low time guy with a bit extra

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photofly
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by photofly »

I guess you could say it's intellectually easy. Unimaginitive. A case of working harder instead of working smarter.
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Nwtflier
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Nwtflier »

Spending $10k to get a job where you make $35k doesn't sound like working smarter to me, but I see what you're getting at. However rampies don't just move cargo from position A to position B, there usually is some thinking and planning involved regarding airplanes. Where to park them, how to park them, when to pull certain planes out of the hangar and put others in so you don't blow through all your profit in hangar door openings, when to deice, what kind of deicing agent to use etc etc.

I'm not saying it's rocket surgery, but being a rampie is not as easy as people think. I can say with 100% certainty that it takes more brain power to work the ramp than to travel to Toronto and walk into flight safety.
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N1 Green
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by N1 Green »

Nwtflier wrote: Yaaaaaaaa, easy way. That's exactly how I would describe being a rampie. Care to explain how working for 2 years on the ramp(or anywhere)is easy as opposed to buying a type rating?
It's the safeway my friend, and you know that.

all you have to do is work hard and wait for your name to get to the top of the list.
like i mentioned before; we are not dealing with 2 or 3 companies that does that, if that was the case this post is not relevant.
we are talking about a way of life in Canadian aviation, we are talking about 20+ companies that hire people to save $$. and that's wrong.


Nwtflier wrote: I mean I know sometimes the A/C doesn't work in the sim, but do you have any other examples?
Heck I'll even accept ONE example. :roll:
what example ?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

There are no, nil, nada jobs in Canada for a 200 hr CPL with a self bought type rating on any 705 class aircraft or jet powered corporate aircraft. Any wannabe cpl who buys a Dash 8. 737, Learjet etc etc type rating is a fool.

There are guys/gals going into the right seat of 703/704 T props with 200 hrs but I would say virtually all of them already have a connection to the company because they work the ramp or dispatch. Almost all of them will unfortunately end up buying their first type rating either directly or indirectly.

Finally showing up with a shiny type rating still means the company has to give you a PPC. Good companies won't ask for money up front as they will absorb the upfront cost of the PPC. So ask yourself before the company commits to the training would they more likely invest in

1) Somebody who already has a couple of hundred paid hours working in a commercial pilot

2) A known quantity who is already working the ramp/dispatch

3) Somebody with no industry experience, a bare TR with no line experience and who is a complete unknown

Chances are they will always be more guys and gals in category 1 and 2 then available jobs so nobody is going to look at category 3 folks

Finally the crap outfits look at training as a profit center. They want you to pay them for all your training so why on earth would they hire someone who already has a TR, or in other words someone who paid somebody else for their training.

If you are a brand new CPL buying a TR is a very bad idea
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N1 Green
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by N1 Green »

Nwtflier wrote:move cargo from position A to position B, there usually is some thinking and planning involved regarding airplanes. Where to park them, how to park them, when to pull certain planes out of the hangar and put others in so you don't blow through all your profit in hangar door openings, when to deice, what kind of deicing agent to use etc etc.
Agree. but that should take 3 weeks to learn. not 3 years.
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Nwtflier
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Nwtflier »

It's the safeway my friend
But see it's not the safe way.

I mean sure, if you are the perfect employee, never late, always happy and never make mistakes then sure, it's the safeway. But for the most of us your time on the ramp is a little nerve racking, you're working around some EXPENSIVE pieces of equipment, freezing your nuts off in the winter, surrounded by some seriously experienced folk who see your every move and see how you react to a little bit of adversity and did I mention the winter?

On the contrary, swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter is the safeway, no?
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N1 Green
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by N1 Green »

Nwtflier wrote: But see it's not the safe way.

I mean sure, if you are the perfect employee, never late, always happy and never make mistakes then sure, it's the safeway. But for the most of us your time on the ramp is a little nerve racking, you're working around some EXPENSIVE pieces of equipment, freezing your nuts off in the winter, surrounded by some seriously experienced folk who see your every move and see how you react to a little bit of adversity and did I mention the winter?

On the contrary, swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter is the safeway, no?
I think that by putting the word "easy" in my last post i caused a minor earthquake here ;)

I will better explain myself;

I was a partner in a 703 concept operation in the Netherlands before I moved to Canada.
we had a nice Astra.
the idea is not to stop your training at CPL/MIFR. go get your MCC training. maybe put down some cash 25,000$ and fly some MIFR PIC.
what's the cost of a multi engine time , 250-300 an hour? , for 25000 you'll get about 100 hours?

