Union at Sky

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DropTanks
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by DropTanks » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:17 pm

Right on!
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rudder
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by rudder » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:17 am

Congrats to the SKY pilots. If enough cards were filed then the certification should be automatic.

With the full support of ALPA and the other Express pilot groups, the SKY pilots should be able to achieve a fair and appropriate collective agreement. Hope that SKY management does not repeat the errors of GGN management.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by GATRKGA » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:56 pm

And we are certified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Art Garfunkel » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:24 pm

Congratulations to the pilots at Sky Regional. Way to step up and be part of a global pilot community.

"if you don't have a seat at the table, you are probably on the menu"


Congrats,

Art
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PSL
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by PSL » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Congrats to my fellow pilots
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Cavalier44
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Cavalier44 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:31 pm

Awesome news today. Big shout out to the Sky Regional ALPA Organizing Committee for all their hard work making this happen over the last year or so. Looking forward to see what the future will hold.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by confusedalot » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Best of luck guys. Forcibly retired in 2015 (nothing to do with sky), it's about time that people get treated at the same level as everyone else in society.

Carry on.

Got some buddies doing the same job with money coming out of their ears.
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Alcoholism
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Alcoholism » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:18 pm

wtf do you keep bring up your retired. Don't you have anything better to do other than making threats to AC pilots?
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by confusedalot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:59 am

Alcoholism wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:18 pm
wtf do you keep bring up your retired. Don't you have anything better to do other than making threats to AC pilots?
You need to lay off the sauce.
Are you of the blood dripping dagger and hangman noose cockpit graffiti brigade?
Wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, I have a problem with that threatening graffiti.

Anyways, I take it that the union is in.
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straight2thepoint
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by straight2thepoint » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:56 am

It’s in and it’s been a nightmare with scheduling every since! Should have stayed with fair bidding. Rush to entry with new software, nobody is happy with schedule they get and the big selling point for a commuter schedule had no provision setup and ready when it launched. Already a “mass exodus” from YUL, more to follow particularly from the commuter group if it doesn’t get fixed ASAP
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hithere
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by hithere » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:21 pm

Do you even have an MEC yet? And I’m pretty sure You don’t even have a collective agreement yet. Your work and schedule rules will be written into the collective agreement. Once ratified then you can enforce the collective agreement with crew planning/crew scheduling. Until then aren’t you still operating until your same scheduling and working rules that you had before you agreed to join Alpa?
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rudder
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by rudder » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:39 am

Statutory freeze on WAWCON (whatever was in place on certification) applies until replaced by a ratified collective agreement, or conditions imposed by management upon strike/lockout.

SKY pilots have a couple of options with respect to where to go in respect of a collective agreement. Hope that all options are explained and examined.

Here is a hint - all of the GGN pilots will be working under the Jazz collective agreement by year end 2019 (as Jazz employees). What are the odds that the SKY pilots will be able to go from status quo to Jazz WAWCON at their local bargaining table with SKY management in Contract #1? Contract #2? Contract #3?

p.s. Jazz pilots use manual schedule construction with a pilot block builder assigned to each Position (Base/Equipment/Status). No problem for commuters to highlight to their block builder that a commuting schedule is required.
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Cavalier44
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Cavalier44 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:44 am

hithere wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:21 pm
Do you even have an MEC yet? And I’m pretty sure You don’t even have a collective agreement yet. Your work and schedule rules will be written into the collective agreement. Once ratified then you can enforce the collective agreement with crew planning/crew scheduling. Until then aren’t you still operating until your same scheduling and working rules that you had before you agreed to join Alpa?
No, we currently have an interim MEC - nomination of our elected representatives is taking place now with an election to take place shortly. Once that process is completed, the negotiation process should begin although it remains to be seen how long it will take before an agreement to be reached.

Unfortunately, in the time just prior to Sky officially certified under ALPA in Fall 2018, Sky management used some questionable "referendums" to push through changes to the TOE which were favourable to them but in practice have been detrimental to the pilot group. The introduction of so-called "seniority" bidding has been an absolute disaster, with so many caveats in the fine print with regards to the way we can actually bid that almost the entire pilot group has been feeling like we've been duped.

