Pilot in Waiting?

[Illya Kuryakin]

So then, in essence what you're saying, is all pilots are retarded? Can't argue with the facts now, can I?
Illya

[cdnpilot77]

That's mostly a fair statement!

[Slats]

The problem,, Slatsrick, is that this type of rampie thing is almost exclusively A Canadian thing.
In other countries pilots are ...well pilots. They find this ramp concept laughable.

Well what realities exist in other countries are of zero consequence to a new CPL looking for work exclusively in Canada. They might as well deal with the reality in which they exist. I mean, in many countries women are worth less than livestock. It's a reality I personally find worse than laughable, yet one they best be mindful of if self-preservation is on their to-do list.

How exactly are your flying skills not deteriorating when you are working the ramp? It is a way for an operator with a turnstyle flight crew staff to have ready and willings on standby.

Ask yourself this. If you are hired with 200 hours as a rampie, and you work the ramp for a year, exactly how much better of a pilot are you? Thought so.

I suppose wearing a hair net and slinging coffee and donuts is your preferred method of improving your flight skills as well as your chances of getting a flying spot? Sounds like a well thought out, logical choice.

Slats.....you're part of the problem.

If approaching reality with common sense and logic is a problem, I guess I'm guilty as charged. If you prefer to arrogantly abide in some non-existent utopia, that's your prerogative.

[trey kule]

I am not defending p2f programs at all. But, like so many things, people like to drag out an example as use it as a general condition.

The simple fact is pilots in other countries are hired as pilots.

Yes Canada is unique in that we still continue to crank out more new pilots than are needed. And some companies have recognized that fact to exploit it. However they can exploit it only as long as there are pilots around who are willing to allow themselves to be exploited.

The companies will tell you that it gives them the opportunity to see how you fit in and your work ethic etc etc. you have to wonder what ability the management really possesses when it takes them a year or to to assess someones suitability by doing a job they were not there to do in the first place.
It is closer to the truth to say that they could not get dedicated ramp rats to do what pilots will do to prove themselves.
And once you understand the creatures you have well you can hang out the carrot of the right seat....at starvation wages of course. They are not concerned about competency. Just a warm body to make regulators and customers happy.

New pilots, on the other hand seem to think this is the way it has to be, and will offer all sorts of rationalizations for their decision. Question there rationale, and they typically will noy see the light, but staunchly defend this exploitation of themselves.

But slats is correct. It is the reality at this point , and as long as pilots can rationalize to themselves that this behaviour is OK, nothing will likely change.

[Illya Kuryakin]

We were interviewing a potential new pilot a few years back. I asked him if, since we were not a rich organization, would he be willing to work for free for 6 months to a year. He said an immediate YES. I said an equally immediate FU$& OFF!
As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya

[trey kule]

Our company continually gets resumes from pilots willing to pay for their own training, work for free etc...they all hit the round bin. We can not change the industry, but we will do what we can.

[dahspeers]

I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.

[trey kule]

Hard to believe anyone would hire a pilot who would not scrub out toilets to show they are a good fit for the company

Seriously, good for you. Be happy to know that no 1 of the fifty behind you is now scrubbing toilets while you are flying.

[imac0960]

I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.

Glad you found something that will allow you to have some self respect. Enjoy!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Hard to believe anyone would hire a pilot who would not scrub out toilets to show they are a good fit for the company

Seriously, good for you. Be happy to know that no 1 of the fifty behind you is now scrubbing toilets while you are flying.

Some among us firmly believe, that after two years of toilet scrubbing, you will learn much about the business, and be a better pilot!
And you have to KNOW, the next guy IS scrubbing toilets!
This industry disgusts me. Grow a pair! If you're willing, after spending thirty grand for a CPL, to scrub toilets.....you'll be scrubbing toilets! What we have developed here, is wuss pilots, and scumbag companies willing to take advantage of their stupidity!
Illya

[Diadem]

As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya

Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.

[imac0960]

As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya

Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.

[Illya Kuryakin]

As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya

Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.

The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya

[Diadem]

The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya

And what do these professionals do when they can't find work in their chosen professions? Do they sit back on welfare and wait for a job to be handed to them? If they choose to vacuum carpets and clean toilets while they wait for a job to open up in their chosen profession because it pays better than welfare, do you have a problem with that, or is it only pilots? Would you take issue with a lawyer accepting this Tindi loadmaster/flight attendant position? For that matter, do you have an issue with that lawyer spending a couple of years articling for low wages while proving that he or she has what it takes to be a lawyer? Oh, that's right, PROFESSIONALS do have to do crap work to pay their dues...

[Illya Kuryakin]

Diadem, not my fault you're willing to be used. The ball is in your court. It's up to you to play it. You want to enter into slavery, I don't really care. It's your choice. Just don't force your misfortune on the rest of us.
Illya

[imac0960]

Other industries have internships. I'm by no means saying that the whole aviation world should have everyone scrub toilets to become a pilot in their company. Like Diadem said, working around aviation making contacts and being in the industry is better than working at McDonalds after you just spent $60k to become a CPL doesn't make much sense either. You need the experience, like other professions, and personally I'd rather get paid than do an internship

[goingnowherefast]

Kids need to look at the job market before they start training in a particular field. In high school everybody is taught to follow their dreams and things will work out. Everybody thinks pilots are cool, there's a shortage, pay is good, blah blah blah, so they go to flight school. Now we have twice as many 200hr pilots as there are jobs for.

In general, quite a few people go back to college for a second or third time before they can find a respectable job. Hmm, with that many repeat customers, maybe I should teach.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Kids need to look at the job market before they start training in a particular field. In high school everybody is taught to follow their dreams and things will work out. Everybody thinks pilots are cool, there's a shortage, pay is good, blah blah blah, so they go to flight school. Now we have twice as many 200hr pilots as there are jobs for.

In general, quite a few people go back to college for a second or third time before they can find a respectable job. Hmm, with that many repeat customers, maybe I should teach.

Good advice,
Illya

[FenderManDan]

The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya

And what do these professionals do when they can't find work in their chosen professions? Do they sit back on welfare and wait for a job to be handed to them? If they choose to vacuum carpets and clean toilets while they wait for a job to open up in their chosen profession because it pays better than welfare, do you have a problem with that, or is it only pilots? Would you take issue with a lawyer accepting this Tindi loadmaster/flight attendant position? For that matter, do you have an issue with that lawyer spending a couple of years articling for low wages while proving that he or she has what it takes to be a lawyer? Oh, that's right, PROFESSIONALS do have to do crap work to pay their dues...

@Diadem, You are just going to flip and give up like that? There is life beyond the aviation business. It does not mean flipping burgers.

The gist I get here is that droves of young pilots get their CPLs blindly without the plan B. Operators are using this situation.

Don't blame operators though. There are a bunch of scumbags, but the bottom line is they all are focusing on their bottom line. Aviation business has very thin margins.

Young pilots should get some real education should the piloting not work out for various reasons.
Young pilots should network more and clean toilets less. The new stock broker does not go do janitorial duties to meet senior stock brokers, they schmooze. There are many examples, learn from that and stop beeing sheep.

[Colonel Sanders]

Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training

No, you should have never spent that
in the first place. And certainly not as
training to clean toilets.

Lawyers and doctors, when they are
interning, are actually working in their
field. Cheaply for long hours, yes, but
they are actually doing what they were
trained to do.

How many lawyers clean toilets when
they are interning?

You simply can't compare the two.