Pilot in Waiting?

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trey kule
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by trey kule »

Our company continually gets resumes from pilots willing to pay for their own training, work for free etc...they all hit the round bin. We can not change the industry, but we will do what we can.
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dahspeers
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by dahspeers »

I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.
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trey kule
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by trey kule »

Hard to believe anyone would hire a pilot who would not scrub out toilets to show they are a good fit for the company :smt040

Seriously, good for you. Be happy to know that no 1 of the fifty behind you is now scrubbing toilets while you are flying.
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imac0960
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by imac0960 »

dahspeers wrote:I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.
Glad you found something that will allow you to have some self respect. Enjoy! :D
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

trey kule wrote:Hard to believe anyone would hire a pilot who would not scrub out toilets to show they are a good fit for the company :smt040

Seriously, good for you. Be happy to know that no 1 of the fifty behind you is now scrubbing toilets while you are flying.

Some among us firmly believe, that after two years of toilet scrubbing, you will learn much about the business, and be a better pilot!
And you have to KNOW, the next guy IS scrubbing toilets!
This industry disgusts me. Grow a pair! If you're willing, after spending thirty grand for a CPL, to scrub toilets.....you'll be scrubbing toilets! What we have developed here, is wuss pilots, and scumbag companies willing to take advantage of their stupidity!
Illya
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya
Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.
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imac0960
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by imac0960 »

Diadem wrote:
Illya Kuryakin wrote:As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya
Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.

:prayer:
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Diadem wrote:
Illya Kuryakin wrote:As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya
Perhaps if those people worked in schools and offices where they made contacts in the fields in which they were trained, they would find jobs in their chosen careers faster than they would flipping burgers and serving doughnuts. After all, everyone on AvCanada says that it's contacts which get you a job. And really, what's the difference between working as a janitor or working in fast food if you're just doing it to pay your bills until something better comes along? Why would you refuse to work for a company for which you would like to work because they don't offer you the exact position you're looking for, even if you're only looking for something to provide an income?
I didn't have $25000 to spend on a type rating after I finished flight school, and if I had refused to work the ramp I would still be waiting for a flying position to be dropped in my lap, all while making minimum wage. Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training and abandoned the career for which I had worked since I was in kindergarten all because I was too principled to work for an air operator in any capacity other than flying? I worked as a rampie before I was licenced because I needed the money, but I bet no one on here has a problem with that because there was never a chance of it leading to a cockpit, so why would would it be any different after I became a commercial pilot and kept making money moving boxes while waiting for a flying position? Should aviation be reserved for the wealthy, and only those whose parents can afford to subsidize a type rating? It's easy enough to say that we should refuse to take anything other than a flying job if you were handed one right out of flight school, but not all of us have that luxury.
The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya
And what do these professionals do when they can't find work in their chosen professions? Do they sit back on welfare and wait for a job to be handed to them? If they choose to vacuum carpets and clean toilets while they wait for a job to open up in their chosen profession because it pays better than welfare, do you have a problem with that, or is it only pilots? Would you take issue with a lawyer accepting this Tindi loadmaster/flight attendant position? For that matter, do you have an issue with that lawyer spending a couple of years articling for low wages while proving that he or she has what it takes to be a lawyer? Oh, that's right, PROFESSIONALS do have to do crap work to pay their dues...
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Diadem, not my fault you're willing to be used. The ball is in your court. It's up to you to play it. You want to enter into slavery, I don't really care. It's your choice. Just don't force your misfortune on the rest of us.
Illya
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imac0960
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by imac0960 »

Other industries have internships. I'm by no means saying that the whole aviation world should have everyone scrub toilets to become a pilot in their company. Like Diadem said, working around aviation making contacts and being in the industry is better than working at McDonalds after you just spent $60k to become a CPL doesn't make much sense either. You need the experience, like other professions, and personally I'd rather get paid than do an internship
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Kids need to look at the job market before they start training in a particular field. In high school everybody is taught to follow their dreams and things will work out. Everybody thinks pilots are cool, there's a shortage, pay is good, blah blah blah, so they go to flight school. Now we have twice as many 200hr pilots as there are jobs for.

In general, quite a few people go back to college for a second or third time before they can find a respectable job. Hmm, with that many repeat customers, maybe I should teach.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

goingnowherefast wrote:Kids need to look at the job market before they start training in a particular field. In high school everybody is taught to follow their dreams and things will work out. Everybody thinks pilots are cool, there's a shortage, pay is good, blah blah blah, so they go to flight school. Now we have twice as many 200hr pilots as there are jobs for.