If you take the YUL Captains for example, we currently have a roster of ~55 individuals. When you have Captains in the top 30% still being forced onto reserve because of a flawed bidding system that heavily favours new-hires and training captains, you have serious issues that need to be addressed. Prior to the new system being implemented, a lot of the Captains who had been here long term were able to bid for a favourable schedule that allowed them to commute - now that's no longer a possibility, as you have almost no way to predict whether or not you'll be able to hold a block or be on reserve, regardless of where you fall on the seniority list.

We are seeing lately that the company is willing to exploit whatever "grey areas" they think they can find in the TOE, since we are beholden to the TOE that they've written and amended at their discretion up until this point. What we're being told by management is that if we have an issue with the way the company is interpreting the TOE, our sole recourse is to bring up our issues to our MEC and have them address the issues in collective bargaining. Basically, they're unwilling to extend an olive branch and try and fix some of the problems they have created with the implementation of "seniority" bidding; instead we're being told to put up or shut up which is creating an even more toxic relationship between the pilot group, management, and the crew planning/scheduling departments.

Unfortunately, I think our already critical staffing issues here are only going to get worse, as pilots simply aren't going to wait around for a year or more to see if ALPA will be able to negotiate a collective agreement which restores the scheduling system that they were previously able to rely on. Almost everyone that I know of in YUL has their application in at AC/SW/TS, even guys who were waiting to flow through to mainline are now saying they're willing to take the first job offer they can get just to get out of here. It's disappointing but I couldn't recommend in good conscience for anyone to come here at present, at least until a collective agreement is reached and the scheduling system is fixed.
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Negativefeather
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Negativefeather » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:02 pm

rudder wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:39 am
Here is a hint - all of the GGN pilots will be working under the Jazz collective agreement by year end 2019 (as Jazz employees). What are the odds that the SKY pilots will be able to go from status quo to Jazz WAWCON at their local bargaining table with SKY management in Contract #1? Contract #2? Contract #3?
Serious question not trolling. Wouldn’t sky pilots switching to Jazz WAWCON result in a pay decrease across the board for the SR pilots?
I understand Jazz benefits and conditions may be much better, but aren’t the first years pay at SR higher? (which I assume most sky pilots are on and jazz pilots will eventually be as management want it to no longer a career destination).
If I were SKY pilot I’d be more interested in keeping their WAWCON, might as well take the higher pay assuming most of them are hoping to flow to Mainline. The advantages Jazz has in WAWCON can’t be much of a benefit on a short term stay.
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av8ts
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by av8ts » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Negativefeather wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:02 pm
rudder wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:39 am
Here is a hint - all of the GGN pilots will be working under the Jazz collective agreement by year end 2019 (as Jazz employees). What are the odds that the SKY pilots will be able to go from status quo to Jazz WAWCON at their local bargaining table with SKY management in Contract #1? Contract #2? Contract #3?
Serious question not trolling. Wouldn’t sky pilots switching to Jazz WAWCON result in a pay decrease across the board for the SR pilots?
I understand Jazz benefits and conditions may be much better, but aren’t the first years pay at SR higher? (which I assume most sky pilots are on and jazz pilots will eventually be as management want it to no longer a career destination).
If I were SKY pilot I’d be more interested in keeping their WAWCON, might as well take the higher pay assuming most of them are hoping to flow to Mainline. The advantages Jazz has in WAWCON can’t be much of a benefit on a short term stay.
WAWCON is “wages AND working conditions.” Sky pilots may have higher starting pay but definitely not better working conditions. During a merge higher paid pilots wages are generally “green circled” or frozen til the pay scale catches up to them. Nobody takes a pay cut
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rudder
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by rudder » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:19 pm

Other than the year 1-5 FO pay, there is nothing at SKY close to what Jazz has for WAWCON. Then add benefits, expenses, etc. I don’t think anybody would be taking a pay cut if things were integrated.

