These guys find pilots, HOW?
Number ONE on my "Avoid Like The Plague" list. Totally disgusting!
Please tell me this is your version of a sick joke, if this is true then shame on you North Wright but even more so to all the pilots who think they can call that a "job" did you get into aviation to make a living or am I missing something here?Brown Bear wrote:The company takes 250$ a month off a pilot's pay cheque for four years, plus, make that PLUS, a fifteen THOUSAND dollar bond for any new PPC, even if a pilot already works there
round pounder wrote:Please do not get me wrong, the amount of sheeite disturbors out here is amazing, hell its avcanada, if this is true then wow shame on north wright, but have to ask where this data is coming from? Pilots are the most narcasistic folks out there, come on boys and girls, bitch and squawk all you want it is what it is, you knife each other in the back daily, hourly by the minute to get an hour in the all too precious log book in order to further yourself into a widebody, then it starts all over again. So if your up in the wells eating ketchup soup and noodles working for someone willing to rape you, you have no one to blame but yourself and are assisting the demise of this career even further. Just so you know when a resume crosses my desk with words like I work for free, I will pay for my PPC those resumes get placed on the company bulletin board for all to have some great shits and giggles. Aviation is a small community even for a country as vast as ours, your name will get around its inevitable. Someones getting a happy ending and I bets its not the scab up north working for free. flysafe and dont fly for free
So, you'd be a willing participant in a deal like this then?shimmydampner wrote:Oh no! They're going to be devastated!Number ONE on my "Avoid Like The Plague" list.
Wow, well said, I could not agree more. While not all pilots are narcissistic to the point that it becomes a negative personalityround pounder wrote: Pilots are the most narcasistic folks out there,
trait, it sure shows up in the moderation of this forum.
I recall rejecting every single offer that required a training bond and never had a problem getting a job.
Then we have those overseas pilots with buckets of cash to buy their own 737 rating with 200 hours
on a CPL and land a paid for job in Indonesia. They provide their financials and the employment interview
is done on skype.
I also recall spending thousands getting a range of type ratings to improve job prospects and never once did
it ever result in getting a job.
Round pounder,round pounder wrote:Pilots are the most narcasistic folks out there, come on boys and girls, bitch and squawk all you want it is what it is, you knife each other in the back daily, hourly by the minute to get an hour in the all too precious log book in order to further yourself into a widebody, then it starts all over again.
It is entirely possible that maybe the hardest pill to swallow is that this is seemingly a new policy sprung upon the pilots that have been there and put in their time under circumstances that were deemed acceptable, to them (an entirely different debate)! It is not an insignificant change in policy, if confirmed, and I hope the pilots will tell them where to shove that piece of paper.
For you legal beagles out there, if they already have a contract whereby the employer will deduct $250/month for 4 years as a training agreement, is the company legally able to hold the pilots with a second and entirely separate training agreement? Wouldnt this be construed as a new contract with the company, voiding the first? Would that one even be enforceable if the first one is still being enacted by the company; ie: still deducting the $250/month from the paycheque?
So, you could work for them for three years and eleven months, and the $11,750 they withheld from money that you EARNED could be pocketed by these bandits?DanWEC wrote:I can't comment on the additional bond for the PPC, but when I was sent an offer a while ago the 250 per paycheque is held as a "bonus" that you get back at the end of 4 years. If you leave a day early it's all kaptuz. They sounded like nice guys on the phone but it was an offer I just couldn't bring myself to accept, even as a 200 hr pilot in desperate need of a first job. I couldn't believe I was turning down a job, and who knows what experiences I would have had by now, but in retrospect, I'm glad I made the choice I did!
I can see working conditions taking a company induced dive when there's that kind of cash in it for them!
I have ZERO respect for anyone who would put themselves in this position. Are you all brain dead?
P.s. $4000 + .10 per mile adds up doing 30000 miles per month
Life is too short to waste your 20s away in the north especially when you'll get nothing but war stories to show for all your hard work. Chase money and women, not airplanes! There's obviously very little light at the end of aviation tunnel these days. Tread carefully, and save as much as you can in your 20s.
No, and I'm sure they don't care.Brown Bear wrote:So, you'd be a willing participant in a deal like this then?shimmydampner wrote:Oh no! They're going to be devastated!Number ONE on my "Avoid Like The Plague" list.
I did close to 4 years of Medevac flying and at the end of it I was so burnt out my health kicked the bucket. I was grounded for close to 4 months with my medical condition(coincidence? who knows..). I'm not even 30 years old. Things happen that you can't plan for.
