No guaranteed flow through?

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FL007
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No guaranteed flow through?

#1 Post by FL007 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:58 pm

Had a couple of friends of mine interview and were told there is no guaranteed flow through as of recently, one turned down the job due to it. Any truth to this?
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#2 Post by jjj » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Rubbish.

Stat freeze = no change.

Next question?
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#3 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:04 pm

I think there is truth in what the interviewer said. With two ALPA CBA's to negotiate, everything is on the table.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#4 Post by matthew.oommen » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:19 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:04 pm
I think there is truth in what the interviewer said. With two ALPA CBA's to negotiate, everything is on the table.
Flow through has not changed and there is no plan for it to get changed.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#5 Post by flyinhigh » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:10 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:04 pm
I think there is truth in what the interviewer said. With two ALPA CBA's to negotiate, everything is on the table.
While I tend to disagree with what NCP usually says, this one I do agree with to a certain extent. When it comes to flow, it is most certainly up in the air right now. Management will monetize everything when it comes to a contract, and you can bet your bottom dollar that this will be brought up.

Now is the flow dead right now. No it is not, nor will it be. If they took that away from the current pilot group, they will be having to find around 400 pilots on a mass exodus to big red, Transat, Sunwing, etc. Everyone was hired on this expectation, and most took the gig because of this.

As for the interviewers now. If flow was to disappear, after you are hired today you cannot say to anyone that you were expecting to go, when they said in the interview that there was no guarantee.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#6 Post by FL007 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:27 pm

flyinhigh wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:10 pm
NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:04 pm
I think there is truth in what the interviewer said. With two ALPA CBA's to negotiate, everything is on the table.
While I tend to disagree with what NCP usually says, this one I do agree with to a certain extent. When it comes to flow, it is most certainly up in the air right now. Management will monetize everything when it comes to a contract, and you can bet your bottom dollar that this will be brought up.

Now is the flow dead right now. No it is not, nor will it be. If they took that away from the current pilot group, they will be having to find around 400 pilots on a mass exodus to big red, Transat, Sunwing, etc. Everyone was hired on this expectation, and most took the gig because of this.

As for the interviewers now. If flow was to disappear, after you are hired today you cannot say to anyone that you were expecting to go, when they said in the interview that there was no guarantee.
Yes that's what I was thinking. Pre CBA pilots agreed to flow but current interviewees not guaranteed. Then of course after you apply to a position at encore and turn it down apparently your application cannot be accepted to any other position within WestJet (ie, mainline) for a period, a year? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Stops lots of guys with experience applying for DEC jobs that's for sure..

I could see them not guaranteeing anything with the uncertainty of the one list, being that two separate pilot groups are going to negotiating.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#7 Post by rudder » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:50 pm

The WJ and WJE are separate certification orders. There is no sustainable claim to be made on seniority rights in a separate bargaining unit absent consent and specific provision to allow for transferred seniority rights.

This matter is up to the WJ pilots. Having said that, I have not seen any public indication that they are looking to change the arrangement. But that was before the employer tried to subvert the WJ pilots rights to fly all 737’s using SWOOP.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#8 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:02 am

Rudder, how could WJ use Swoop to fly all WJ planes? WJ is transforming itself into a higher level service provider to its business customers. Swoop is an ULCC where passengers will be charged for everything. How can one be the other?
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#9 Post by rudder » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:35 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:02 am
Rudder, how could WJ use Swoop to fly all WJ planes? WJ is transforming itself into a higher level service provider to its business customers. Swoop is an ULCC where passengers will be charged for everything. How can one be the other?
The question raised above was the continued reserved seniority arrangement between WJ and Encore. Ultimately, the future of that arrangement rests solely in the hands of the WJ pilots in their upcoming collective bargaining.

The reserved seniority system is a tool that WJ uses to attract pilots to Encore in an increasingly competitive regional hiring environment. It is possible the WJ pilots will be less sympathetic to perpetuate that arrangement as they watch 737 flying being done by non-WJ seniority list pilots.

There is probably a more rational approach to be taken by a WJ management in respect of the SWOOP initiative considering the bigger and very real pilot labour picture.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#10 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:54 am

rudder wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:35 am
NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:02 am
Rudder, how could WJ use Swoop to fly all WJ planes? WJ is transforming itself into a higher level service provider to its business customers. Swoop is an ULCC where passengers will be charged for everything. How can one be the other?
The question raised above was the continued reserved seniority arrangement between WJ and Encore. Ultimately, the future of that arrangement rests solely in the hands of the WJ pilots in their upcoming collective bargaining.

The reserved seniority system is a tool that WJ uses to attract pilots to Encore in an increasingly competitive regional hiring environment. It is possible the WJ pilots will be less sympathetic to perpetuate that arrangement as they watch 737 flying being done by non-WJ seniority list pilots.

There is probably a more rational approach to be taken by a WJ management in respect of the SWOOP initiative considering the bigger and very real pilot labour picture.
So you're saying WJ pilots could penalize fellow WJ pilots (from WJE) because of the pilots at Swoop?

