Sky Regional Hiring

[anonymity]

Jazz pilots being pissy, trying to find a scapegoat for their new poverty pay.

Ok, PROC_HDG please enlighten us self righteous Jazz pilots as to why we have a new lower wage!
I'm curious what you could possibly imagine would be the reason, other than Sky and now GGN were doing the same work for a lot less, please, I'm in desperate need of a new scapegoat!
I also wouldn't brag too much that you make significantly more to start now, CR will be watching that and Sky might find themselves losing out on any new work down the road.
I believe that was a major deciding factor for most of us. Get cheaper and instead of losing work to the competition we would gain.
Question is, when they come to you and ask how much cheaper you will go to get work, will you undercut Jazz once AGAIN?

[anonymity]

PROC_HDG Wrote;

Inverted2 wrote:
Wonder if they will still be starting the Embrarer 175 flying on Feb 28? I heard they don't allow commuting and you have to live within 100 km of base. Any truth to this?


April 1st entry into service for the 5 new EMBs.

Many guys commute. There is no 100km rule that I'm aware of.

cj555 wrote:
Or will there be no raises given at all besides the inflation adjustment?


There is a 6 year pay scale that brings the pay up to around $83000/year (based on 80 hrs/month) for a 6 year capt. This is seperate from the COLA increases.

ikarus wrote:
I really, really find it hard to understand why would some go there before Jazz....unless you are laid off. Even then it's not clear to me.


Starting pay is significantly better than Jazz and upgrade is significantly quicker (which means captain pay after 1-2 years instead of 5-6). Now too, there is the potential for a chance at mainline through Sky. If you are hired tomorrow at Jazz, you are NOT included on the PML list. Jazz on the whole is looking at long term fleet reduction. Sky is looking at fleet growth. I find it hard to understand why somebody would go to Jazz before Sky tbh.

Sky_Conqueror wrote:
I constantly keep hearing people are trying to get out. The way out to Porter right next door for some could be a good enterprise.


Most of the attrition is to Transat, Sunwing, AC Mainline, Overseas etc. Of course people are trying to get out. People have been leaving Jazz for these jobs for ages...why does it suprise you that they are leaving Sky for the same jobs? Why would anybody leave Sky for Porter where the upgrade is longer, the pay is lower and the future is far less certain?? News flash: they don't. In fact, there are a ton of ex-Porter people at Sky. If you were actually in the position of trying to get out of the 703/4 world and having a chance at a reasonable long-term career, you would have done your research and figured this out. Nobody is saying that Sky is some rosey career destination to strive for, but it is a good career move right now for a lot of people who are spending 100 hours a month flying shitboxes on to gravel in b~ttF!ck nowhere.

There are like a million threads about Maple all over these forums with lots of good information scattered throughout lots of salty righteous Jazz pilots being pissy, trying to find a scapegoat for their new poverty pay. The search function will answer a lot of the above questions.

PROC_HDG

[PROC_HDG]

Jazz pilots being pissy, trying to find a scapegoat for their new poverty pay.

Ok, PROC_HDG please enlighten us self righteous Jazz pilots as to why we have a new lower wage!
I'm curious what you could possibly imagine would be the reason, other than Sky and now GGN were doing the same work for a lot less, please, I'm in desperate need of a new scapegoat!
I also wouldn't brag too much that you make significantly more to start now, CR will be watching that and Sky might find themselves losing out on any new work down the road.
I believe that was a major deciding factor for most of us. Get cheaper and instead of losing work to the competition we would gain.
Question is, when they come to you and ask how much cheaper you will go to get work, will you undercut Jazz once AGAIN?

You can blame GGN, Encore, ALPA, ACPA, Sky and the list goes on when it comes to deciding who facilitated lowering the industry standard. I took a pay raise going to Sky. I didn't go to spite Jazz, nobody does. Would you have others in the 703/704 world continue to try and kill themselves up north instead of going to Sky simply as a matter of principle?

