PA31 Bond

[mathewc]

I did a little search and found that a 5k one year bond is somewhat reasonable for a PPC on a Navajo. What about a 5k one year bond for a PCC? Could someone explain the exact differences between a PPC and PCC as well? Thanks!

[Sulako]

A PPC involves an actual checkride, a PCC is a company checkout. Doing a PCC on a person is a LOT less expensive than doing a PPC, so it appears the company is trying to pull a fast one by asking for 5k - there is zero chance they will incur 5k in costs to PCC someone.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Also, a PCC is not transferable between companies, and PPC is.

[North Shore]

Are they asking you to give them $5k for a PCC, or just, if you leave within a year, make good their financial 'loss' to the tune of $5k?
1.)If they are asking for $5k up front, then go and look for a better offer, and tell them to pound sand.
2.)If they simply want $5k if you decide to leave within a year, then that's reasonable, if a little steep..

[mathewc]

They are not asking for the money up front. Its just if you leave within a year you have to make good on the bond.

Thanks for the info.

[Bushav8er]

Its just if you leave within a year you have to make good on the bond.

$5T is steep (for a PCC), have them pro-rate it.

[pilotbc69]

And ensure you stipulate the terms in case of a layoff/termination situation. If they are charging you that much for a pcc they would probably enjoy spending your money while they push you out the door onto the unemployment line.

[North Shore]

^ Good points, both.

[The Old Fogducker]

Gentlemen:

There is no difference between a Pilot Competancy Check (PCC) and a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) except for who conducts the ride, and the additional privileges which flow from possessing a PPC on type.

A PCC can be done by the Chief Pilot or his delegate, a PPC must be done by an ACP or a TC Inspector. Each must cover exactly the same items in Schedule 1 of the Flight Test Guide. Further, the "ride" must be done in addition to the minimum flight times in the COM, because "checking is not training."

The training program is the same for both, the minimum number of flight training hours ... usually 4 for initial is also the same .... and, Check Pilot variances aside, supposedly the flight test standards are the same for both.

It is very important to note that not just the minimum number of hours in the COM matrix must be flown, but also all of the required excersizes described in the CASS must be completed to an acceptable standard of proficiency or competency. I would suggest that it is pretty unlikely (but certainly not impossible) for all of the required excersizes (with the inevitable remedial excersize repeats) to be accomplished in the minimum COM training matrix of 4 hours from most airports in the country.

There is no cost difference to the company unless they have a separate Transport Canada approved training program in their Operations Manual for First Officers who will do that job based upon a PCC as opposed to a PPC. I would respectfully submit that would be very out of the ordinary, but not impossible.

One other thing I would like to add ... ask the question whether the company has an organized training program lesson plan structure, or do you just take off without a briefing, stooge around the sky with the training pilot showing you whatever he thinks you should know about the airplane. You should be able to know exactly what you will be doing before the next flight so you can study up on the specific material.... not just "well, you should study and know everything ... you've got a licence don't 'ya? .. you should be able to figure this out yourself if you were any kind of pilot deserving of a licence."

You could summarize the training program by saying ..... "if a piece of equipment is installed on the airplane, you should be taught how to use it, and its limitations or specific procedures ... to an acceptable level of competency."

The Old Fogducker

Here is a list of the required flight training excersizes, copied & pasted from CASS 723.98 (10)

(10) Aeroplane Flight Training Program

Any simulated failures of aeroplane systems shall only take place under operating conditions which do not jeopardize safety of flight.

(a) Standard Operating Procedures for normal, abnormal and emergency operation of the aeroplane systems and components including:

(i) use of aeroplane checklists including interior and exterior pre-flight checks;

(ii) manoeuvring of the aeroplane on the ground;

(iii) aspects of flight and cabin crew co-operation, command and co-ordination;

(iv) normal take-off, visual circuit, approach and landing;

(v) simulated aeroplane and cargo fire on the ground and while airborne;

(vi) simulated engine fire and failure;

(vii) briefings on effects of airframe and engine icing and anti-ice operation;

(viii) take-off, landing and flight with the critical engine simulated inoperative, including driftdown and engine inoperative performance capabilities;

(ix) on 3- and 4-engine aeroplanes inflight procedures including approach and landing with 2 engines simulated inoperative (applies to P-I-C only);