In general, quite a few people go back to college for a second or third time before they can find a respectable job. Hmm, with that many repeat customers, maybe I should teach.
Good advice,
Illya
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FenderManDan
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by FenderManDan »

Diadem wrote:
Illya Kuryakin wrote:The reason this doesn't happen in other industries is simple. They're PROFESSIONALS! They don't require future employees to clean toilets in the misguided opinion, these degrading, irrelevant, menial tasks will make them better at their chosen PROFESSIONS. But, you guys can keep singing the same tired old tune. Perhaps vacuuming carpets, cleaning toilets, tossing bags, kissing ass, etc., is what you actually should be doing? You make your bed. You sleep in it.
Illya
And what do these professionals do when they can't find work in their chosen professions? Do they sit back on welfare and wait for a job to be handed to them? If they choose to vacuum carpets and clean toilets while they wait for a job to open up in their chosen profession because it pays better than welfare, do you have a problem with that, or is it only pilots? Would you take issue with a lawyer accepting this Tindi loadmaster/flight attendant position? For that matter, do you have an issue with that lawyer spending a couple of years articling for low wages while proving that he or she has what it takes to be a lawyer? Oh, that's right, PROFESSIONALS do have to do crap work to pay their dues...
@Diadem, You are just going to flip and give up like that? There is life beyond the aviation business. It does not mean flipping burgers.

The gist I get here is that droves of young pilots get their CPLs blindly without the plan B. Operators are using this situation.

Don't blame operators though. There are a bunch of scumbags, but the bottom line is they all are focusing on their bottom line. Aviation business has very thin margins.

Young pilots should get some real education should the piloting not work out for various reasons.
Young pilots should network more and clean toilets less. The new stock broker does not go do janitorial duties to meet senior stock brokers, they schmooze. There are many examples, learn from that and stop beeing sheep.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Should I have thrown away the $70000 I spent on my training
No, you should have never spent that
in the first place. And certainly not as
training to clean toilets.

Lawyers and doctors, when they are
interning, are actually working in their
field. Cheaply for long hours, yes, but
they are actually doing what they were
trained to do.

How many lawyers clean toilets when
they are interning?

You simply can't compare the two.
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imac0960
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by imac0960 »

A lot of interns end up doing a lot of crappy jobs and employers abuse them as well. They are using it as a way to get free labour. Internships are designed to bridge a gap between schooling and experience needed for employment. A few internships don't lead to employment. Why pay someone when they can just get a new grad to work for free.

The problem of exploiting people isn't solely in aviation. Employers are able to be picky because of the current job market. It's a race to the bottom and it's only going to get worse
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Colonel Sanders »

An articling lawyer (intern) will work in
the field of law, for which he trained, for
long hours and poor wages, until he is
fully qualified (pass the bar exam)

A resident doctor (intern) will work in
the field of medicine, for which he trained,
for long hours and poor wages until he
is fully qualified.

A rampie will clean toilets - which is
NOT what he was trained to do, as a
pilot - for long hours and poor wages,
because unethical employers exploit
a high supply and low demand.

Who here learned to clean toilets in
flight school, to prepare them for their
work career?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

imac0960 wrote:A lot of interns end up doing a lot of crappy jobs and employers abuse them as well. They are using it as a way to get free labour. Internships are designed to bridge a gap between schooling and experience needed for employment. A few internships don't lead to employment. Why pay someone when they can just get a new grad to work for free.

The problem of exploiting people isn't solely in aviation. Employers are able to be picky because of the current job market. It's a race to the bottom and it's only going to get worse
It's a race to the bottom because nobody researches the JOB MARKET before going to flight college. I took a tour of Con College when my daughter was looking at being a pilot. The director claimed that all their students were employed. As pilots? "Well no, they can't get jobs as PILOTS right out of school, but they all have jobs on ramps and docks....."

Welcome to the exploitation of people too stupid not to be exploited.

And, that's the bottom line. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid there kids!

Illya
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dahspeers
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by dahspeers »

To the guy who kind of spazzed there.

I didn't buy a type rating. I did however spend the last two years "dispatching" and doing the PRM duties for the flight school I did my license with, while working on my CPL which I only finished in November. I also have farming and a couple trades in my background, which most float operators seem to like.

