North Star

[Brown Bear]

Okay, I was blown away. This operation always seemed to be pretty pilot friendly in the past, but now I hear they have joined the ranks of the "pay for your training up front" parade. Sad commentary on our industry, when a company charges 10K for a Caravan PPC, then takes several months to actually give the pilot a PPC? Seriously, are you guys/gals really THAT hard up for a job, that you'll buy one, on a single engine airplane...in Pickle Lake? And, I KNOW you are NOT 250 hour pilots. You have the time to find a job...not buy one.
End of rant.

[mr.jinks]

This industry is full of whores and rich kids, Thats why im leaving. I want to spend time with my kids and have a pension to look forward to, not to mention decent pay. I really don't understand why people accept absolute shit wages and degrading lifestyle to eventually make 100k plus when they're 50 or more years old. I'd like to enjoy life while im somewhat young and be able to watch my family grow up. So I'm sadly leaning towards leaving flying to get a secure job that pays 5 times what I make now with full medical/dental/pension package.. weekends off to boot!, so its really not that sad. This whole industry is completely mental... I wish I had this hindsight ten years ago. You young people looking to make a career of this, I hope you the best.

[beast]

get a secure job that pays 5 times what I make now with full medical/dental/pension package..

Hey mr. jinks, would you mind stating your current salary and package, and then the one which is 5 times better, please.

Lots of people make statements like this on this forum, and I think we'd all like to start seeing them backed up with some numbers and facts.

Thanks!

[fish4life]

Okay, I was blown away. This operation always seemed to be pretty pilot friendly in the past, but now I hear they have joined the ranks of the "pay for your training up front" parade. Sad commentary on our industry, when a company charges 10K for a Caravan PPC, then takes several months to actually give the pilot a PPC? Seriously, are you guys/gals really THAT hard up for a job, that you'll buy one, on a single engine airplane...in Pickle Lake? And, I KNOW you are NOT 250 hour pilots. You have the time to find a job...not buy one.
End of rant.

are they straight up buying PPC's or is it a training bond in your name that the company pays back for you?

just curious not being critical (just wanted to clarify since sometimes text leaves tone out)

[Brown Bear]

fish4life, it's straight cash up front, I'm afraid. The, it's more than a couple of months of (line indoc?) with the CP before they get a PPC....in a frikken Caravan? Please, help me to understand the mentality here.
I guess it's the way things are going in the industry. Happy to be leaving it soon, because you'd have to be a misguided soul to be getting into aviation in this country right now. I guess, I'm really more disappointed than critical? There is something wrong, when a person, with 1500 hours, will up front 10K to live and fly in Pickle Lake. I guess I just don't get it? Why would you do that? "Because, that's the way it is.." is an answer I would expect from a total retard. I've met a lot of young pilots. Very few of you are retards....so why?

[LegoMan]

The Pay-For-PPC thing will not go away. There are many jobs that require it. I won't get into any names but lets remember the defunct Jetsgo? $30,000 ... and none of those guys were 250 hour wonders either.

[Brown Bear]

The Pay-For-PPC thing will not go away. There are many jobs that require it. I won't get into any names but lets remember the defunct Jetsgo? $30,000 ... and none of those guys were 250 hour wonders either.

I fear you are correct. It won't go away, because the young pilots' parents keep paying it! I'm even willing to live with it in the case of a Boeing 777 rating, as some guarantee the chap won't run off to Cathay. But 10K to live in Pickle, and fly a Caravan? Pilots really are not all that bright! AND, lets not forget, those Jetsgo guys were OUT their 30 Large!

[fish4life]

ah i see, thanks brown that is brutal then it would be different if it was a bond under your name but if you go fired/ layed off/ company went under then it was the companies responsibility, at that price they are probably making money off training these kids

[twincomanche]

hey i got an idea. why dont u guys just get a job at walmart. the pay is better and ur home every night with ur family. so stop effing it up for the rest of the pilots by accepting crap ass pay and lifestyle. u need to start respecting urself.

[Cap'n P8]

You can call it what you want, but you will get every cent back and that starts the day you start, not when you get your PPC. I am quite a few years removed now, but you will be flying the Caravan fairly quickly even without the PPC as it's only required once you start flying pax. Pickle Lake would not be my choice for retirement, but I enjoyed my time there as did my family. I was also able to save up some good cash there as the cost of living is pretty cheap and the salary was good.

As for the owners, they are some of the nicest people you're going to meet. My job interview (they airlined me to YQT and picked my up with the Van) consisted of wings and beer. How many 703 (or 704/705) operators do you think would pay for you to come stay and see the place for a few days. You will be expected to do other things than just flying as they are a small operation. For instance, once a week (or thereabouts) we would get together to sweep the hangar. Bernie would be on the broom beside you, which says a lot about his leadership style.