Many at Sky came here due to a layoff, or from much worse places. We did not come here to lower the bar, and if we hadn't, somebody else would have. Jazz guys are a really fantastic group of professionals, I am the first one to say it, and I understand your frustration and that your hands were tied when you voted in the new agreement. However, there is a small minority of you - probably a lot of them post here; probably the same guys that give us dirty looks in the terminal and kick us out of the jumpseat when they find out we work for sky - that are intent on attacking us personally for 'single-handedly lowering the bar'. Give me a break.

Now that Jazz has starting pay almost as low as GGN, are you encouraging people not to apply to Jazz? Do they not legitimize that pay by accepting the job? By working for $36/hr (or $2/hr less than encore) are you not lowering the bar by accepting a job at Jazz?

PROC_HDG

PS - I deleted my original post because i realized I was replying to 3 year old replies. Which begs the question: Why did Sky_Conqueror resurrect this thread from the dead when there are about 5 other more current ones on the subject???

[anonymity]

PROC_HDG, in fact I do discourage pilots from applying at Jazz and during the road show presentation I asked one of the managers who was trying to sell us on the new wages, if he thought this would cause a problem attracting new pilots. The response was quite honest and based on reality but surprised me just the same. I'm paraphrasing, we will know in a few months if we went too low and at that point if we can't, we'll have to reevaluate.
So yes, if the pilots would stop whoring themselves out, the wages would go up but so far Sky, GGN, Encore and now Jazz have been able to fill the spots so what ya gona do.
My philosophy about voting in the new wages was, if pilots accepted the new wages they could only blame themselves and a No vote most probably ment no new hires at Jazz, just a slow spiral dive into 2020 oblivion.
The Jumpseat thing, although I don't agree with it I understand why and it is no different than why some AC pilots won't take a Jazz pilot in their JS, a different reason but same outcome.
Food for thought, if you have animosity towards a group for a perceived wrong, how safe do you think it is to have someone from that group sitting in your flight deck, possibly even unintentionally bringing up something potentially irritating? I think some of the most professional pilots out there would have a hard time putting aside their personal feelings in that situation.

[loopa]

I got no dog in this, but pilot's treating each other like garbage is in my opinion even worse than how our industry treats us.

The thing I don't understand is this. Bob chose to work at Sky Regional. Joe is a Captain at Jazz whom won't let Bob jump seat because he's with Sky Regional. Joe thinks it's because of guys like Bob that he had to vote for a contract out of force.

In a different life, Bob is a Captain at Jazz, and Joe is looking for work. Joe is collecting EI, and get's a job offer from Sky Regional. Joe takes the offer from Sky Regional to feed his family.

Point being, if any of you Jazz pilot's who treat the rest of the CPA carriers like garbage were in their shoes/experience level, and looking for work, you'd be taking the jobs that Sky Regional/GGN/Encore offer as well. Don't be treating someone wrong solely because savy airline managers are building companies off our backs. And if the regional pilot group wouldn't have provided a back for these managers to build a company off of, they would have cutback somewhere else, most likely at the major(s) level. Rouge anyone?

I understand your argument, if Bob doesn't take the job at Sky Regional, Joe wouldn't have voted for a terrible contract. What you're pissed about is human nature. As humans we are always looking for ways to get ahead/improve our life, and a lot of times are forced to make unpopular decisions for a longer term setup of tailwinds and blue skies. And to you bitter Jazz pilot's, I challenge you to a day where you get laid off, are forced to go on EI, and say NO to a SR type job because it will drive the industry down. You wouldn't, and anyone saying they would rather collect EI is most likely a hypocritical coward. Similarly as a human being, a pilot whom has 50k invested into their education will take a job (even if the conditions suck) in order to get ahead. What's he supposed to do? Collect EI for the rest of his life so that you don't have to vote in a contract that you hate today? You'd still have to vote a similar contract in tomorrow for a different reason. To think your regional industry would be protected if the Sky/GGN/Encore drivers' didn't exist is naive thinking. These airline managers know what they're doing, and they're doing it well. They would just cutback something else to make it all work in their little game of "Schemers-Monopoly."

