B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

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cks1984
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B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by cks1984 »

After working as a flight instructor for three years, finally I have enough time and experience to move on to the next step.
Currently, I got a job offer from two diffrent companies. However I just want to listen from you to make my decision wisely.
I am a young pilot (mid 20s) and graduated one of the flight college in Ontario. I am doing flight instructing in Vancouver now. I have around 1,500 hours total (mostly single). My career goal is a captain in one of the major airlines (hopefully Canada).

1. Company A

(+)They offered me a F/O position in one of thier Navajo fleets and within a year or so they will ungrade me to Kingair.
No bond. No training cost.

(-) The pay will be around 2,000/month and I have to live in one of the coldest area in Canada which I don't mind that much.


2. Company B (it's not Lion air)

(+)They offered me a F/O position in B737-400 (EFIS). They will pay me 4,000 US (after linecheck / before linecheck around 1,000 US) and 5,000 US second year as a F/O. Due to lack of pilots there, I will fly alot (1,000 hours/year). Their contract is 3-years and can be renewed if I and they want. Company ordered many 737-NGs and Embraer 175,190,195. Possible Fleet Upgrade.

(-) I have to live in Jakarta Indonesia. I have to pay for my type rating which is 9,900 US. Due to huge line-up in Indonesia Sim centre, they wanted me to go US (PanAm International Academy Miami, FL : $9,900) for the type rating.


If you are in this situation, What Would you Choose?
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Last edited by cks1984 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BverLuver
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by BverLuver »

CKS1984,

Good luck with whichever you choose. My opinion though is that you are being dangled the magical mythical carrot. Never take a companies "promise" of upgrades at face value until they have proven otherwise to you directly. Things can literally change overnight, so if its not in writing, it isn't worth a hill of beans, even then, its not worth much. So, as others have said numerous time, where would you be happier or further ahead if the music stops 6 months from now and you were forced to stay 5-6years in the position you sit at that time, whether navajo, king air, or 737?

I am sorry, but I do not envy either of these choices.

BL
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Doc
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Doc »

First off, a 737 "classic" would be a 100/200 series. The 300 on up have at least the high bypass engines? Some 300's are glass.
Frankly, I'd be very tempted to bite the bullet and go with the 737. When your contract ends, you'll be qualified to fly 25% of the world's airline fleet. Which just happen to be the % of 737's in service vs., all the other types in use. In other words...HIGHLY employable.


PS

Actually 9900$ is a steal! Bearskin wants 10K for the right seat of a Metro!



(+)They offered me a F/O position in one of thier Navajo fleets and within a year or so they will ungrade me to Kingair.
No bond. No training cost.

PLUS.......I'm sure this can't be guaranteed. Never is.
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GreasySideDown
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by GreasySideDown »

Doc wrote:First off, a 737 "classic" would be a 100/200 series. The 300 on up have at least the high bypass engines? Some 300's are glass.

Technically the 737 "Classic" would be the 300/400/500. http://www.b737.org.uk/history.htm We refer to the 100/200 as the "Jurassic". The early 300's Had hardball gyros, similar to the 100/200, later model 300's as well as the 400's and 500's were all glass. All had high bypass CFM 56 engines.

I agree with Doc. I'd take the overseas job, provided you don't mind being that far from home.
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GreasySideDown
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by GreasySideDown »

This might be a place to start when considering Indonesia as well viewtopic.php?f=13&t=80736

After some thorough research there may be more to consider.
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frog
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by frog »

Actually the classic serie is the 300 400 and 500 which have EFIS, not whole glass like the NG but pretty advanced. Going from classic to NG is a quick transition course.

I would like to know if I were you what would happen if you need more hours of sim to grab the 737 since after all going from instructing to the 737 is quite a steep learning curve !

I am not saying you can't do it, but just in case.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I think you need to read the fine print about the 737 type rating. I am pretty sure that $9900 costs only applies to someone who already has a large aircraft type rating with experience and is simply adding the 737 as a new type. I also believe (and I stand by to be corrected) that to be awarded an initial jet type rating requires some landings and takeoffs ( 5 ? ) in an actual airplane. I don't know what the hourly rental costs for a B 737 are but I am guessing it is a pretty big number.

