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ywgflyboy
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:34 am 
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Let me dig out my grade 9 social studies text... I think that is when we first learn of supply vs demand.


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fly-drink-chicks-music
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Ramp isnt bad. Its not all ramp, check-in, maintenace, there is various spots to fit in. Pay isnt bad, free housing up to half a year, people are going FO in under a year right now.

I agree, were pilots. But if i were to just sit here, apply until i find a flying job, highly unlikely btw. It could likely be years. Hell for me and most of my classmates it was about 1-4 months to find a ground position! There is NO point to simply wait, minus well take what we can get, while getting paid for it and continue applying for flying jobs. Working your time on the ramp was the only way i saw the industry, Sure, 1-5 years or whatever it is, mood will be switched to flying right away for fresh pilots. Right now, it isnt, im having a great time what im doing right now, making decent wages and could be flying as soon as spring. Perimeter is pretty good, strong company, even Bearskin just got linked with the whole EIF. 700-1000 hrs a year, with upgrade to capt at only 1200 hrs on the Metro II.


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scopiton
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:33 am 
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...


Last edited by scopiton on Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fish4life
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:48 am 
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scopiton wrote:
it's not bad in itself to get a ground job while finishing your IFR/ME/CPL/IATRA thing.
the problem is, when you do this to get a right seat, you're distorting the hiring game for the other guys next to you.
ramp people get hired after few months/years on the ramp but they have close to none flight experience and half of it is with an instructor.
so what does really qualify them for a right seat in such company than any other pilot sending his resume with five times more experience who doesn't get hired ?
then what are the real requirements for the position ? Fight experience or ramp experience ? how do we count that ?
will we have to work on the ramp with a valid ATPL to obtain this seat within a good company ?
what is more valuable : a guy who towed aircraft on the ramp, or flight experience in sometimes adverse weather, approach to mins, severe icing enroute ?
it's not even a question of work ethic, but working on the ramp to get a flying job is the best mean to minimize the value of flight experience toward employers.
you guys are burning the bridge who could help you reach the other shore one day.


to be completely honest the best pilots to fly with were the ones with 250 hours when they started and not the people that came in with experience because they didn't have any bad habits and could be taught how to fly the metro right from the beginning. I believe one of the hardest people to train at the company was a guy that came in with 5000 hours, not because he wasn't experienced because he was but he just had a hell of a time adapting to a completely different plane.


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dab81
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:36 am 
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I've also got a problem with that ramp work=apprenticeship for new pilots argument. Sure, lawyers article and doctors reside and mechanics apprentice. I'd say the closest a pilot would come to such a comparison would be the right seat. That's where they'll learn the trade while paying their dues(FO pay and schedule). Of course it's a weak comparison as it doesn't account for single pilot/piston ops.


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xsbank
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Xsbank's Prognostication: this amalgamation will be the kiss of death for these (cough) fine operations. 2 years, restructuring. Cultures, management; Case of Guinness?

Xsbank's Opinion: Ramp work is slave labour. Hire pilots to pilot and hire ramp workers to ramp. If you do not begin a gradual, structured, formal check-out the first week you are hired, you are slave labour and you are getting hosed.


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PunkStarStudios
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:47 am 
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dab81 wrote:
I've also got a problem with that ramp work=apprenticeship for new pilots argument. Sure, lawyers article and doctors reside and mechanics apprentice. I'd say the closest a pilot would come to such a comparison would be the right seat. That's where they'll learn the trade while paying their dues(FO pay and schedule). Of course it's a weak comparison as it doesn't account for single pilot/piston ops.


Bingo!
Exactly.


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Brown Bear
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:26 am 
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fish4life wrote:
scopiton wrote:
it's not bad in itself to get a ground job while finishing your IFR/ME/CPL/IATRA thing.
the problem is, when you do this to get a right seat, you're distorting the hiring game for the other guys next to you.
ramp people get hired after few months/years on the ramp but they have close to none flight experience and half of it is with an instructor.
so what does really qualify them for a right seat in such company than any other pilot sending his resume with five times more experience who doesn't get hired ?
then what are the real requirements for the position ? Fight experience or ramp experience ? how do we count that ?
will we have to work on the ramp with a valid ATPL to obtain this seat within a good company ?
what is more valuable : a guy who towed aircraft on the ramp, or flight experience in sometimes adverse weather, approach to mins, severe icing enroute ?
it's not even a question of work ethic, but working on the ramp to get a flying job is the best mean to minimize the value of flight experience toward employers.
you guys are burning the bridge who could help you reach the other shore one day.


to be completely honest the best pilots to fly with were the ones with 250 hours when they started and not the people that came in with experience because they didn't have any bad habits and could be taught how to fly the metro right from the beginning. I believe one of the hardest people to train at the company was a guy that came in with 5000 hours, not because he wasn't experienced because he was but he just had a hell of a time adapting to a completely different plane.


Nothing wrong with flying with a guy with 250 hours. But two or three years kissing ass on a ramp often leads to a bitter pilot. Personally, I like the guys with around 1500 hours. It's not quite flight school, but they still have something to learn (Don't we all?) and they know it. I suspect the problem you have with a 5000 hour pilot is, that he may just have something to teach you, and you just don't want to admit it. BTW, I'm real curious. Just WTF is a "completely different" airplane?
:bear: :bear:


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notapilot
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Pilots do start off with "ground level" positions at Perimeter. They learn the way things work with the company and I think that they have a respect for the ground people's jobs. The "pilots" start off with jobs in reservations, cargo, accounting, parts department and the ramp department. Not only do they get to know people throughout the company, they have more appreciation of the whole business and its people. I think they see the ins and outs of how things run from the ground up so to speak.


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~Hollywood~
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:02 am 
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Quote:
Just WTF is a "completely different" airplane?


That's easy....an MU2 :mrgreen:


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