Potential Strike Topic?

[dash8driver]

Was wanting to see what happened with the previous conversation regarding sky union negotiations and a potential strike? The conversation seemed to be productive.

[rxl]

Maybe because someone had tried to use the thread for their own political agenda?
I.e. The decertification of ALPA.

[timeflies]

they were too many truths in there, thats why it got deleted.

[radarvectors]

Too many truths and a mod that works for the company involved....

[dash8driver]

Sounds like Sky may very well be the new Georgian: With mods deleting topics and a management unwilling to negotiate with the union.
Hopefully the pilots have the same end result of going to Jazz.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Sounds like Sky may very well be the new Georgian: With mods deleting topics and a management unwilling to negotiate with the union.
Hopefully the pilots have the same end result of going to Jazz.

I'm not seeing several diversions a week due to maintenance issues yet, so I wouldn't go that far.

[rudder]

What SKY management is doing is telling new-hires that SKY will be adding 15 175’s.

Really?

Jazz will have 35 76 seat jets by December 2020. SKY currently have 25 for a total of 60. Does anybody believe that AC is planning a fleet of 75 76 seat jets? And if it is - how will they square the circle where Jazz is GUARANTEED a minimum fleet of 80 76 seat aircraft after 2025? Does anybody believe that there will be 100+ Express 76 seat aircraft after 2025, particularly once the A220 fleet is fully delivered?

Time for SKY management to come clean about the realistic expectations for the future. Near term (12-24 months) things are probably stable. After that, all bets are off.

Perhaps SKY management are uncomfortable with the idea of consolidating the Express flying back to a single commercial partner. It is a game of musical chairs and there probably won’t be enough chairs when the music stops playing.

[timeflies]

What SKY management is doing is telling new-hires that SKY will be adding 15 175’s.

Really?

Jazz will have 35 76 seat jets by December 2020. SKY currently have 25 for a total of 60. Does anybody believe that AC is planning a fleet of 75 76 seat jets? And if it is - how will they square the circle where Jazz is GUARANTEED a minimum fleet of 80 76 seat aircraft after 2025? Does anybody believe that there will be 100+ Express 76 seat aircraft after 2025, particularly once the A220 fleet is fully delivered?

Time for SKY management to come clean about the realistic expectations for the future. Near term (12-24 months) things are probably stable. After that, all bets are off.

Perhaps SKY management are uncomfortable with the idea of consolidating the Express flying back to a single commercial partner. It is a game of musical chairs and there probably won’t be enough chairs when the music stops playing.

they keep telling new hires that they may acquire E2's as well.

SKY Pilots want FLOW primarily- which is unlikely to happen. First officers with less than 2 years at JAZZ(any aircraft) are already getting the heads up from AC to apply when reaching minimums VS. Captains(only) at SKY after 3 years blocked at 90hr a month struggling to get a invite for an interview.

Consolidation with JAZZ is the only way if SKY pilots wants better conditions and move on to AC., but I am uncertain of their power to make this happen, the decision would come from above.

Even with a potential strike vote we all know how it goes in Canada (and how pilots look out for each others), arbitrator will be appointed and it will be the same old ,minus 1 or 2 things to make it look good. ie-Westjet.

now watch this thread get deleted 3.....2......1....

[radarvectors]

With a strong strike vote support, arbitration will never be on the table. To all the Sky Pilots, start showing your support, wear your blue lanyard (it is stronger than the company lanyard) and your volunteers will really appreciate the show of backing!

[rudder]

By the end of 2020, Jazz will have sent 1300+ pilots to AC since 2015 (PMLv1.0). What is the highest percentage bet to get to AC? Have a Jazz pilot seniority number. Jazz pilots own 60% of all AC new-hire vacancies until 2035.

If the goals of the SKY pilots are:

- flow to AC
- job security
- improved WAWCON

Then the vehicle that will achieve all 3 is Express consolidation under the Jazz banner.

