Direct Entry Captain Course

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crj_705
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Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by crj_705 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Just curious...with the above direct entry captain course planned for Sept 9th, 2019 does this mean that SKR doesn't have any F/O's that are due or qualified for an upgrade??? Kinda sad if they do indeed have some 3-4 year F/O's just chomping at the bid yet the Company might just past them by...???
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DanWEC
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by DanWEC » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:41 pm

Not "too" many 3-4 year FO's at Sky. They're usually unique situations for any number of reasons.

The main issue there is that while capt attrition has always been at a steady rate, the FO's previously hired at 2500 hours were upgradeable at the 2 years by the matrix (Also coincidentally eligible for flow to AC).

Now guys are getting in with 1000-1500 hours and can't see the left seat for an additional year maybe (6-700 hrs/ year). This created a gap, necessitating the DEC's
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altiplano
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by altiplano » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm

How much are Captains paid at Sky?

Is it hourly? Guarantee? Salary?

How much are they working?
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Warden » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:32 pm

DanWEC wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:41 pm
Not "too" many 3-4 year FO's at Sky. They're usually unique situations for any number of reasons.

The main issue there is that while capt attrition has always been at a steady rate, the FO's previously hired at 2500 hours were upgradeable at the 2 years by the matrix (Also coincidentally eligible for flow to AC).

Now guys are getting in with 1000-1500 hours and can't see the left seat for an additional year maybe (6-700 hrs/ year). This created a gap, necessitating the DEC's
Easy solution. Lower the matrix. Seems to be working just fine for Jazz. Make the qualification and PIC assessments difficult and it will weed out the weak and unprepared. I'm sure there are some pilots at SKR that would make great Captains but do not meet the matrix.
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metalbusdriver
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by metalbusdriver » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm
How much are Captains paid at Sky?

Is it hourly? Guarantee? Salary?

How much are they working?
Starting pay $80.70 an hour, 75 hour monthly gaurentee but most flying blocks around 80-85hrs.
Working 16-19 days a month with 11 days off a month minimum.
Overtime over 85hrs paid at 1.5x
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dialdriver
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by dialdriver » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm

metalbusdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm
How much are Captains paid at Sky?

Is it hourly? Guarantee? Salary?

How much are they working?
Starting pay $80.70 an hour, 75 hour monthly gaurentee but most flying blocks around 80-85hrs.
Working 16-19 days a month with 11 days off a month minimum.
Overtime over 85hrs paid at 1.5x
Is that FO rates?
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MCB
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by MCB » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:58 pm

dialdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm
metalbusdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm
How much are Captains paid at Sky?

Is it hourly? Guarantee? Salary?

How much are they working?
Starting pay $80.70 an hour, 75 hour monthly gaurentee but most flying blocks around 80-85hrs.
Working 16-19 days a month with 11 days off a month minimum.
Overtime over 85hrs paid at 1.5x
Is that FO rates?
It’s sad because I don’t even know if you’re kidding or not. Those are indeed the Captain rates.
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dialdriver
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by dialdriver » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:45 pm

MCB wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:58 pm
dialdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm
metalbusdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm


Starting pay $80.70 an hour, 75 hour monthly gaurentee but most flying blocks around 80-85hrs.
Working 16-19 days a month with 11 days off a month minimum.
Overtime over 85hrs paid at 1.5x
Is that FO rates?
It’s sad because I don’t even know if you’re kidding or not. Those are indeed the Captain rates.
I'm kidding, but these are truly pathetic.
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Cargo Fire
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Cargo Fire » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm

[/quote]
Easy solution. Lower the matrix. Seems to be working just fine for Jazz. Make the qualification and PIC assessments difficult and it will weed out the weak and unprepared. I'm sure there are some pilots at SKR that would make great Captains but do not meet the matrix.
[/quote]

You sound like so many of the 2000 hour wonders that I fly with. Absolutely zero real world experience and depth to draw on. Zero stories of Deals made with a higher Power. You know. Get me out of this shit and I'll never do that again. Zero 705 Command or any real command and a whopping 15 months in the right seat where you "learned it all" plus I'm sure you have a College degree and that puts you way above the lowly guy that spent 7 years in the North discovering a new found appreciation for Religion and a quality Dry Cleaner.