The point to be made is what do the SKY pilots feel will be available to them at the bargaining table if they are dealing solely with SKY management?
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Negativefeather
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Negativefeather » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:57 pm

av8ts wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:21 pm
Negativefeather wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:02 pm
rudder wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:39 am
Here is a hint - all of the GGN pilots will be working under the Jazz collective agreement by year end 2019 (as Jazz employees). What are the odds that the SKY pilots will be able to go from status quo to Jazz WAWCON at their local bargaining table with SKY management in Contract #1? Contract #2? Contract #3?
Serious question not trolling. Wouldn’t sky pilots switching to Jazz WAWCON result in a pay decrease across the board for the SR pilots?
I understand Jazz BENEFITS and conditions may be much better, but aren’t the first years pay at SR higher? (which I assume most sky pilots are on and jazz pilots will eventually be as management want it to no longer a career destination).
If I were SKY pilot I’d be more interested in keeping their WAWCON, might as well take the higher pay assuming most of them are hoping to flow to Mainline. The advantages Jazz has in WAWCON can’t be much of a benefit on a short term stay.
WAWCON is “wages AND working conditions.” Sky pilots may have higher starting pay but definitely not better working conditions. During a merge higher paid pilots wages are generally “green circled” or frozen til the pay scale catches up to them. Nobody takes a pay cut
Thanks for the reply and info. I get what WAWCON means. I just mean we’re not talking a merger, it’s separate companies and employee group having contract negotiations. Jazz and Georgian are nothing more than competition to SR, with a common union representing their employees.
In a perfect world SR pilots could negotiate similar benefits to Jazz, but that’s doubtful on a first agreement as Jazz pilots have taken many years and contracts to get to that level.
Basically what I’m getting at is they should at least expect to keep their current pay or higher (which is more than Jazz in the early years) and work at getting the benefits there in contracts 1,2,3,etc.. There’s no reason they should expect to match Jazz pay, even though it’s to be expected SR will try for that.
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confusedalot
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by confusedalot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:16 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:44 am
hithere wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:21 pm
Do you even have an MEC yet? And I’m pretty sure You don’t even have a collective agreement yet. Your work and schedule rules will be written into the collective agreement. Once ratified then you can enforce the collective agreement with crew planning/crew scheduling. Until then aren’t you still operating until your same scheduling and working rules that you had before you agreed to join Alpa?
No, we currently have an interim MEC - nomination of our elected representatives is taking place now with an election to take place shortly. Once that process is completed, the negotiation process should begin although it remains to be seen how long it will take before an agreement to be reached.

Unfortunately, in the time just prior to Sky officially certified under ALPA in Fall 2018, Sky management used some questionable "referendums" to push through changes to the TOE which were favourable to them but in practice have been detrimental to the pilot group. The introduction of so-called "seniority" bidding has been an absolute disaster, with so many caveats in the fine print with regards to the way we can actually bid that almost the entire pilot group has been feeling like we've been duped.

If you take the YUL Captains for example, we currently have a roster of ~55 individuals. When you have Captains in the top 30% still being forced onto reserve because of a flawed bidding system that heavily favours new-hires and training captains, you have serious issues that need to be addressed. Prior to the new system being implemented, a lot of the Captains who had been here long term were able to bid for a favourable schedule that allowed them to commute - now that's no longer a possibility, as you have almost no way to predict whether or not you'll be able to hold a block or be on reserve, regardless of where you fall on the seniority list.

We are seeing lately that the company is willing to exploit whatever "grey areas" they think they can find in the TOE, since we are beholden to the TOE that they've written and amended at their discretion up until this point. What we're being told by management is that if we have an issue with the way the company is interpreting the TOE, our sole recourse is to bring up our issues to our MEC and have them address the issues in collective bargaining. Basically, they're unwilling to extend an olive branch and try and fix some of the problems they have created with the implementation of "seniority" bidding; instead we're being told to put up or shut up which is creating an even more toxic relationship between the pilot group, management, and the crew planning/scheduling departments.

Unfortunately, I think our already critical staffing issues here are only going to get worse, as pilots simply aren't going to wait around for a year or more to see if ALPA will be able to negotiate a collective agreement which restores the scheduling system that they were previously able to rely on. Almost everyone that I know of in YUL has their application in at AC/SW/TS, even guys who were waiting to flow through to mainline are now saying they're willing to take the first job offer they can get just to get out of here. It's disappointing but I couldn't recommend in good conscience for anyone to come here at present, at least until a collective agreement is reached and the scheduling system is fixed.
I am so sorry to hear that, especially from an outfit run by Russ Payson. The man ran some nice operations and the former sky service airline drivers had a really good gig. Nobody was looking to get out.