I cannot imagine what it is that SKY pilots expect to achieve on their own at the bargaining table with a proxy management group. I picture the management negotiators taking a break after each session to call YUL to see what $$ they are permitted to spend and what AC flow offers they are permitted to make. And I also suspect that a constant refrain is a reminder of AC ability to early terminate the CPA.

The GGN pilots were ALPA pilots and got a DOH lifeboat courtesy of the Jazz pilots. I fully expect that the Jazz pilots view the SKY pilots in the same vein - peer ALPA represented Express pilots with the unfortunate circumstance of being in a separate and siloed operation with little or no bargaining leverage.

While I doubt that AC will accede to the final step of Express consolidation simply because the Express pilots desire it, there is a logical case to be made for why AC would benefit both near term and long term in returning to the single Express carrier model.

Only one Express carrier has de facto closed collective agreements to 2035. Only one Express carrier can guarantee labour stability (no strike/no lockout) until 2035. Only one Express carrier has a fixed cost CPA to 2035. Only one Express carrier offers 100% of the internal services necessary to relieve AC of supplementary operational and financial obligations. And only one Express carrier has a fleet guarantee of 80 76 seat aircraft after 2025.

Any external observer or MBA candidate would draw an obvious conclusion. It is the responsibility of the 2 remaining Express pilot groups to demonstrate to the ultimate decision maker why this final step is achievable without impediment.

[rudder]

re: Arbitration

Mandatory arbitration is NOT a part of the provisions of the ACT as they apply to bargaining in the Federal jurisdiction.

Arbitration to resolve outstanding issues in collective bargaining may only result from either:

1. consent from both parties
2. legislation

It is unlikely that parties would both consent to arbitration unless terms of reference for the arbitration were agreed.

It is unlikely that the Liberal minority Federal government (requiring support from another party) will intervene to keep 25 E175’s (less than 5% of AC total seat capacity) in operation.

A SKY strike is an inconvenience (for the travelling public) not a national emergency. It may however spell the end of the SKY CPA with AC.

It is more likely than not that SKY will no longer be required as an Express carrier post-2025. What is going on at the bargaining table in 2020 appears to be an exercise in futility unless it is an acknowledgement that the SKY operation will eventually be wound down and that it should be a priority to protect jobs either through flow to AC or transfer to Jazz.

[CanadianPilotQc]

To all Sky Regional pilots :

Time to put your balls on the table! Enough is enough. 3 and a half years(flying in the busiest airspace in the world) to flow is not what you signed up for.

I hope for you that AC notice the tensions and make Jazz the only express in the country.

[rxl]

To all Sky Regional pilots :

Time to put your balls on the table! Enough is enough. 3 and a half years(flying in the busiest airspace in the world) to flow is not what you signed up for.

I hope for you that AC notice the tensions and make Jazz the only express in the country.

I would add to this that now is certainly not the time to decertify as was talked about in the previous deleted thread on this topic. To walk away from the support, expertise and framework provided by membership in the largest pilots’ union in the world would - especially given the apparent intransigence of SKY management - likely set the whole process back another 3 and a half years. Who knows what the airline landscape will look like at that time.

[straight2thepoint]

they keep telling new hires that they may acquire E2's as well.

To be fair, the E2 was at their hangar October 1...

[rudder]

they keep telling new hires that they may acquire E2's as well.

To be fair, the E2 was at their hangar October 1...

And you think that SKY is buying/leasing the E2?

AC will be the party making any and all decisions regarding Express fleeting. And in the case of SKY, AC would have to finance any fleet acquisition. In the case of Jazz, CHR is able to acquire and/or act as principal lessee thereby keeping debt associated with Express fleeting off of the AC balance sheet.

Take a close look at where AC is with the Express fleet currently and that will help to predict the future.