In any case I am going to be a contrarian and say go for the Ho job. The Indonesian airline industry is a total shit show. It is so bad that I have heard reputable major world airlines are starting to reject applicants at the initial vetting stage if all they have is Indonesian airline time because experience has shown the products of that countries airline "culture" are not what they want. The other reason is that the Ho job is not glamorous but you will get the kind of hand flying and real world decision making, that is invaluable for developing the skills and judgement a new commercial pilot needs.
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frog
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by frog »

Yes you need take off and landings (3) but it can be done in some simulators, level D I believe.
And yes I would be very careful to what I am getting myself into...
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just curious
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by just curious »

Buy the Snowgoose. They will turnover enough pilots in the next while that you will be moving up soon enough. Conveniently, there will be a 737 "Advanced" pulling up beside you on the ramp every day, so you can pass a resume to one of their drivers, who would only recently have been in your shoes. then you could fly a Boeing without laying out the cash. Wouldn't be a Classic though.
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Doc
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Doc »

I turned down a captain gig in Jakarta many years ago. It was on an F27, which I was current on at the time. Always kind of regretted not doing it. Not so much because it was a "dream" job, actually far from it (which is why I declined the kind offer) but the experience would have been so different from what I'm used to, it would have enriched my general knowledge of "life". Kind of like backpacking around Europe as a hippie. You might not get a thing out of it, but photographs and memories. Sometimes that's worth it. All on it's own.
I sit corrected. Frog is correct. The 3,4,500 series IS the "classic". Pika tells me the 1,200 series is the "Jurassic"..LOL!
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GyvAir
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by GyvAir »

I'm not a pilot, but I've worked with and flown with countless pilots, products of all manners of career routes.
When it comes to who I would want working for me, working with me, or piloting an aircraft with my family was on board, I'll take the guy who worked his way up from "the bush" so to speak over the one that jumped at right seat jet time early in his or her career.
I would say Big Pistons Forever knows of what he speaks. You need to be in a position forcing you to make piloting decisions to develop good piloting skills.
The guys I've worked with who had scads of right seat jet time and not much prop time often seemed a little behind the curve to me.
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Doc
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Doc »

GyvAir wrote: The guys I've worked with who had scads of right seat jet time and not much prop time often seemed a little behind the curve to me.
Interesting take on it. If you're not a pilot, how would you know if they're "behind the curve" or not. What would you be basing that on? Not trying to be rude here (for a change) but if I'm a passenger, I really have no reference point. You better stay away most European carriers, because those guys think props are for boats.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

From the Pan Am website......

Boeing 737-300/400/500 SIC Initial Qualification, Part 61.55


This course provides the SIC crewmember with the necessary knowledge and skills to obtain a SIC Qualification Check, meeting the requirements of Part 61.55. The course is incomplete until documentation is provided for one takeoff and landing in the B737 aircraft.

If you are required to have the type rating before you start then you are going to be renting your own personal airliner.......
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broompusher
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by broompusher »

If you want to take the scenic route in your career, go for the Navajo job. You will have many awesome experiences and make lifelong friends. If you want to skip all that and take the expressway to the end result, take the 737 job. Airline flying is relatively mundane and rehearsed. There are positives and negatives for both choices. Ultimately you have to choose what is going to be best for you.

As for the comment regarding airlines not hiring Indonesian airline guys, it is the first I have heard of it (I'm not discounting it, just never heard that before). We have a few guys from Indonesia at the airline I work for, and having flown with few Indonesians myself I would say they are completely on par with everyone else. Also pointed out was having 737 type rating (once you have 500hrs on type) does make you a high value commodity in the world of airline jobs.

Good luck in your decision!
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by JMACK »

Fly the PA-31 in Canada!

You will be a King Air skipper in no time.

Also being 12 time zones away from people that love ya..........sucks!

Not Lion...............Garuda????
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Last edited by JMACK on Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by JMACK »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:From the Pan Am website......

Boeing 737-300/400/500 SIC Initial Qualification, Part 61.55


This course provides the SIC crewmember with the necessary knowledge and skills to obtain a SIC Qualification Check, meeting the requirements of Part 61.55. The course is incomplete until documentation is provided for one takeoff and landing in the B737 aircraft.

If you are required to have the type rating before you start then you are going to be renting your own personal airliner.......

I do not believe even a take off and landing gives you a type rating the 61.55 is a qualification check right seat only.

You need a 61.58 ride and do a circling approach on the ride or you get a restricted type rating......FAA not like TC!

Ah that PA-31 is looking better and better....Eh!
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Last edited by JMACK on Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

frog
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by frog »

On the other hand, in Europe people goes from the flight school to the jet and it seems to work fine.
So I guess with the proper training and a honest company, why not ?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

JMACK wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:From the Pan Am website......

Boeing 737-300/400/500 SIC Initial Qualification, Part 61.55


This course provides the SIC crewmember with the necessary knowledge and skills to obtain a SIC Qualification Check, meeting the requirements of Part 61.55. The course is incomplete until documentation is provided for one takeoff and landing in the B737 aircraft.

If you are required to have the type rating before you start then you are going to be renting your own personal airliner.......

I do not believe even a take off and landing gives you a type rating the 61.55 is a qualification check right seat only.

You need a 61.58 ride and do a circling approach on the ride or you get a restricted type rating......FAA not like TC!