Things change I suppose.
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LGHeyyy
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by LGHeyyy » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:44 am
the entire pilot group has been feeling like we've been duped.
Whatever do you mean? Like the entirely false pretense wherein were all led to believe that the introduction of 4 day pairings would dramatically reduce working days? What an utter joke and total fabrication. That was the first time as an employee where I felt overtly like we were played like suckers and completely taken advantage of. The "leaked email" entirely confirmed that.

That was the real beginning of the alienation of the pilot group.

Never seen an airline before that seems like it's run by crew scheduling/planning.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Rainmaker » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:48 pm

LGHeyyy wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:22 pm
Cavalier44 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:44 am
the entire pilot group has been feeling like we've been duped.
Whatever do you mean? Like the entirely false pretense wherein were all led to believe that the introduction of 4 day pairings would dramatically reduce working days? What an utter joke and total fabrication. That was the first time as an employee where I felt overtly like we were played like suckers and completely taken advantage of. The "leaked email" entirely confirmed that.

That was the real beginning of the alienation of the pilot group.

Never seen an airline before that seems like it's run by crew scheduling/planning.
You got it. Not only that, but the majority of employees voted against the introduction of 4-day pairings. Despite this, management said "close enough", and went ahead with it anyway. Obviously their intent was to do this all along regardless of how the vote went, the vote was only to give pilots and FAs some illusion that they had "choice" over the way the company would go forward with the proposed scheduling changes.

What I really find infuriating is that there is zero culture of management accountability in this company. The introduction of seniority bidding has been a colossal failure - everyone I've spoken to has complaints about it, even those who at any other company would be enjoying the perks of their seniority. Morale is the lowest I've seen in four years at this company, and yet what we're being told is "our hands are tied - if you want any changes to be made, forward those concerns to your MEC." Now we're going to have to fight tooth and nail in collective bargaining to fix the scheduling system that the company f*cked up, and I have no doubt the company will try to use the current state of affairs to try and extract concessions elsewhere.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by LGHeyyy » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:08 pm

Rainmaker wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:48 pm

You got it. Not only that, but the majority of employees voted against the introduction of 4-day pairings. Despite this, management said "close enough", and went ahead with it anyway. Obviously their intent was to do this all along regardless of how the vote went, the vote was only to give pilots and FAs some illusion that they had "choice" over the way the company would go forward with the proposed scheduling changes.

What I really find infuriating is that there is zero culture of management accountability in this company. The introduction of seniority bidding has been a colossal failure - everyone I've spoken to has complaints about it, even those who at any other company would be enjoying the perks of their seniority. Morale is the lowest I've seen in four years at this company, and yet what we're being told is "our hands are tied - if you want any changes to be made, forward those concerns to your MEC." Now we're going to have to fight tooth and nail in collective bargaining to fix the scheduling system that the company f*cked up, and I have no doubt the company will try to use the current state of affairs to try and extract concessions elsewhere.

Exactly! People may not remember that buried in one of the emails regarding scheduling last year was a mention that the scheduling platform was going to cease to exist in the new year. Nothing to do with our "choices." Morale is indeed in the shitter and if there was a vote taken, nobody but the top 5 people in each department wouldn't vote to go back to socialized bidding, as long as they could keep reserve to less than a ridiculous 9 days a month... which had been happening far too often. Too many problems no matter what.
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iamthecaptainnow13
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by iamthecaptainnow13 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:28 am

delete
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rudder
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by rudder » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:46 am

With 60% AC flow and a minimum 80 76 seat Express fleet already locked up by Jazz for the next 17 years, that does not leave much room for SKY pilots to make demands. AC will ALWAYS want reasonable ability to hire OTS. I would guess that means NEVER going below the ability to hire 25% OTS.

If the SKY pilots want job security, a raise, decent work rules, benefits, pension, and 60% flow - then they should advance and support consolidation of the Express flying portfolio under just one operator.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Jetpilot350 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:48 pm

“iamthecaptainnow13”. I suggest you get your facts straight regarding ALPA at Skyregional. Instead of making false incorrect statements I suggest you contact your MEC Chair or a member of your bargaining committee. Your comments simply make you look like a fool to your fellow pilots at Skyregional who know the facts and are seriously following the bargaining for a collective agreement.

PS 13 ? Is that your age, grow up !!!!
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iamthecaptainnow13
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by iamthecaptainnow13 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:30 pm

deleted
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