Circa 2020, AC will be expanding the Express 76 seat jet fleet to 60 by adding 9 more CRJ900’s at Jazz. AC will be shrinking the 78 seat Express prop fleet to 36 by returning 8 Q400’s. Total fleet will be 96 76/78 seat Express aircraft.

The 175’s in service at SKY are the oldest production models from the first generation. Old engine. Old wing. Good for use on shorter stage length. The CRJ900NG while slightly less attractive from a passenger comfort perspective (although it is a 90 seat hull being operated with just 76 seats) but can fly higher, faster, further and do so at a lower unit cost. This dramatically expands the route possibilities for AC under the Express banner. Current CRJ900 routes flown within the AC system up to 1600nm. In addition, mainline will be adding a large fleet of A220’s which in some cases will be substituted on to existing Express routes. Therefore, in the near term (2020-2024) it is likely that AC will stick with its current Express 76/78 seat fleet or contract through removing older 175’s from the Express fleet.

The question is what happens post 2024?

Lead time for orders is typically in the 2 year+ time frame. Particularly for the E2. Therefore, likely that AC will have to make decisions by 2022 about replacing the 25 older Express 175’s, the 15 CRJ200’s, and perhaps even some of the older CRJ900’s. There are only 2 options - E2 or MRJ100.

AC will first have to decide how many Express 76 seat jets it needs in its broader commercial plan. In addition, AC will have to abide by its minimum fleet obligation to CHR through Jazz (minimum 80 76+ seat aircraft from 2025-2035). Then it will have to consider financing. Is AC willing to add $1B+ to its balance sheet on behalf of Express? Or should it partner with CHR?

The trend in the industry is clear - larger planes/fewer frequencies. And with pilot supply dwindling, the tier 2 fleets are contracting. Same at Express. At its peak Express had a fleet of 150 aircraft (B1900 excluded). It is looking like that total fleet could be 100 aircraft or less after 2025.

All of this should matter to any Express pilot without a job guarantee. Entirely possible that there will be only 1000-1200 Express pilot jobs after 2025 (down from a peak of over 2000). So while Express re-fleeting is an interesting discussion, it is the future role of Express and the associated commercial guarantees that should be more relevant to current Express pilots.

[FL-280]

Guys..... the 175 E-2 has a max take off weight of 91 491 lbs... scope clause is clear, its max 85 000 lbs. there is no way they could buy the e2 and operate it at express. This is pretty f*king basic...

[rudder]

Guys..... the 175 E-2 has a max take off weight of 91 491 lbs... scope clause is clear, its max 85 000 lbs. there is no way they could buy the e2 and operate it at express. This is pretty f*king basic...

Article 1

1.03.04.06 Medium Jet Aircraft (MJA) means a jet aircraft with a maximum certified seating capacity in excess of 55 seats but not more than 90 seats.

1.10.02.03 ......all CPA carriers may operate up to 60 MJA aircraft configured at a maximum of 76 seats inclusive of all classes.....

[FL-280]

Mixing up witht the US... in the US the cap is 85 000 lbs with most of the legacy carriers.
Thanks for looking it up

[rudder]

Mixing up witht the US... in the US the cap is 85 000 lbs with most of the legacy carriers.
Thanks for looking it up

Bingo.

I did not post all of the language but there is also an ASM ratio limitation and a fleet growth/reduction formula allowing for the 60 MJA fleet limit to vary.

From a scope perspective, AC could also look at the SpaceJet M90 for Express which looks to have a max capacity configuration (certified) of 88-90 seats (within ACPA scope limit) but operate in a 12J/64Y or 15J/61Y seating configuration but will have significantly greater range with maximum payload (2000nm) than the M100 (1200nm). The MGTOW 94,000 lbs is not limiting under the ACPA scope. My guess is that Mitsubishi will be giving them away looking for a North American customer (and CR loves to get aircraft available at steep price discounts).

[plhought]

You can't have a strike vote without some semblance of an agreement being presented to the pilots and voted on (ie: rejected).