Ah that PA-31 is looking better and better....Eh!
A good point. What constitutes a "type rating" varies significantly depending on which countries license you are going to put the type rating on, under what flight rules you are working under, and what seat you are sitting in......and you of course have to get that countries license first. This can be a non trivial event as for example converting a FAA or TC ATPL to a JAA/EASA ATPL can be a 6 month many thousands of dollars endurance test.

Personally the Indonesian job offer doesn't pass the BPF smell test. Ultimately it is your decision, the only advice I can offer that is worth anything, is to do a lot of research before you make up your mind. PPRUNE is a good resource if you are not already looking there.
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iflyforpie
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by iflyforpie »

To me, the 737 from instructor seems like going from first gear to fifth whereas the humble Navajo would be more like snatching second and then third (King Air).

On a 737 you are going to be bogged down with inexperience and possibly debt that an upgrade will be very far away. You will probably find that those who got some MPIC on a Ho and then some turbine time in a King Air will be at a larger (and probably more local and reputable) carrier in no time and perhaps even making captain sooner.
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Doc
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Doc »

iflyforpie wrote:To me, the 737 from instructor seems like going from first gear to fifth whereas the humble Navajo would be more like snatching second and then third (King Air).

On a 737 you are going to be bogged down with inexperience and possibly debt that an upgrade will be very far away. You will probably find that those who got some MPIC on a Ho and then some turbine time in a King Air will be at a larger (and probably more local and reputable) carrier in no time and perhaps even making captain sooner.
One question for you "pie".....Why?
Hey baby, ya only live once. Take a walk on the wild side. A 'ho pilot. Yup. That's the "safe" route. Boring as FU(K! But hey, it's safe. Nothing to look back on. Nothing EVERY other loser pilot hasn't done. Wouldn't want to be "bogged down with inexperience and possible debt...." Not like paying 10K to fly with Wasaya, Bearskin, or any number of more local. less challenging positions will "cost".....but it's the accepted route for the Canadian pilot?
Go for it. That 'ho job will still be there if it don;t work out. The Boeing job? Not likely. But hey, the 'ho is the safe way to go. After all, all the operators of Navajos in this country are an absolute delight to work for. No pressure. No overloads. Autopilots always work.....
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Just another canuck
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by Just another canuck »

You're young and can be in a jet in Canada soon enough. If its overseas work you want, that won't be far behind. I've flown on Lion and Garuda a lot. Garuda has giant placards on their instrument panel stating approach speeds... Cause they've tried to land at 200 knots too many times. :/
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tbaylx
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by tbaylx »

Personally I would stay far far away from any Indonesian 737 operators as an F/O. They don't exactly have the best history and i'm not really sure the SOP's and the line flying you'd be taught there would make you a desirable pilot. If it were in Canada or a reputable operator i'd say take the jet time any day. Given the choices you'd mentioned there i'f be far more inclined to take the canadian job.

In the end it's up to you, bu do your research before moving overseas. Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.
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wallypilot
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by wallypilot »

tbaylx wrote: Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.
+1

This is especially true when talking about airline flying. Once you leave, it will be very hard to come back years later, not necessarily becase it's hard to find a job, but more because you personally won't want to take the pay cut to come back to Canada.

You also don't tend to get Military Coups or general uprisings in Canada. Things can change overnight in a country like Indonesia.

Personally, I'd stay in Canada. You'll be in a turbine in no time.

Now, going overseas to work with a Canadian, American, or European Operation is a completely different thing. That would be no problem.
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North Shore
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by North Shore »

My $.05 would be to stick with the boring-but-tried-and-true 'Ho/kingair route.

Why?

Less unknowns - dozens have trodden the path before you, and it's worked out for them.

Going from a 152/72 to a 737 is a HUGE step. I'm sure that the plane flies like most others, but the complexity of systems/sop's, and the sheer speed of the thing will make your head spin.

$10k? Really? How long is the initial 737 course @ WJ - I'd be willing to guess that it's in the neighbourhood of a month - do you really think that you're going to circumvent that with a 10k cheapo course in the States? Perhaps if you had previous Boeing time, and were familiar with their philosophy and systems design. Did you include in the 10k the cost of living for a number of weeks in a hotel/crashpad while you learn the beast?

Sadly, there's no quick route to experience - trying to jump 3 or 4 steps on the ladder could well end in tears..
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GyvAir
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Re: B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

Post by GyvAir »

Doc wrote:If you're not a pilot, how would you know if they're "behind the curve" or not. What would you be basing that on? Not trying to be rude here (for a change) but if I'm a passenger, I really have no reference point.
Fair question, Doc.

By flying with, I mean in the right seat or jump seat on ferry and test flights. I'm definitely not a pilot, but have gained enough familiarity with cockpit procedures to know when the PIC (or co-pilot for that matter) is comfortable making decisions under a bit of stress, i.e. challenging weather, congestion, malfunctions, etc.
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