When I worked in garages, owners would hold the apprenticeship carrot in front of kids to get them to sweep the floor and wash cars. Much like some operators hold a flying carrot in front of pilots to get them to scrub toilets. I knew that game before I got into aviation. It's a great way to get cheap labour with a long line of replacements.

My first offer, the carrot was sitting in the right seat on "busier" days. I don't have my Multi-IFR. Experience? Yes. Loggable time? Nope.
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by A346Dude »

I will never understand how it's acceptable to flip burgers but it's not acceptable to work the ramp while waiting for a flying job. One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day, the other offers none.

It's a shame that's the way it is, but until there are more entry-level pilot jobs than there are entry-level pilots, nothing will change.
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

I never cleaned a toilet while I worked on the ramp. I moved some freight and towed some planes, but I spent a lot of my time learning the operation; I helped with flight planning and customs, I took ground schools, I learned the COM inside and out, and I got my qualifications completed for DG, first aid and CRM. Starting flying right away would have been nice, but I took advantage of the limited opportunity that I had.
I started my training at the absolute best time in the job market: guys who graduated the year before me were hired straight into Navajos, and upgraded within six months. There was nothing that would have indicated to me that I wouldn't have the same bright future. Instead, when I finished my training, the recession was at its worst and there weren't even ramp jobs available. I spent a few months looking for direct-entry flying jobs, then a few more looking for ramp jobs, and after six months of unemployment I bit the bullet and got my instructor rating. The economy was so bad that there weren't enough students to go around. I needed to work, and I wasn't about to give up on the career for which I'd worked so hard. I was offered a job on the ramp, with an upgrade to a flying position whenever a spot opened up, with no minimum wait time. If I hadn't taken it, is still be making minimum wage and wouldn't be flying; I'm making a lot more money now, so it was by far the best option in the long run. I don't know why anyone would endorse endless poverty just to make some stubborn point.
Two final questions: First, if a lawyer or doctor can't find work in his or her chosen profession, even in an entry-level position, what should he or she do? Whine and pout to mommy and daddy until they get more money and sit around waiting for a job, or get a job doing something else? Would you be so principled about a doctor working as a janitor in a hospital to pay the bills and make contacts?
Second, why did it become unacceptable for me to work as a rampie the day I got my CPL signed off? I worked as a rampie to make money before I was licensed, but the day I got a C on my license I couldn't do that anymore on principle?
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

So you "bit the bullet and got my instructor rating....." What a favour that was for your students! An instructor who didn't want to be there in the first place.
Illya
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by A346Dude »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:So you "bit the bullet and got my instructor rating....." What a favour that was for your students! An instructor who didn't want to be there in the first place.
You do realize most people do a job that isn't their absolute first choice right? At least for some of their working life.

Most instructors will not instruct their whole career. It doesn't mean they don't want to be there and it doesn't make them bad people.
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trey kule
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by trey kule »

One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day, the other offers none.
A perfect example of rationalization.

There are pilots who go from working other jobs to pilots jobs directly,

We see on here the success stories that involved networking . We hear about successful road trips. And of course, the rampie who made it.

Are they typical? Does everyone who goes on a road trip get a job ?

And of course we read that new pilots must work the ramp. Why? Because they make statements like the quoted one as if they were true.

It is simply supply and demand, if Canada cranked out 10000 doctors a year, or 20000 dentists the situation for them would probably be the same.

But we have all these govt subsidized aviation colleges cranking pilots out like there is no end to it. Pilots without experience, and you simply can not substitute training for some experience.

The bush has shrunk, so to speak, so there are less opportunities to get experience in that area.

Instructing seems to be one of the default areas which is to bad, as to many of the instructors don't have the experience, the maturity, or the motivation to be instructing. Results in the real professional instructors having to work for lower wages as the colleges and FTUs are not looking for quality..they are looking for low cost instructors. After all, poor instructors ultimately mean more revenue for them..

It is interesting that in some undeveloped countries you actually have to demonstrate aptitude to get a student spot in a flight school...here, not so much.

The politicians who are ultimately responsible for tax payer subsidized training should really be taking an independent look at exactly how many college grads are working as pilots instead of simply believing what some self serving college board tells them.

I think it would go a long way to relieving the present situation.
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

I remember seeing Wasaya advertising a job labelled as "Pilot Apprentice" the other week...Duties included hangar work, loading aircraft and office work etc. I lol'd pretty hard :smt023
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