Yes, it's worked out so well for Jazz. That's why they sent out internal memos on how to properly land a CRJ. Guess the bent air frames got expensive. Or the internal memo on how to Not fly through P56 into DCA and almost get shot down. Yup. Working really well for them. PULL UP in Whitehorse!

So yeah, you're right, lower the Matrix. Hell, just get rid of it. We know you can master Commanding the ship through LGA and the rest of the busiest airspace in the World there Sparky!

Too bad you're going to discover Religion and learn your lessons with J Class passengers behind you in a nice Jet instead of a clapped out King Air going to Pikangikum. But yeah, lower the Matrix. It's working so well for Jazz. God Speed Sparky!
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mato
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by mato » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

So angry!
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Cargo Fire
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Cargo Fire » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:11 pm

mato wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm
So angry!
No. Not really angry. More like just shaking my head. It's actually sad to think of all the professionals that I flew with up north that had many many thousands of hours and passed on that knowledge to me. They had to as there wasn't a Matrix after 9/11, just a lot of time to learn that I'll never regret.

Now there is just a ton of entitled inexperienced people that think somehow they have paid their dues. I mean shit....they sat right seat for 2 years on a Q400, they are more than entitled to a Jet Command......right? And they know the books inside out, what else is there to know about flying?? Give me the 4 bars, I'm owed it.

Some good front page stories coming I'm sure. Although I hope I'm wrong. Jazz I already touched on. Skyregional already made the news with diversions to IAD and ALB last year. That wouldn't have happened with the old experienced guys that had years of events to draw on. And those only cost $$$ and bad press. So far. Yeah. Let's forget the matrix. Congratulations Sparky, you're now a Skipper!
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digits_
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 am

Cargo Fire wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm
Easy solution. Lower the matrix. Seems to be working just fine for Jazz. Make the qualification and PIC assessments difficult and it will weed out the weak and unprepared. I'm sure there are some pilots at SKR that would make great Captains but do not meet the matrix.
You sound like so many of the 2000 hour wonders that I fly with. Absolutely zero real world experience and depth to draw on. Zero stories of Deals made with a higher Power. You know. Get me out of this shit and I'll never do that again. Zero 705 Command or any real command and a whopping 15 months in the right seat where you "learned it all" plus I'm sure you have a College degree and that puts you way above the lowly guy that spent 7 years in the North discovering a new found appreciation for Religion and a quality Dry Cleaner.

Yes, it's worked out so well for Jazz. That's why they sent out internal memos on how to properly land a CRJ. Guess the bent air frames got expensive. Or the internal memo on how to Not fly through P56 into DCA and almost get shot down. Yup. Working really well for them. PULL UP in Whitehorse!

So yeah, you're right, lower the Matrix. Hell, just get rid of it. We know you can master Commanding the ship through LGA and the rest of the busiest airspace in the World there Sparky!

Too bad you're going to discover Religion and learn your lessons with J Class passengers behind you in a nice Jet instead of a clapped out King Air going to Pikangikum. But yeah, lower the Matrix. It's working so well for Jazz. God Speed Sparky!
At first glance that sounds like a valid concern, but let's pick it apart a bit:

1) Deals with god
What deals made with god in a 703 bush operatiom are applicable to a 705 operation? Most stories I have heard and/or experienced are caused by shitty equipment, shitty weather and pilots afraid of losing their job. Even the most mel'd airline plane will have better equipment than a fully functional 206. Afraid of losing your job? Most 705 ops are unionised. About as safe as you can get in that regards. Weather? A 705 plane operating in typical airline ops can reach more alternates than an overladed navajo ever will.

2) there seems to be a mindset that those war stories are required to make it as a pilot. I disagree. I have more respect for a pilot who never found himself in such situations than one who has a ton of stories like that (with otherwise comparable expierences)

3) 2000 hour wonders. We have 2000 hour wonders now? How much experience would you say one needs? Could it be that answer would be the hours you had when you upgraded? If you operate in the right seat for 2 years flying the same limited amount of routes, why would a sharp FO not be able to upgrade? There seems to be a misconception that lowering the required hours to -for example- 2000 hours would mean that every 2000 hour pilot would have to be upgraded. Not at all, just allow it for people that are ready. Have a selection process going on for upgrades, don't just blindly follow seniority.
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SeñorPiloto
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by SeñorPiloto » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:46 am