So now, you are a CPL guy with MIFR , about 350 total time. 130 Multi and out of the 130 - you got 100 MIFR PIC (don't just fly to the practice area, buy some oxy and go FL above wx down to the States) plus you got your MCC training done. and write down your IATRA.
I would feel much more comfortable to put you on the right seat of a king air.

see , it's not about buyin your C560 type. it's about getting yourself as close as you can to the concept you want to work with.

If your dream is to fly bush, go work the ramp and get your float. you want to fly 703, dive into G530 and get some MIFR PIC..

if you are a flight ins, with 1200 tt and 300multi with some extra cash, go get your C560 type.

that's my point.


and if you are still looking to hear my opinion about the ramp - see my post on page 2 about hiring the right person.
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Krimson
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Krimson »

Nwtflier wrote:swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter
What about the time taken to pay that visa bill? That is the hard work. You are out there busting your balls to be able to afford swiping that card. That is working smarter. I would rather take a job paying 2-3x as much as working on a ramp just to be close to airplanes. Get some connections, learn a thing or two how business works and be able to prove my value to a chief pilot. Once an agreement is made, I would return with a type rating paid out of my own pocket and bypass "freezing my nuts off in the winter".

There is a story above about a gentleman who started his own construction company to be able to pay for a type rating. You cannot possibly say pushing a few airplanes around on a ramp is more work than that.

It is very true however, to buy a type rating with 200 hours and no job guarantee is a very bad move. Talk to operators before you are about to put anything out of your pocket. Manage the risk!
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Nwtflier
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Nwtflier »

That's a good point Krimson and I agree that starting your own construction company or any company for that matter is a heck of a lot harder and way more of a risk than being a rampie. But I don't really think this is a normal circumstance, could be wrong though. Just throwing ideas out there, but once that gentleman gets his TR what's his plan with his business? There's not many aviation/owning your own business options that I can think of that allow you to still run a profitable company, especially not a new company. I just think that the ramp is good for a new pilot, teach you some stuff, hang around other pilots, see what is actually involved in running an airline on a daily basis besides showing up and flying.

On the winter thing, if you run a construction business, you WILL be freezing your nuts off. :wink:
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notpaying
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by notpaying »

Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?
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Last edited by notpaying on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by N1 Green »

notpaying wrote:I
N1 Green you are European and so is the OP ocud. Why Am I not surprized that you both support this concept? Because that's how things work in Europe. Word of advice. WE ARE IN CANADA here. We see things NOT THE SAME as you"guys". Get over it. .
My son just finished his 3rd year in UoC (Calgary) , he was born in Canada. do the math young man.

I am here to give you different angle of view.


notpaying wrote:I love it how Krimson and N1 Green avoid answering this question...! Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up? .

Because you are a pilot with SELF respect. Can you get a job today paying 50-60 a year that is not related to Aviation ?

I am sure you can. Go DO IT. Don’t let Joey Boey from NWT pay you 9.23 an hour. He should pay 17.29 an hour to a qualified guy that is dedicated to the ramp and he KNOWS THAT.

Read my previous posts and you will understand what a civilized ways of learning means.


You are right, we are in Canada. but do me a favor please – right click on windows clock in the bottom or the top, it should show you the date. It’s 2013 my friend, Not 1973.

Are we on the same page now ?
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Last edited by N1 Green on Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by N1 Green »

found one!

http://www.cargair.com/en/crm-mcc
http://www.cargair.com/en/beechcraft-king-air

Made in Canada, only for you "notpaying " ;)

PPL/CPL/MIFR/MCC/100 MULTI IFR PIC/IATRA/BE10 TRAINING.

HOW MUCH? - 70,000? 80,000?

work for 3 years and pay it yourself. you are a pilot.

too many hours of AVCANADA blue screen,I think I am done for today.. good night!
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notpaying
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by notpaying »

N1 Green wrote:found one!

http://www.cargair.com/en/crm-mcc
http://www.cargair.com/en/beechcraft-king-air

Made in Canada, only for you "notpaying " ;)

PPL/CPL/MIFR/MCC/100 MULTI IFR PIC/IATRA/BE10 TRAINING.

HOW MUCH? - 70,000? 80,000?

work for 3 years and pay it yourself. you are a pilot.

too many hours of AVCANADA blue screen,I think I am done for today.. good night!

With all due respect N1' I don't think we will ever be on the same page when it comes to this debate. One thing I am pretty sure we can agree on is that Europe does have amazing beer and women. Good night yourself.
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Krimson
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Krimson »

notpaying, you seem to have a very closed mind on this subject. That is your choice, but people who are open to explore every opportunity available with the right mind have the potential to achieve their goal before someone who wants to stick on the ramp to "earn" their way up.