What has happened to regional flying conditions is abysmal, but for heavens sake, don't take it out on each other. If you're going to prevent the SR/GGN guy from jump seating, kick your 34k/yr F/O out of the cockpit as well, because he/she accepted new low wages AFTER you voted in your retirement plan. In your books, the guy accepting conditions at SR is the same type of "scab" like your new hire F/O. So why not treat them the same?

Again, I think most of the Jazz guys are class acts; it just upsets me when you see things like the above.

[dhc#]

Out of curiosity has SR interviewed or hired many from outside of the GTA and Ontario ?

[47north]

If a Jazz pilot is not letting a Sky Regional or Georgian pilot into the jumpseat it is because they are not allowed to. Both these airlines do not have jumpseat agreements with Jazz nor are they authorized to ride in the jumpseat like an AC pilots as per the COM.

But don't let rumors get in the way of facts...

I got no dog in this, but pilot's treating each other like garbage is in my opinion even worse than how our industry treats us.

The thing I don't understand is this. Bob chose to work at Sky Regional. Joe is a Captain at Jazz whom won't let Bob jump seat because he's with Sky Regional. Joe thinks it's because of guys like Bob that he had to vote for a contract out of force.

In a different life, Bob is a Captain at Jazz, and Joe is looking for work. Joe is collecting EI, and get's a job offer from Sky Regional. Joe takes the offer from Sky Regional to feed his family.

Point being, if any of you Jazz pilot's who treat the rest of the CPA carriers like garbage were in their shoes/experience level, and looking for work, you'd be taking the jobs that Sky Regional/GGN/Encore offer as well. Don't be treating someone wrong solely because savy airline managers are building companies off our backs. And if the regional pilot group wouldn't have provided a back for these managers to build a company off of, they would have cutback somewhere else, most likely at the major(s) level. Rouge anyone?

I understand your argument, if Bob doesn't take the job at Sky Regional, Joe wouldn't have voted for a terrible contract. What you're pissed about is human nature. As humans we are always looking for ways to get ahead/improve our life, and a lot of times are forced to make unpopular decisions for a longer term setup of tailwinds and blue skies. And to you bitter Jazz pilot's, I challenge you to a day where you get laid off, are forced to go on EI, and say NO to a SR type job because it will drive the industry down. You wouldn't, and anyone saying they would rather collect EI is most likely a hypocritical coward. Similarly as a human being, a pilot whom has 50k invested into their education will take a job (even if the conditions suck) in order to get ahead. What's he supposed to do? Collect EI for the rest of his life so that you don't have to vote in a contract that you hate today? You'd still have to vote a similar contract in tomorrow for a different reason. To think your regional industry would be protected if the Sky/GGN/Encore drivers' didn't exist is naive thinking. These airline managers know what they're doing, and they're doing it well. They would just cutback something else to make it all work in their little game of "Schemers-Monopoly."

What has happened to regional flying conditions is abysmal, but for heavens sake, don't take it out on each other. If you're going to prevent the SR/GGN guy from jump seating, kick your 34k/yr F/O out of the cockpit as well, because he/she accepted new low wages AFTER you voted in your retirement plan. In your books, the guy accepting conditions at SR is the same type of "scab" like your new hire F/O. So why not treat them the same?

Again, I think most of the Jazz guys are class acts; it just upsets me when you see things like the above.

[loopa]

I was reflecting on what a majority of people were/ have been saying, obviously if it's not true I would retract my statements.

Out of curiosity, why are there restrictions on jump seating when you are all feeding one giant airline? EVAS/GGN/SKY are all doing the same thing. Why the animosity?

[FlyingMonkey]

Anyone know of people getting hired at Sky with less than 2000 hours?

[Oxi]

I was called with less than 2000

[skypirate88]

I was called with less than 2000

How long ago was that and what kind of time did you have?