Cargo Fire wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm
Easy solution. Lower the matrix. Seems to be working just fine for Jazz. Make the qualification and PIC assessments difficult and it will weed out the weak and unprepared. I'm sure there are some pilots at SKR that would make great Captains but do not meet the matrix.
[/quote]

You sound like so many of the 2000 hour wonders that I fly with. Absolutely zero real world experience and depth to draw on. Zero stories of Deals made with a higher Power. You know. Get me out of this shit and I'll never do that again. Zero 705 Command or any real command and a whopping 15 months in the right seat where you "learned it all" plus I'm sure you have a College degree and that puts you way above the lowly guy that spent 7 years in the North discovering a new found appreciation for Religion and a quality Dry Cleaner.

Yes, it's worked out so well for Jazz. That's why they sent out internal memos on how to properly land a CRJ. Guess the bent air frames got expensive. Or the internal memo on how to Not fly through P56 into DCA and almost get shot down. Yup. Working really well for them. PULL UP in Whitehorse!

So yeah, you're right, lower the Matrix. Hell, just get rid of it. We know you can master Commanding the ship through LGA and the rest of the busiest airspace in the World there Sparky!

Too bad you're going to discover Religion and learn your lessons with J Class passengers behind you in a nice Jet instead of a clapped out King Air going to Pikangikum. But yeah, lower the Matrix. It's working so well for Jazz. God Speed Sparky!
[/quote]

NAILED IT!
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:11 am

Zero 705 command time? Of course they have zero before upgrading at what would be their first 705 company. Frig, places like sky are where you go after the 703/704 world. You don't go sideways from one 705 over to sky. "Nailed it"? Hardly.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by co-joe » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:29 pm

metalbusdriver wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm
How much are Captains paid at Sky?

Is it hourly? Guarantee? Salary?

How much are they working?
Starting pay $80.70 an hour, 75 hour monthly gaurentee but most flying blocks around 80-85hrs.
Working 16-19 days a month with 11 days off a month minimum.
Overtime over 85hrs paid at 1.5x
So Sky Captains make 73k a year then? Welcome to the world of tomorrow I guess.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Anticyclone » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:43 pm

Not sure about this company procedure but did they issue an internal bidding for sep 9th class? if yes can anyone share the results? just to see how desperate they are,
Thanks.
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GoinVertical
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by GoinVertical » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:14 pm

Anticyclone wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:43 pm
Not sure about this company procedure but did they issue an internal bidding for sep 9th class? if yes can anyone share the results? just to see how desperate they are,
Thanks.
Don't work there, but back in May a buddy of mine showed me the list for the next upgrade course - 3 out of 8 spaces awarded in YYZ, and 0 out of 8 awarded in YUL. So pretty desperate I'd say.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Anticyclone » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:43 am

GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:14 pm
Anticyclone wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:43 pm
Not sure about this company procedure but did they issue an internal bidding for sep 9th class? if yes can anyone share the results? just to see how desperate they are,
Thanks.
Don't work there, but back in May a buddy of mine showed me the list for the next upgrade course - 3 out of 8 spaces awarded in YYZ, and 0 out of 8 awarded in YUL. So pretty desperate I'd say.
Cheers mate.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by co-joe » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:05 pm

With that pay, they may as well just upgrade some 2000 hour co-joes and see what happens.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:45 pm

No wonder they're running out of captains. Even if they work you 85hrs a month, that's still just a hair above $80,000.

I wonder if anybody who meets the requirements would even be interested in that pay? Working conditions might be an improvement from swoop, but that's a pretty low bar.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by PSL » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm

You can easily make 100K a year with all the draft available and some good friends in Crew Sched.

What sucks is the way management will control things. Flight Ops is full of yes men to management who don't really have much of any backbones (with the one exception). What used to be a public little boys club is now a the same club just a little less public. Make sure you're in and part of the group. In terms of dispatch, its Air Canada dispatch. Ground Crew, Air Canada ground crew. Agents are AC agents, passengers are AC passengers.

You work in the exact same conditions as our friends at Air Canada and get paid 50K less than them with worse off working conditions in my opinion. There are some fantastic First Officers who are more qualified than some Captains within the company and unfortunately they are stuck within our matrix. Some other FOs are coming from low time companies on their first jet and are just so excited and "privileged" to be flying the AC banner in a 705 operation. The standard of making 80K a year is better than anything up north, any flight instructor salary ever in YUL or YYZ. So yes things are good when it is all new to you.

