Lesser Of Two Evils

[Doc]

I think the lowest form of employer is the inability to trust your employees without just cause. You all know my feelings on bonds. Bonds are a form of distrust. But in their defence, there has been some "cause" in the past, on many occasions, and I can see why (although I'm not a fan) they exist.
Not so "random drug and alcohol' testing. This is a sign of distrust, that has no "just cause". It is a blatant and sickening display of distrust. This is telling your employees that they are untrustworthy. Your employees will NOT respect you. I believe this to be bordering on unethical, and perhaps illegal.
If you are looking at flying for two companies, one of which requires you to sign a bond, and the other requires you to submit your body to the personal loss of rights and freedoms that is "random drug and alcohol testing", the choice is an easy one.

SIGN THE BLOODY BOND!!!!!

[trey kule]

When I read the title of this thread , I thought the water cooler had returned and we were going to discuss my ex wives.

To play the devil's advocate Doc.. Random drug testing..It is legal. Part of an employment contract. I have to be a bit careful how I proceed from this point, but let us say, for argument's sake that it does give a company the ability to test employees if they get a complaint from a third party.. Clears it up on the spot. Not really random at all, but it does allow a company to swiftly deal with any accusation, and it is not a matter of trusting your employees..Besides, I think that maybe once or twice over the years, the odd pilot might just have flown a bit tipsy..maybe just a feeling I have
I will admit that I am dead against any impairment from alcohol or drugs, and our company has an absolute zero tolerance policy about it..You have a drug or alcohol problem, come and see us and we will help..You show up half in the bag, and you are down the road. I do not want to ever see anybody hurt or killed because the pilot(s) were self incapacitated.. Or a part was put in wrong because the engineer happened to have had a couple of cocktails at lunch. The days of the wild west are over.

Listening as I sometimes do , it seems that many of the younger generation feel smoking dope is a lifestyle choice and absolutely nothing wrong with it on their time off.. They even seem to know how long it will have any effect on them so they can time it so they are not impaired. Maybe so, but I dont want them flying or working on any of our aircraft.

As I get older and older , I get less tolerant of people making stupid choices that get other people hurt or killed and then thinking it is OK because they feel bad about it..

So, there you go. Something to argue about

[cdnpilot77]

Random drug testing..It is legal. Part of an employment contract

Not entirely correct. It is not legal and against the charter of human rights and freedoms to add it to an employment contract without "just cause". There is some grey and vague language that discusses "safety sensitive positions". There are a couple of supreme court decisions in the works currently (Suncor and Irving) that will determine the validity of that language.

[Brown Bear]

I think it's the "just cause" clause that has Doc upset? I'm almost sure that WITH just cause, even he would be in favour? But then it wouldn't be random.

[captcrunch2013]

It's a tough call.
I used to be involved in drug testing
and the reality is in say the community that smokes,
there is around a 75% ratio who smoke pot.

If you are allowed to drink 8 hours before, then a time period
before flying after smoking pot would probably be an adequate safety factor.

In remote locations, boredom sets in, pot and drinks are common place.

Companies who have drug testing don't necessarily want to,
often its only for insurance or show purposes.

Training Bonds is another subject.

[Doc]

Some sensitive contracts (oil patch work etc.) require it. Otherwise, it's an invasion of privacy. Pure and simple. The same people that want pilots to submit to this, are probably doing lines of coke in their 7 Series BMWs on the way to work, and "chasing the dragon" all weekend. I have NO use for these people.

[Rowdy]

While I dont agree with companies doing 'random drug testing'.. because it is NEVER random. BUT I do feel that in this professional environment, that at our yearly medicals we should be tested. I dont care what you say, or what youre feeling or lifestyle choice is, that shit doesnt fly with me. Theres a reason it's ILLEGAL. Plain and simple.

Smoke a ton of dope on your two days off? Fired. Get fall down drunk and show up shit tanked or massively hungover the next day? Fired. Do a line of coke on the weekend? Fired. Plain and simple.

Sure there are addicts out there and so long as they handle themselves appropriatly and dont get into an aircraft imparied in ANY WHICH WAY SHAPE OR FORM, we provide them with help, so that in the future, they dont get into an aircraft impaired.