[PROC_HDG]

If a Jazz pilot is not letting a Sky Regional or Georgian pilot into the jumpseat it is because they are not allowed to. Both these airlines do not have jumpseat agreements with Jazz nor are they authorized to ride in the jumpseat like an AC pilots as per the COM.

But don't let rumors get in the way of facts...

Wrong. Sky pilots are allowed to ride in the jumpseat on Jazz and AC Mainline flights when the back is full, at the discretion of the Captain.

PROC_HDG

[anonymity]

PROC, just had a look at our COM and if Jazz pilots are allowing a SR pilot access to the flight deck, they are in fact violating the COM and CARS. It would be no different then allowing a WJ pilot to occupy the J/S. We have a policy to allow AC pilots and FAs and that is it.

[PROC_HDG]

PROC, just had a look at our COM and if Jazz pilots are allowing a SR pilot access to the flight deck, they are in fact violating the COM and CARS. It would be no different then allowing a WJ pilot to occupy the J/S. We have a policy to allow AC pilots and FAs and that is it.

If this is true, it is a surprise, because our Flight Deck Travel Policy and COM allow Mainline, Rouge and Jazz Pilots and FAs in the jumpseat under the pretext that it is reciprocal. If it is true that there is no mention of this in the Jazz COM, then that is indicative of a more major issue, isn't it?

PROC_HDG

[PositiveRate27]

Does it explicitly say the physical jump seat is shared in the reciprocal agreement, or is that how you interpret it? I can understand Jazz not wanting personnel from a competing airline, which operates the same aircraft, occupying their flight deck. If Sky Regional doesn't feel the same way that's up to them. The jump seat availability on Sky aircraft may very well be intentionally written one way.

[PROC_HDG]

Does it explicitly say the physical jump seat is shared in the reciprocal agreement, or is that how you interpret it? I can understand Jazz not wanting personnel from a competing airline, which operates the same aircraft, occupying their flight deck. If Sky Regional doesn't feel the same way that's up to them. The jump seat availability on Sky aircraft may very well be intentionally written one way.

There is nothing to be interpreted, it is quite clear about occupying the flight deck jumpseat. It doesn't say anything about us being allowed in JZA jumpseats, so perhaps you are right.

Its unfortunate that this is what we've come to - I'm sure management is laughing it up watching us squabble over things like this. This kind of bad blood surely doesn't do anybody any good?

PROC_HDG

[PositiveRate27]

Does it explicitly say the physical jump seat is shared in the reciprocal agreement, or is that how you interpret it? I can understand Jazz not wanting personnel from a competing airline, which operates the same aircraft, occupying their flight deck. If Sky Regional doesn't feel the same way that's up to them. The jump seat availability on Sky aircraft may very well be intentionally written one way.

There is nothing to be interpreted, it is quite clear about occupying the flight deck jumpseat. It doesn't say anything about us being allowed in JZA jumpseats, so perhaps you are right.

Its unfortunate that this is what we've come to - I'm sure management is laughing it up watching us squabble over things like this. This kind of bad blood surely doesn't do anybody any good?

PROC_HDG

Can't argue with that my friend

[rudder]

FD access policy is a function of regulatory compliance and required employment status verification procedures (i.e. guaranteed real-time validity). It has nothing to do with pilots and everything to do with the air carrier itself and whether it is able and willing to implement FD access procedures for OAL pilots.

But don't let that stand in the way of trying to politicize the issue.

[PROC_HDG]

FD access policy is a function of regulatory compliance and required employment status verification procedures (i.e. guaranteed real-time validity). It has nothing to do with pilots and everything to do with the air carrier itself and whether it is able and willing to implement FD access procedures for OAL pilots.

But don't let that stand in the way of trying to politicize the issue.

Well, Sky has gone through the necessary steps for regulatory approval and compliance to allow other AC network employees in the FD Jumpseat, as has AC Mainline. I am assuming Jazz has gone through the necessary steps to allow Mainline employees in the Jumpseat? So without trying to 'politicize' the issue, why is it that Sky is able to do this for Jazz and not the other way around?

PROC_HDG