DEC: Anyone who is qualified to be a DEC should think twice. Personal circumstances may dictate otherwise like having a retirement job or unable to retire because of 4 ex wives and living in a trailer park. To each their own and those people, myself included, have to accept it. You work in the sandbox for 8 years and can't go back to the right seat? This job is for you, for a year. Until you realize how much you hate it and how it isn't the same.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Cavalier44 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:27 am

PSL wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm
You can easily make 100K a year with all the draft available and some good friends in Crew Sched.

What sucks is the way management will control things. Flight Ops is full of yes men to management who don't really have much of any backbones (with the one exception). What used to be a public little boys club is now a the same club just a little less public. Make sure you're in and part of the group. In terms of dispatch, its Air Canada dispatch. Ground Crew, Air Canada ground crew. Agents are AC agents, passengers are AC passengers.

You work in the exact same conditions as our friends at Air Canada and get paid 50K less than them with worse off working conditions in my opinion. There are some fantastic First Officers who are more qualified than some Captains within the company and unfortunately they are stuck within our matrix. Some other FOs are coming from low time companies on their first jet and are just so excited and "privileged" to be flying the AC banner in a 705 operation. The standard of making 80K a year is better than anything up north, any flight instructor salary ever in YUL or YYZ. So yes things are good when it is all new to you.

DEC: Anyone who is qualified to be a DEC should think twice. Personal circumstances may dictate otherwise like having a retirement job or unable to retire because of 4 ex wives and living in a trailer park. To each their own and those people, myself included, have to accept it. You work in the sandbox for 8 years and can't go back to the right seat? This job is for you, for a year. Until you realize how much you hate it and how it isn't the same.
Agreed on all points. Just finished four years at this company and while it wasn’t all bad, I couldn’t encourage anyone to go there at this time, especially as a DEC.

Captains at this company are egregiously underpaid. You’ll be working 19-20 days a month, doing three and four leg days, and flying into places like EWR/LGA/ORD for 80k/year. Meanwhile E190 skippers at AC are pulling in 150k-160k/year to fly virtually the same airplane with 21 more seats, and they’re working at max 16 days per month. The planes have the same red maple leaf on the tail, but you’ll absolutely be made to feel like a second class citizen.

If you’re coming to Sky with the hopes of eventually making the jump to mainline, forget it. Jazz’s new agreement stipulates that 60% of the pilots that AC hires must come from Jazz; Sky has no such agreement in place. Couple that with Sky being consistently understaffed (especially for Captains), and you can see why hiring from Sky to AC has all but ground to a standstill in the past year. Now consider the fact that Sky is due to enter union negotiations for their first contract this Fall, and you can bet the company is going to be digging its heels in and dangling the carrot of flow through over its pilot’s heads with the hope of extracting concessions during the negotiation process.

If you’re coming in as a DEC, you’ll also be subject to the fact that every FO who was already employed there who upgrades will parachute in above you in seniority, meaning you’re going to be spending a long time holding reserve at the bottom of the list.

In summary - if you have the time and experience to meet the matrix for DEC, you can certainly do better elsewhere. This is not a company to make a long-term career at and sadly, the one factor that was attractive, eventual flow to mainline, has all but ceased for the time being.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by VeRmiLLioN » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:11 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:27 am

Captains at this company are egregiously underpaid. You’ll be working 19-20 days a month, doing three and four leg days, and flying into places like EWR/LGA/ORD for 80k/year. Meanwhile E190 skippers at AC are pulling in 150k-160k/year to fly virtually the same airplane with 21 more seats, and they’re working at max 16 days per month. The planes have the same red maple leaf on the tail, but you’ll absolutely be made to feel like a second class citizen.
Pretty sure Mainline ACPA pilots didn't want to lose the E175s to Sky.

And you didn't have to accept the low paying job to fly them at Sky.

In theory, you made yourself a second class citizen.
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by CanadianPilotQc » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:41 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:27 am
PSL wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm
You can easily make 100K a year with all the draft available and some good friends in Crew Sched.

What sucks is the way management will control things. Flight Ops is full of yes men to management who don't really have much of any backbones (with the one exception). What used to be a public little boys club is now a the same club just a little less public. Make sure you're in and part of the group. In terms of dispatch, its Air Canada dispatch. Ground Crew, Air Canada ground crew. Agents are AC agents, passengers are AC passengers.