Simple no?

[North Shore]

Don't forget speeding, not coming to a complete stop prior to the white line, and not returning the overage in the change (theft?) from your cup of Timmies on your way to work, Rowdy. All of those are illegal also - are you going to fire people for those offences, too? Why not? They are instances where judgement is applied, and our occupation is all about judgement, isn't it?

When the company pays us 24/7, then they can dictate what we do 24/7. Until then, as long as we show up clean, sober (well rested?? I'd be willing to bet that almost every pilot has shown up to work at one point or another without having their full 8 hours...) and ready to go, then it's none of their business what we do on our time off..

Edited to add: Just to make it clear, apart from the odd Gin or three after the sun's gone down, I don't smoke/shoot/snort etc.. I do, however, feel very aggrieved that people might make the assumption that I do because of the job that I do. If we are going to start randomly testing pilots, then why not bus drivers, Doctors, nurses, (hell, why not interlocks on all motor vehicles?) lifeguards, power station operators etc.. the list of occupations that could be hazardous to the public is almost endless..

[trey kule]

Just to be clear as well, I was not suggesting whatsoever that anyone tell people what to do on their days off.

I was referring to people showing up for work to do a job and who maybe under the influence of alcohol or a drug.

Which brings me to ask you NS, how does your company handle it if someone shows up to fly and the company gets a call that they seem to be impaired? I am genuinely interested and interested in more than just the immediate reaction.
Does your company have a formal policy or a procedure for that situation?
If someone does show up and is impaired how does you company deal with them in terms of counselling, discipline, etc..
How do you even determine if they are impaired..
If they are not terminated, how many times do you allow them to show up impaired?
One of the things with only having worked with a few companies is I dont really know what other companies do..I just assumed that everyone would see the inherent danger in letting someone impaired climb into a plane.

And to be absolutely clear, I am not talking about someone who declares they have a problem. That is a completely different issue in my mind (a medical one). I am talking about someone who has shown up to work with self diminished ability to do the job.

It is well known that two pilots sitting in a cockpit for a few hours can solve every possible management problem a company has..

[xsbank]

Any time or any place, at work, you can be drug tested in the US. I'm in favor of it. There is no place for it in our profession. Having said that, snort, shoot, smoke whatever you want, just give up your licenses. I am actually in favor of legalizing ALL drugs, just not for pilots. Sorry.

[pelmet]

The company I work for has randon alcohol and drug tests for pilots and F/A's. If you are worried, you are allowed to call in sick and even give the reason(for alcohol anyways) with no consequences. Apparently five people have been fired for failing it. That tells me that some of the employees are untrustworthy. Therefore, we all pay the price for these untrustworthy people. I believe we read about them once a year on average but no doubt there are a lot more. Real world.

Privacy does not trump the public's right to safety. I suppose those who may have abused the rules might be worried. I'm not.

[Rowdy]

NS, I'm not saying this as a judgement of all things illegal, like you were quick to point out. But that, these drugs (all of them, even the legal one) can cause serious impacts on those that operate aircraft, some even days or weeks later, with changes in temperature, pressure, body chemistry etc. THAT is why they should not be utilized by those that are having the lives of others directly entrusted in their hands. Plain and simple... if you want to be at the helm, you had damn well better not be partaking, and we as an industry should be setting the standard for all of those other proffesions we are so quick to compare for wages and treatment.

100% in agreeance with you XS..

[Lost Lake]

NS, I'm not saying this as a judgement of all things illegal, like you were quick to point out. But that, these drugs (all of them, even the legal one) can cause serious impacts on those that operate aircraft, some even days or weeks later, with changes in temperature, pressure, body chemistry etc. THAT is why they should not be utilized by those that are having the lives of others directly entrusted in their hands. Plain and simple... if you want to be at the helm, you had damn well better not be partaking, and we as an industry should be setting the standard for all of those other proffesions we are so quick to compare for wages and treatment.

100% in agreeance with you XS..

Wow Rowdy, are you implying that if I have a few, or even a bunch of drinks one night, it is going to influence me weeks later?
Are you sure you weren't smoking something when you wrote this.