I believe your question has been answered multiple times.
"Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?"

Pay for a TR because you do not want the 200 hour jobs. If my goal was to open a restaurant, I wouldn't start by flipping burgers, I would raise the capital to open up my own restaurant. It would not be earning my way up as a fry cook. Same as a TR, raise the capital to qualify for the career you want.
Why do you think it should be a prerequisite to a successful career by doing something you don't want to do? If you do not want to instruct, leave civilization, or endanger your life sent out alone doing a 702 job you're barely trained for; then don't! There are options is what people are trying to show here. To not consider all your options and shun everyone who has not chosen the same as you is not the way to go.

Nwtflier, the guy starting his own company would be a special circumstance, however there are many different ways to raise money was my point. There are many entry level jobs which pay a lot more than a ramp position with a dangling carrot. It may seem appealing, but going the same direction as everyone else will not allow you to stand out and catch your break. You got to fight for it.
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homesick
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by homesick »

notpaying wrote:
homesick wrote:I'd rather pay a certain amount for that opportunity than pay with the most precious thing I have, time. I couldn't stomach ramping it for 2-3 years on poverty level wages. So opted to do the next worse thing, got myself bonded for a 737 TR.
I don't understand quite exactly. You got yourself bonded or you paid for it ? THat's two different things. Did you even take any steps to find a flying job once you finished school ? Or you simply said, I don't wanna ramp and walked into a TR training institution?

I am asking this because I have the feeling that some fellow aviators might have simply assumed that there are no flying jobs, did not want to ramp and consequently walked into a TR training facility. That is a huge problem. There was tremendous movement in Canadian Aviation during the past year and it might have slowed down slightly, however one CAN secure a flying job with a fresh CPL and without paying for any training. As I have mentioned it in a previous post on the same subject, there are entry level jobs with 200 hours out there... are you ready to move away and take the necessary steps to secure them ?
Haven't paid a dime, yet. Although being bonded wasn't a great option either, but the best option out of all three. And I did move away. Had to leave Canada. Is that far enough of a move?
Tremendous movement in the past year- you are taking solace in some meager growth over 12 months? Is that the certainty that exists in Canadian aviation now? I know that aviation,concurrent with the global economy, is viciously cyclical. But 12 months of 'movement' does not bode well for a long term sustainable career.
You seem to discount the time cost you can potentially end up wasting by not grabbing an opportunity when it arises. I have gotten jet time 3 years earlier than I would have ramping. I have gotten 2000 hours more jet PIC three years earlier than ramping. And been, thankfully, paid adequately for my services. So for me it was a no brainer. And I DID do the road trips, more than once. Got the usual PFO's in their various forms.
Again, there are different ways to achieve your career goals. I applaud the guys who ramped it and genuinely envy the folks who have done some tough and fun bush flying in some of the most challenging and beautiful environments on earth. Folks have taken the military route to get that initial experience. Some have outright paid for their training.
I have also met guys who have gotten their licenses and just given up because of a lack of viable opportunities in aviation. While they miss the flying they are thriving in their chosen fields.
Who is to say which is the right logical path to your eventual goal? Certainly not me.
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Diadem
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Diadem »

photofly wrote:The obvious answer is "because he's got more money than they have."

Almost everything in this world has very little to do with merit, very little to do with fairness, and everything to do with who you know, and how much money you (or your parents) have.

Rich people get to drive faster cars and live in bigger houses too. Is that fair?
But we're not talking about general inequalities in life, we're talking about how management treats their employees. Would anyone on here honestly want to work for a company that doesn't treat its workers equitably? That's ridiculous. If an owner hired someone from outside the company to take a job towards which you had been working for years, and when you raised the issue the response was "Tough shit; life's not fair", would you keep working there? Of course not. Life may not be fair, but employment should be.
Imagine an IT professional who has no qualifications, but has worked hard for several years to move up from an entry-level position dealing with idiot customers and working long hours, to being on the verge of a promotion to a management position. Along comes some rich kid with a degree in computer science, but no actual experience in the industry. If the guy with the degree gets the job, is there anyone here who would argue that this treatment is appropriate or that the employee should remain with the company? What if the rich kid gets the job because his parents support him and he offers to work for a lower wage, which would save the company a few bucks?
Krimson wrote:Diadem, my intent is not to be rude, but your whole post sounds like whining to me. "Why does the rich guy get everything, but not me?"