To do so would be considered "bad faith" in the eye of the CIRB and is negotiating suicide in any future arbitration.

Sky MEC dodged a bullet this week....

[rudder]

You can't have a strike vote without some semblance of an agreement being presented to the pilots and voted on (ie: rejected).

To do so would be considered "bad faith" in the eye of the CIRB and is negotiating suicide in any future arbitration.

That is not even remotely technically correct.

Having said that, any decision on timing and circumstance of a strike vote is a strategic decision.

[timeflies]

If DEC's become available at QK pilot retention will become far more of an issue for SKV then a strike. Its possible SKV has FO's with enough experience to match the QK matrix to be considered for DEC and thereafter flow to AC.

100% indeed. and SKY management should be aware that DEC positions will be posted at JAZZ in the (very) near future. here goes (MORE) leverage to the pilots and SKV ALPA.

Reducing the matrix to be upgraded as a captain was a negotiation item for the new CBA due in the next weeks, but now it is an obligation or its a show stopper for this company.

And even there, I can't understand how a captain would stay at SKY when he will have the opportunity to upgrade to a better gig more secure, more comfortable, (considerably) more chance getting to AC and more all the things mentioned by the poster ''Rudder'' above. Even the senior guys, the top scale is higher at Jazz. I mean..

[derateNO]

If DEC's become available at QK pilot retention will become far more of an issue for SKV then a strike. Its possible SKV has FO's with enough experience to match the QK matrix to be considered for DEC and thereafter flow to AC.

I'd say most of them have more experience than half the Captain lists at QK.

If I were them I'd skip town to Jazz in a moment. Plus look how few people are getting calls from AC at SKR. It's like 1-2 every few months and often people who were Captains for a few years.

Go to QK, DEC do your two-three years and got to AC hopefully. If that's what you want.

[rudder]

A SKY pilot that moves to Jazz with an ATPL will be able to hold CA immediately, and would leapfrog hundreds of Jazz pilots in the flow deal that either do not have 2000 hours, do not have an ATPL, or both. However, I am guessing that AC will not be thrilled by an exodus from SKY to Jazz. Nor is SKY equipped to deal with the rate of attrition and retraining that Jazz is capable of accommodating. Hence, all that AC can do is order Jazz not to hire from SKY (not sure that would stand up in front of the CIRB).

I wish the SKY pilots luck at the bargaining table but the chances that they will end up with Jazz WAWCON is zero. And as for flow, Jazz has 60% and AC has made it clear that experienced OTS are critical to the operation so not sure what might be available there for SKY pilots (10%)? And what price would the SKY pilots have to pay for that 10%?

Continuing to run multiple Express airlines makes no sense. It requires extra AC resources. It creates redundancies at the Express level. It has already achieved the objective of lowering CPA costs and removing labour strife risk (Jazz).

From a pilot perspective it leaves the SKY pilots out on their own with no bargaining leverage as their entire operation could be replaced over time using Jazz/AC assets.

Status quo serves no one other than SKY management. It ensures that they have a job. But the tea leaves of the future are a smaller Express network with fewer airframes. Waiting until 2025 to consolidate (or eliminate) the Express players seems a pointless outcome. Eventually either SKY or Jazz or both are going to pick up the phone and say that they cannot staff 100% of their assigned flying.

Better that AC gets out front of this rather than deferring the inevitable. And better that the most affected constituents (the pilots) coalesce behind the best long term outcome.

[rxl]

It’s interesting to note that in the first annual review of the process, it was discovered that there is a deficit of 22 pilots in the number of new hires from Jazz by Air Canada to meet their commitment of taking 60% of all new hires from Jazz.
The expectation is that this deficit will be made up as soon as possible, there by removing 22 AC new hire positions from availability to “off the street” pilots over the short term.
The Jazz/Air Canada hiring arrangement is solid, being monitored and will be enforced. For those so motivated, there is no better route to a mainline job right now than through Jazz.