Way to shit disturb again Doc. I love it

[Rowdy]

Wow Rowdy, are you implying that if I have a few, or even a bunch of drinks one night, it is going to influence me weeks later?
Are you sure you weren't smoking something when you wrote this.

:

Lost, you gotta be lost my friend.. I was referring to the other, illegal and not regulated party favours

HOWEVER, it does state in the CARs that you must be free from the affects of alcohol. As in, Not hungover either. Right ?

[B-rad]

Rowdy, If laws changed and it became legal would your stance on the matter change? It seams it becoming a lot more acceptable amongst the general public and some politicians are starting to talk about being in favour of legalizing it.
On a side note, what if someone who's reeeeally good and flying is hungover to the point their ability is still above average and safe compared to some less then competent Pilots who maybe shouldn't even have a licence in the first place...how about then? have we reached a grey area yet??

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

What the real issue here is how do companies deal with this situation should it arise. All this gobbleygook about legalization, grey areas misses the point. We are talking about pilots who show up to fly a plane who may be impaired.. Hung over is only grey in that it shows a remarkable inability of a pilot to assess their own fitness. Same with impairment.

How about all you cockpit consultant management suggesting something concrete about how a company should deal with this. Impaired flight crew is a serious issue and one a little bit above debate as to what if a superior pilot just becomes average...

What I hear some of you advocating is this is just fine..Drunk and stoned pilots are a menace to themselves and to everyone they work with if they are impaired when they show up to work.

If I am coming across as a wild heretic it is because I have had to deal with this situation, and it is not pretty..It is absolutely no fun at all to fire someone. Having to fire a good pilot and a friend for one stupid mistake is heart breaking, but it is necessary to make certain all the lifestyle choice group gets the message.

[trey kule]

posted twice for emphais

[xsbank]

Way to run up your post count!
2 ways to look at someone who turns up impaired: they are incredibly stupid as they know better and they knew they were supposed to be rested for duty. Usually this has an operational impact as all the pilots are usually spoken for, if the company is crewed tightly there will likely not be anyone to cover for our hero. He has proven himself to be too immature to take control of my aircraft and my passengers and he's fired.
The other way is somebody who has a problem - he has a medical issue and needs to be supervised, if he cannot go home at night and stay sober for duty and you have a large enough company with benefits he must go on sick leave. If you have a small company, you either have to watch him like a hawk or let him go. I have known 3 alcoholic pilots in my time, one reformed and retired numerous times with grace; another used to keep a bottle under his seat and only drink enroute - don't know his fate, but the third is dead - he crashed a large turboprop and killed his copilot too.
My father was a drunk, a war casualty, who used to drive home from the Legion and park his car in the hedge or the ditch - I have zero tolerance for abusing your trust.

[Rowdy]

Rowdy, If laws changed and it became legal would your stance on the matter change? It seams it becoming a lot more acceptable amongst the general public and some politicians are starting to talk about being in favour of legalizing it.
On a side note, what if someone who's reeeeally good and flying is hungover to the point their ability is still above average and safe compared to some less then competent Pilots who maybe shouldn't even have a licence in the first place...how about then? have we reached a grey area yet??

Smoking pot is more acceptable now than it ever was and in some ways has been de-criminalized, however, it is still illegal, unrestricted, largely untested and unlike the legal drug (alcohol) not at all regulated. If you are stoned, you are impaired. Its very simple. Until the day comes that there are UNBIASED studies done, levels set, impairment guidelines put in place and the product is regulated so that there is a baseline, this discussion on it is moot. It's still illegal and impairment in this environment is still criminal.

Regardless of skill level/expertise, it affects motor skills. So it may not kill that ace pilot on that routine flight to nerds point today, but what happens when the cojoe is green, a gen is misbehaving, the weather is down, the plane is loaded at or above gross and you have to do a go-around during the non precision approach? You're telling me that the ace pilot who is still under the influence isn't going to F8ck up? How can you be so sure? Sober aces, both men and women have screwed the pooch in many of those circumstances.

Like all of the other regs in aviation, there is a standard set for the 'average' pilot/person. That bar is already set, regardless of skill, body size etc, if you're impaired, you're toast. I dont see why there is a point in arguing.

[cdnpilot77]

posted twice for emphais

What about posts 3 through 6?