In no part of the world is it fair. Those who work more, in one way or another, reap the rewards. Because you choose the easy and "conventional" route to put your name at the bottom of a list and wait, why do you feel this sense of entitlement to any position? If someone else comes along who shows he has more value than you to be put in the plane right away, of course I would choose him first. Keep you in your dispatch position; you do have experience for that now which is better than putting you in a plane.

All the talk of this "rich-boy" getting everything and how you are the victim is sad. You cannot blame other people's parents for your misfortunes. A lot of people worked their asses off to be able to afford a TR, went to school for another trade, went out to make the contacts, etc. For you to look down on people who have worked so hard to be able to afford a life they want while you sit and wait for a job is not right at all.

If you limit yourself to the options between McDonalds or working on a ramp, maybe you shouldn't be flying an airplane.

Laziness on pilot's parts is why we have the ramp system we have today.
For the first part, see above; if it sounds like whining it's because I'm sick of my hard work meaning nothing compared to people who've inherited their wealth and have done nothing to earn their success except breath. For the second, read every goddamn word I've posted in this thread: I didn't work on the ramp because it was "easy" or "conventional", I did it because I had no other goddamn option. When I was on the ramp there were pilots hired over me, but that was because they had significantly more hours and time on type; if another 200-hour-wonder had swaggered in with a type rating and gotten the job at my expense, I would have walked away immediately. I don't want to work for a company that values a tiny cost savings on training over employees and the time they've invested in said company.
I didn't "sit and wait for a job", I busted my ass trying to find any employment I could, and when I did I worked two jobs, 70 hours a week, without a day off for months at a time, doing manual labour in miserable weather conditions. I didn't do it because I wanted to and I goddamn well didn't do it because I was limiting my options to McDonald's and working the ramp; I tried to get absolutely any f**king job I could, and there was nothing available that didn't require education or previous work experience in the field. There were literally no other jobs available to me, and if I wanted to put food in my mouth I had to work the ramp, or work fast food. After spending tens of thousands of dollars on my licences and rating it didn't really seem like a good investment not to do everything I could to find a job that would, if not get me flying, at the very least lead up to a flying position. If I had the money, I would absolutely have purchased a type rating and gone to fly a jet overseas, but only in places where there aren't guys already working towards flying positions; I would never, ever take a spot from someone who had been working towards it for years because they weren't lucky enough to be born into the right family. Now, if you think I'm lazy because I only worked 70 hours a week doing manual labour then you can shove it up your pompous ass. I won't stand for your prevaricating and deprecating my hard work because I did what I had to do to pay my bills. We're not all special little flowers with money to burn.
N1 Green wrote:Because you are a pilot with SELF respect. Can you get a job today paying 50-60 a year that is not related to Aviation ?
No. I tried. Not all of us have the skills necessary to get jobs that pay well, even without formal education. I was never taught to fix cars, build houses, or write code. I have no practical abilities aside from flying, which leaves me with options that include handling cargo, flipping burgers, and mowing lawns. I applied for every single job for which I was qualified when I was looking for work, and the only job that was offered to me besides working the ramp was driving an ice cream truck. The ramp was the best option for me.
N1 Green wrote:If you managed to get your MIFR/CPL without any help from your parents , I am sure you are talented enough to find a good paying job better than Mcdonalds.
The point is that you dont want to work hard. you prefer to go the EASY way. work the ramp for 2 years and just WAIT for your turn - which I can understand in some point.
No, I wasn't "talented" enough to find a job that pays better than McDonald's, except working the ramp. Why is this so hard to understand? Some people don't have the luxury of waiting around until a better-paying job comes along. Oh, how I wish I could have taken six months or a year off and waited for a job that took me directly into a cockpit, instead of whoring myself out, as so many put it, but I wasn't that lucky. I took what I could, and I didn't have any other option. It's as simple as that: I didn't want to starve or freeze to death, and I didn't have the family money to take a stand on principle. I didn't take the "EASY" way, and if you think what I did was easy then you're a sheltered little ignoramus; the easy way is taking a few weeks to travel across the continent and sit in a nice warm sim, all on daddy's dime. I didn't just sit back and "WAIT", I was earning grocery money.
Most flying jobs in Canada aren't just straight flying; most involve some type of ramp work, whether it's loading, towing, or fuelling, and if it's okay to do that as a pilot why is it not okay to do that while waiting for a job as a pilot to open up? What would happen if a spoiled little rich kid who'd never worked a day in his life showed up with a fresh type rating on a King Air and got a job in the NWT, only to discover that lifting tow bars is hard work and moving freight gives him blisters? Would you have a problem with him using his daddy's money to hire someone else to do his ramp work for him, while the guys who actually have to work to make a living bust ass to get the job done? Would you have an issue with the rich kid offering to work for free because his parents will support him? Would you have an issue with the rich kid literally paying the CP to get the job? Does no one actually value hard work anymore?
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Positiveclimb
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by Positiveclimb »