(x) simulated loss of pressurization and emergency descent;

(xi) no electronic glide slope approach and landing;

(xii) simulated hydraulic, electrical and other system failures;

(xiii) simulated flight control failures and abnormalities;

(xiv) simulated failure of navigation and communication equipment;

(xv) simulated pilot incapacitation - recognition and response;

(xvi) briefing on recovery from turbulence and windshear on take-off and approach;

(xvii) approach to the stall and recovery procedure simulating ground contact imminent and ground contact not a factor (clean, take-off and landing configuration);

(xviii) buffet onset boundary, steep turns (45º of bank) and other flight characteristics (as applicable for initial and upgrade only);

(xix) aeroplane performance for climb, cruise, holding, descent and landing;

(xx) normal and performance limited take-offs;

(xxi) crosswind take-off and landing, and briefing on contaminated runway take-off and landing;

(xxii) take-off and landing data calculations;

(xxiii) simulated rejected take-off procedures (at or below 60 kts) and rejected landings;

(xxiv) briefing on crew and passenger evacuation procedures; and

(xxv) other specialized aeroplane equipment (where applicable).

(b) Flight planning and instrument flight procedures where the air operator is authorized for VFR flight at night or flight in IMC:

(i) departure, enroute, holding and arrival; and

(ii) all types of instrument approaches and missed approaches in simulated minimum visibility conditions, including circling approaches (where applicable) using all levels of automation available (as applicable).

[just curious]

I don't believe a PCC merits any bond at all, since a departing pilot will have to do at the least the recurrent training and PPC or PPC at company B.

Since there is in effect no cost saving to a new company, there is no employer attraction. A PPC is a different thing altogether

[turbo-prop]

For a PPC you have to pay an ACP or TC guy to do the PPC. PCC anybody in the company can do it.

[The Old Fogducker]

To train a staff member, regardless of position, a company expends considerable resources. Especially its most valuable investment commodity ... time.

For a new staff member to make the decision to leave before a reasonable period of time transpires, it is reasonable for the company to anticipate recovery of some fraction of those costs involved in the training process because the individual has broken his/her promise with respect to the minimum time of employment.

A pilot leaving with a PPC being required to post a bond to back up his word and handshake because the PPC has a perceived value to another operator vs a PCC is a canard. Why a pilot would leave to do a sideways career move is questionable, but personal reasons or the possibility to move onward and upward onto larger equipment with a different employer sometimes comes into play.

OFD

[Dust Devil]

They need to abandon the whole PPC thing altogether. The only thing the PPC has accomplished is creating a rift between operators and pilots.

[willing to fly]

PCC's are transferrable between companies. Typically they will not be added to your license as it's not a rating but if you can provide all of your training records etc. you can bring a PCC with you to a new company.

[pilotbc69]

And a PPC doesn't expire so if you have it then you can always revert back to it down the road when your billionare father in law wants you to fly his Pa-31 and throws you the family credit card. Always have to be thinking ahead.

[The Old Fogducker]

A PPC does expire.

It is only valid for one year unless the annual recurrent training program, plus extra training is done to extend its validity for a second 12 month period.

After that, it can remain expired for 2 more years and may be renewed based upon completing recurrent training.

Once that happens, you're back to zero and need to take all PPC training over again as an initial applicant.

BC69 .. you may be thinking of a type rating never expiring .. which is correct.

Plus if daddy the billionaire want you to fly the family PA31 sedan to the family reunion, you don't need a type rating or any other qualification beyond a basic multi-engine rating.

[pilotbc69]

Ah yes...my apologies I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification FD.

[stopbar]

If its in London (CYXU) save yourself a lot of heartache and cash and run the other way.

The Bar

[petey]

Also, if the father-in-law is a billionaire, I think I'd try and lean him towards a little nicer machine than a Navajo ... now back to the topic at hand.

[airliner]

Sounds like PEI air.

If it is about location, and you have no other option dont fight it. I would speculate you are a lower time guy/gal, and you have to make your break in aviation somehow. I would take this opportunity and enjoy yourself for a year or three.
A PCC is a cheeper way to get you into their system. Also it prevents you from begging for an up-grade. Since you cant be PIC unless you have a PPC.

AND I AM OUT