Bernie and Lynn hosted many parties for the staff while I was there which was much appreciated. Then there were those busy days when everyone was going at it hard. When the last a/c was parked in the yard or the barn, it was present position direct the Winston where Bernie picked up the tab.

But you're right, it's a terrible place to work!

[North Shore]

The summer that I was there was the first year that they ran the 'Vans. Earlier in the spring, prior to the lodge season, and before the 'Van came online from TBay, we discovered that the Otter's rear float attach point, and the underlying structure, had been bent by a hard landing. The 'plane was sent off into the hangar, leaving us with a C210 as the only revenue-generating plane that the company had. Four pilots looked at each other wondering who was going to be the first to get laid off. Bernie kept us all employed for the 2-3 weeks that it took to get the machine fixed - a not insubstantial sum for a company that had just started in the previous fall.

If I had to, I'd go back to YPL in a second.

[Brown Bear]

P8 and North Shore....first off, nobody said it wasn't a good place to work. Nobody said anything negative about Bernie or Lynn. They're fine folks.
Also, worth notting....neither of you paid 10K up front money to fly there.
Happy you enjoyed your time with North Star...but how can you defend the practice? Because you guys were happy there in the past..it makes it alright? Not in my book.
Note to Bernie and Lynn......pilots will stay with you simply because you treat them well. You have a good reputation as people to work for...and as a operation. You did not have to go this route. I'd be interested to know why you felt it necessary?

[Cap'n P8]

Well, I got hired in 2004 and they DID have the bond then. Would have preferred not too do it, but it was my last kick at the can, or else I was going into ATC. Almost 2000 hours at the time with an ATPL but very little multi-time, no turbine time, and couldn't get a job on a Cessna 310 (for all those guys complaining about companies wanting 500 hours to fly a Navajo) because of my "lack of experience".

Up against a rock and a hard place with a wife and kid and two big dogs, no money coming in, if I had to do it again I would. And you kind of misled that other fellow, because nobody bought a PPC there. We all got the money back. Then there's always guys that imply that it must be a shitty place to work, which was far from the truth. It was a fantastic place to work. I bet most of the guys who would slag the place without knowing anything about it, would be blown away by the salary and working conditions.

[fish4life]

sounds like a great company to work for actually, glad to here they actually care about the pilots and don't treat them like shit.

[Brown Bear]

It was a fantastic place to work. I bet most of the guys who would slag the place without knowing anything about it, would be blown away by the salary and working conditions.

That's my whole point. I know it well. It IS a great place to work (pity it's in YPL, though) so why do they need to collect money? I can't see anybody skipping town on them. At least, not over the job.
Generic comment here....not aimed at North Star....this whole "pilot skipping out with a fresh PPC...." is an excuse. It has happened, to be sure...but it's pretty bloody rare. For every pilot who has screwed a company, I can name several companies that screw pilots. Guess I'm on a one pilot crusade to stamp out up front cash "bonds"?

[Windatmyback]

Back in the day, there was no training bond. Now there is. Why d'ya think? Probably too many freshly PPCd pilots heading south to fly a Caravan for ___________ (add any southern Caravan operator here). I know that if I had a well run company, in a not so nice place, and pilots kept leaving soon after spending thousands on their training, I'd be looking for some re-assurance too. Let's face it, it might only be a few of 'us' that do it, but there's still too many of 'us' that don't keep our word all of the time.

[LegoMan]

If you have a company in a not so desired area, that is your problem. No one is forcing you to do business there. Most operators feel that once you give them the money they own you and can treat you like shit because you wont leave. In no other industry of my knowledge, does an employer request money to ensure the employee will stick around, especially a large amount that aviation companies are taking. If you pay an upfront bond, you are a moron, plain and simple. My training for my non-aviation job cost my company in the area of $130,000 when it was all said and done. My best friends training who works in industrial automation cost nearly $500,000. Not one of our employers asked for a bond, promisary note or anyting. I don't care that it's not a flying job, I don't care that these are small companies that can't afford to train pilots so many times a year. Most companies don't make the effort to retain good pilots. As I have always said aviation is expensive, if you can't afford to run a company in that industry than go sell flowers. You work to get paid not pay to work.

[North Shore]

Most operators feel that once you give them the money they own you and can treat you like shit because you wont leave.

But, you've missed the above comments - they don't treat you like shit...

[LegoMan]

They may not, but it is common knowledge in the industry that most operators do.