From my understanding very few operators in Canada do ask you to buy your type rating up front (TransCapital being one of them for the Dash 7). Type ratings are an asset but usually aren't necessary here to gain employment, most of the time its networking and luck. I don't know why people are so disgruntle, paying your way out usually doesn't work here.

There are people with over 1,500 hours that are not moving up from instructing or the bush. There comes a point where you have to decide what move you have to take if you feel that paying for your type and going abroad is for you, go for it, just keep in mind without the line experience you are still going to find it extremely difficult to find work, you are however more marketable in Asia than a pilot without a type rating.

The notion that 200 hour pilots can't fly a transport category aircraft is false, there are so many pilots who have done well on the line , the decision making comes with experience but I have seen good CRM, hard work and willingness to learn from many of the cadets and low hour pilots that come to work. There are those cadets that struggle but I have seen people with full ATPLs fail the initial course, attitude is key.
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airspeed250
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by airspeed250 »

notpaying wrote:Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?
I know guys with degrees (one in engineering w/ work experience), mature, great personalities, smart. They have held great non aviation careers previously. They know how to network and have "basic HR" skills. They have made MULTIPLE road trips. Keep in contact with CP's. And no job offers. You make it sound relatively easy that any one can just show "simple competence" and land a position with 200 hrs. Yes, SOME guys get lucky with that amount of time and it probably has more to do with being at the right place at the right time. But there are way more 200 hr pilots than positions for them, flying or ramp combined. Even getting a ramp job at a good company is a struggle. Go ask how Perimeter how many resumes and office visits they get for ramp. Stop making it seem like guys that want to advance their career, after doing two trips around this country are somehow lazy because, IF, it would mean a job, they would gladly buy a TR. If it is so easy, I wouldn't have friends who have given up on flying altogether after doing road trips and phone calls, office visits, applying for the ramp, and getting no where and simply running out of money and time.
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notpaying
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by notpaying »

airspeed250 wrote:
notpaying wrote:Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?
I know guys with degrees (one in engineering w/ work experience), mature, great personalities, smart. They have held great non aviation careers previously. They know how to network and have "basic HR" skills. They have made MULTIPLE road trips. Keep in contact with CP's. And no job offers. You make it sound relatively easy that any one can just show "simple competence" and land a position with 200 hrs. Yes, SOME guys get lucky with that amount of time and it probably has more to do with being at the right place at the right time. But there are way more 200 hr pilots than positions for them, flying or ramp combined. Even getting a ramp job at a good company is a struggle. Go ask how Perimeter how many resumes and office visits they get for ramp. Stop making it seem like guys that want to advance their career, after doing two trips around this country are somehow lazy because, IF, it would mean a job, they would gladly buy a TR. If it is so easy, I wouldn't have friends who have given up on flying altogether after doing road trips and phone calls, office visits, applying for the ramp, and getting no where and simply running out of money and time.
Seizing that first job is about being motivated, perspicacious, ambitious and not giving up. Multiple road trips to where if I might ask and how unlimited were these road trips? When I started out, I applied just about everywhere in the world where my Canadian license would be recognized. YES, everywhere. There are jobs out there, it all depends on how much of your comfort you're willing to sacrifice. So apply everywhere, not just the companies in your 250 km radius surrounding your homes, expand your horizons, take aviation for the journey and adventure that it actually is and you shall succeed.
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Last edited by notpaying on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: low time guy with a bit extra

Post by cdnpilot77 »

NotPaying,

Although I share most of your thoughts on this subject, there is one thing I feel I need to point out. You did not pay for a Type rating and that is commendable. But, I recall some months ago you coming on avcanada and telling us how you got a job the ethical way but that you could not make ends meet on the less than meager salary you were earning and essentially looking for a side job to be able to live. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that is my recollection. I didn't go through your old posts for confirmation. At the risk of contradicting myself in previous posts, this to me is one in the same as buying your TR. You supplemented your training, same difference. He who protest too much....

Maybe give this one a rest. There are those who think it's ok and those who don't, you will not change their minds and they will not change yours. Know when to hold them, know when to fold them...at least on this thread.


Edited to make it make sense
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