Since the pay off in Canadian aviation is so far down the road, my advice is to save while young, and find the outfits that do actually pay well so that way you'll be in a better position to take the existing low paying 705 gigs(if that's your dream). Otherwise, if you'd like to live a life of stress and debt fly for free, bust bonds, never upgrade, pay for type ratings, and fast track your way to the top of the invisible pyramid!
problem is, how do you save when you are young in this industry? It seems like 35-50k is the new norm. That's if you can get a job that pays 35k after 60k of training debt, and maybe a few years instructing which probably digs the hole even deeper.Morav wrote:my advice is to save while young
Of the 28 pilots that left during my time working for NWA only 1 left for an AC interview and as for the check it is no way like receiving a bonus, you've had to work for that money. You will most likely dump that money onto your credit card bills or student loans you haven't had the slightest chance for repaying. It is virtually impossible to eat and have any sort of social life(if you could call it that in the Well) and save any cash while you are taking home $968.70 every MONTH!!! (pay day is every 1st of the month). Oh and the small amount you do save you'll blow buying approach plates, paying for your medical, seeing the dentist, etc. as you'll have zerooo benefits.leftoftrack wrote:Except the guys who come out of school and after six months are flying a 206 a year later are on a caravan a year after that are co joe on a 99 and 1 more summer become multi turbine captains with 3000 Hrs and a 10 000 check on their way to an AC interview. Your right they do suck and are bringing the industry wages down.
P.s. $4000 + .10 per mile adds up doing 30000 miles per month
Last I checked, you were on the ramp, in the office and generally being a grunt for at least a year before flying. Sure there is progression… but only those desperate to keep people around would deduct pay while on the ramp and then ding you with a flying bond.
Let's not forget that money shouldn't be the only consideration here. A person's time and the experience they gain is a valuable thing as well. It seems to me that when a person is done their 4 year tenure at NW, they are coming out of it with a very solid base of experience, a good chunk of PIC time, and a PPC on some pretty relevant machines. Contrast that to a more "fortunate" soul who likely spent 2 years on the ramp and is likely in their second year of right seat duties with a ways to go before they see the left seat. Or worse yet, they're in the right seat of 705 with no PIC time, no way to get it and no hope of upgrading. They might end up with a former NW employee as their next captain. Which person spent their 4 years more wisely?
Everything is a trade off and you don't get something for nothing. If a person decides that trading a little bit of earning potential and some time in the Wells is worth getting a bit further faster and with better experience than their contemporaries, who are you to judge. Everybody is just trying to do what's best for them, with the information they have available. At the end of the day, only they will be able to say if it was worth it or not.
Then there's the practice of carrot dangling..... But it's not necessarily the employers fault for involving themselves in that sort of methodology, it's the employee's for taking it and allowing it to perpetuate. But it started from somewhere- Employees with no employer loyalty leads to more of it. It costs a lot to train a new employee in aviation, and with a big sigh, I get bonds. It's just easier than trying to trust you're hiring the right guy to stick around.
As an aside, The argument of ramp time/paying your dues, etc. has been beaten to death, each camp has their perspectives (I personally think it's pure exploitation, but it's business...) but I'd really like to know one thing....
You ask a competent CP, especially one who works for a ramp-to-line company, this scenario:
It's the first revenue flight for a fresh right seater in your Ho/B200. You're the captain and you develop a nasty stomach bug enroute and are completely incapacitated. Who do you want in the right seat? A 200 hour fresh cpl that has spent 2 years on the ground, not a single flight hour in those 2 years before the PCC, with an excellent work ethic and a fantastic command of where all the cleaning products in the hangar are stored, OR a 1000 hour flight instructor with the moderate experience that goes along with it?
While neither is perfect, I have a pretty good idea who "should" be the better choice.
It's true that 200 hrs and a CPL doesn't get you squat, but how does 200 hours, a CPL, and loading bags for 2 years make you a safer pilot??
Anyhow, that's a bit of a tangent. To sum up; To each their own, life isn't a dress rehearsal- make good choices for YOU.
The company is withholding wages for 4 YEARS. Last time I checked no company in the world has a 4 YEAR contract, and they want this to fly ok aircraft out of a shitty base. The way to solve turn over is pay a respectable wage, PERIOD.
Our company scale was ok when I started, in the last 4 months we have implemented a pay scale that will potentially pay a King Air captain 90K, plus full health benefits and a pension plan. Since this has been implemented we have had a Zero turn over rate and only have 1 pilot that will be leaving us for AC in the near future. Prior to this new system our turn over was about 50% though.
The benefit to our company having no turn over. Minimal training costs, Highly expeierenced pilots on every flight, and something even better is our clientele see's the same pilot every time so they feel much more comfortable. It's a win win win for everyone.
NW is a joke for what they are doing