

[iflyforpie]

NWONT; my signature stays and you can take it to mean whatever you want. I was in a ranting mood when I changed it (and still am a bit now), but it firmly reflects my beliefs for this industry. You don't see resident doctors scrubbing toilets, do you? No, they are right in the thick of things, learning the trade. This is what you are supposed to be doing for your first job. Every place I have worked, the ground duties have been shared. I even gave away a ton of flying hours to a junior pilot (and did his ground work) so he would have a chance to build up some time.

Remember the most contagious disease in the world is bitching and whining, avoid those who are afflicted.

I know and I say this over and over as well. But where do we draw the line as impoverished low-time pilots?

Randleman; I applaud your aspirations and your achievements thus far. At 18, most of us couldn't see past the upcoming weekend, yet you have achieved a CPL and are bearing the cost of it personally. If you want to work the dock or ramp, as NWONT said it can be beneficial. But you will have to work twice as hard as someone who is in their late 20s or early 30s to earn trust and respect. And there are first jobs out there that don't require staying on the ground and watching planes fly.

[LNAV+V]

Posting seems to be turning into a dick measuring contest... I'd join in but i probably lose
Industry still seems a little slow. It might be tough finding something for the winter season. However, persistency inevitably pays off. Instructing may be a good idea, but do your rating with a flight school that will guarantee you a position afterwards. But I agree with the first few posts, this is a good winter to have a little fun while your still young and rash.

[NWONT]

Man, I've heard motorcycle mechanics compare themselves to doctors. Get past this. Randleman, if you consider yourself a medical intern, you are done before you start. You have put in a lot of hard work and investment but what you have achieved is a learners permit. Many people have walked away from this life because they couldn't hack it. The sacrifice is much to great for the reward. You should figure this out before you get in too deep. It sounds like you are still in touch with reality. You need a first step. My advice still stands. I'll give you some more advice. Don't ever post anything on this forum or any other thinking nobody will know its you. Everybody can be tracked very easily. Every job you will ever get will be because somebody had a good word to say about you or a bad reference. Never stab your buddy in the back or anyone else cause that will come back to haunt you, this could take twenty years but it will happen. When the competition is between you and another guy don't throw him an anvil, the next time you see him he may be on the other side of an interview table. I could go on for hours but I think you get my point. I have met people in many different parts of the world that I thought I'd never see again.

[Randleman]

The difference between being a doctor and being a pilot is a doctor is fully trained once he finishes med school (a pilot can never be "fully trained", all he can do is get experience) and they actually need doctors big time. Not so with pilots, so if I have to get in line and pay my dues I will do so. I have already experienced a bit of the sacrifice, and I'm just getting my toes wet, but I want to fly badly enough, I'm not walking away.

[pilotman15]

Check out Viking Airs website. You would have a hard time finding a better family business than that and they treat all employees like family. .

My buddy worked for them this summer.. loved it. Heard nothing but good things.