You work in the exact same conditions as our friends at Air Canada and get paid 50K less than them with worse off working conditions in my opinion. There are some fantastic First Officers who are more qualified than some Captains within the company and unfortunately they are stuck within our matrix. Some other FOs are coming from low time companies on their first jet and are just so excited and "privileged" to be flying the AC banner in a 705 operation. The standard of making 80K a year is better than anything up north, any flight instructor salary ever in YUL or YYZ. So yes things are good when it is all new to you.

DEC: Anyone who is qualified to be a DEC should think twice. Personal circumstances may dictate otherwise like having a retirement job or unable to retire because of 4 ex wives and living in a trailer park. To each their own and those people, myself included, have to accept it. You work in the sandbox for 8 years and can't go back to the right seat? This job is for you, for a year. Until you realize how much you hate it and how it isn't the same.
Agreed on all points. Just finished four years at this company and while it wasn’t all bad, I couldn’t encourage anyone to go there at this time, especially as a DEC.

Captains at this company are egregiously underpaid. You’ll be working 19-20 days a month, doing three and four leg days, and flying into places like EWR/LGA/ORD for 80k/year. Meanwhile E190 skippers at AC are pulling in 150k-160k/year to fly virtually the same airplane with 21 more seats, and they’re working at max 16 days per month. The planes have the same red maple leaf on the tail, but you’ll absolutely be made to feel like a second class citizen.

If you’re coming to Sky with the hopes of eventually making the jump to mainline, forget it. Jazz’s new agreement stipulates that 60% of the pilots that AC hires must come from Jazz; Sky has no such agreement in place. Couple that with Sky being consistently understaffed (especially for Captains), and you can see why hiring from Sky to AC has all but ground to a standstill in the past year. Now consider the fact that Sky is due to enter union negotiations for their first contract this Fall, and you can bet the company is going to be digging its heels in and dangling the carrot of flow through over its pilot’s heads with the hope of extracting concessions during the negotiation process.

If you’re coming in as a DEC, you’ll also be subject to the fact that every FO who was already employed there who upgrades will parachute in above you in seniority, meaning you’re going to be spending a long time holding reserve at the bottom of the list.

In summary - if you have the time and experience to meet the matrix for DEC, you can certainly do better elsewhere. This is not a company to make a long-term career at and sadly, the one factor that was attractive, eventual flow to mainline, has all but ceased for the time being.
Well you sound like someone who got pfo'off... in the last year I know personally at least 10 pilots from Sky that went on to AC, don't know what you talking about here bud...

From my understanding you stayed there 2 years as a captain, why did you accept theses conditions then?

funny pilots that spit in the soup when they get on something better..
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Re: Direct Entry Captain Course

Post by Cavalier44 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:01 pm

Well you sound like someone who got pfo'off... in the last year I know personally at least 10 pilots from Sky that went on to AC, don't know what you talking about here bud...

From my understanding you stayed there 2 years as a captain, why did you accept theses conditions then?

funny pilots that spit in the soup when they get on something better..
You’re entitled to your opinion - however, to set the record straight, I’ve never been PFO’d from AC, in fact I’ve never interviewed there. As for your buddies who went to AC in the past year, we all know the same people who have been successfully hired by AC, and I’m very happy for them. However, how many went before Jazz negotiated their new agreement? How many since? The fact that the process has slowed down significantly for Sky pilots since the early Spring of 2019 is not a fabrication.

It’s funny that when anyone posts something critical of a previous employer on this forum, guys seem to come out of the woodwork to attack the credibility of the poster. If you look at my post history, I was initially an ardent supporter of Sky, especially when there was a significant amount of criticism of the company on this forum.

The reason I accepted the conditions at the time are very simple - it was an ideal opportunity and lifestyle choice for me at the time. Over the last few years I’ve seen the working conditions deteriorate, which is why I’ve sought out other opportunities elsewhere. Lack of transparency, deteriorating relationship between management and the pilot/FA groups, lack of communication, an increasingly demanding schedule with many inefficient pairings, etc. have all contributed to my decision to leave. That’s my personal experience which may not be the same as yours as anyone else’s, but I’ve elected to give an honest account of my experiences so that other prospective new hires can take that into consideration when they make their decision as to whether to go to Sky.
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