Well, I guess this is the ALPA playbook that you've been so much a part of all your life. Tragically, WJ pilots and WJ management are no longer on the same team, working collaboratively towards a common goal. ALPA would rather help our competitors (Air Canada and ULCC entrants) via a hiring blacklist and thus attempting to imperil WJ's financial and market postion, rather than working together with the company towards market strengthening. Indeed, they already had the IFALPA ban in place prior to meeting with the company.

Curiously, there is only one (to my knowledge) pilot at WJE who has stayed for longer than the mandatory perios prior to flowing to WJ or leaving for elsewhere. They all had sights set elsewhere. I think at least one of the ALPA OC members at WJE has even gone on to AC. Why they got sucked into certifying is beyond me. The best thing they could have done was keep working with their leadership towards getting the best possible deal with WJ pilots for flow and seniority position. They thought ALPA membership brought a guarantee of a reserved seniority number, or even a common employer challenge (the carrot dangled by WJ OC members), and now you, Rudder, have come along and burst the bubble.

Good luck to all junior pilots at WJ, both OTS and flow through. The opening moves are being made.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#11 Post by Mr. North » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:35 am

There are more than a dozen pilots who have delayed flow for whatever reason. Newsflash, every Encore pilot has their resume in at AC. An ALPA OC member leaves for AC? So what? So have several of your beloved WJPA members. People will continue to leave for AC, Sunwing, Transat until conditions improve. WJ had SIX MONTHS to improve upon things to keep us from certifying. Even with the risk to our seniority, it wouldn't have taken much to sway our young, keen group. But no, instead they fought us all the way on Stat pay and our annual 90% market median pay raise. Throw in never ending payroll mistakes, crewsched issues (loose interpretations of our agreement), and a couple widely known instances of heavy handed discipline and you've got yourself a solid majority looking for representation. You clearly do not know anything about the hard working pilots of Encore or why they joined ALPA. Your opinion that we would have been better off on our own is categorically incorrect and is a great example of your complete ignorance.

Normally I'm not insulted by ignorance but I am offended when you suggest Encore pilots were sucked into ALPA. It's a slap in the face to every Encore pilot who knowingly voted in favour not to mention all those who volunteered their time (and still are) to improve our working conditions and the profession as a whole. What exactly have you done?! All you do is wave around your T4 while picking apart the efforts of others. What kind of man does that? What kind of man has multiple personalities on an anonymous forum with the sole purpose of further dividing our group? You sir are one sad individual.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#12 Post by Bede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:26 pm

My hat's off to you Mr. North. Bang on.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#13 Post by flyinhigh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Mr. North wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:35 am
There are more than a dozen pilots who have delayed flow for whatever reason. Newsflash, every Encore pilot has their resume in at AC. An ALPA OC member leaves for AC? So what? So have several of your beloved WJPA members. People will continue to leave for AC, Sunwing, Transat until conditions improve. WJ had SIX MONTHS to improve upon things to keep us from certifying. Even with the risk to our seniority, it wouldn't have taken much to sway our young, keen group. But no, instead they fought us all the way on Stat pay and our annual 90% market median pay raise. Throw in never ending payroll mistakes, crewsched issues (loose interpretations of our agreement), and a couple widely known instances of heavy handed discipline and you've got yourself a solid majority looking for representation. You clearly do not know anything about the hard working pilots of Encore or why they joined ALPA. Your opinion that we would have been better off on our own is categorically incorrect and is a great example of your complete ignorance.

Normally I'm not insulted by ignorance but I am offended when you suggest Encore pilots were sucked into ALPA. It's a slap in the face to every Encore pilot who knowingly voted in favour not to mention all those who volunteered their time (and still are) to improve our working conditions and the profession as a whole. What exactly have you done?! All you do is wave around your T4 while picking apart the efforts of others. What kind of man does that? What kind of man has multiple personalities on an anonymous forum with the sole purpose of further dividing our group? You sir are one sad individual.
:prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :smt040
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#14 Post by matthew.oommen » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:59 pm

Mr. North wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:35 am
There are more than a dozen pilots who have delayed flow for whatever reason. Newsflash, every Encore pilot has their resume in at AC. An ALPA OC member leaves for AC? So what? So have several of your beloved WJPA members. People will continue to leave for AC, Sunwing, Transat until conditions improve. WJ had SIX MONTHS to improve upon things to keep us from certifying. Even with the risk to our seniority, it wouldn't have taken much to sway our young, keen group. But no, instead they fought us all the way on Stat pay and our annual 90% market median pay raise. Throw in never ending payroll mistakes, crewsched issues (loose interpretations of our agreement), and a couple widely known instances of heavy handed discipline and you've got yourself a solid majority looking for representation. You clearly do not know anything about the hard working pilots of Encore or why they joined ALPA. Your opinion that we would have been better off on our own is categorically incorrect and is a great example of your complete ignorance.

Normally I'm not insulted by ignorance but I am offended when you suggest Encore pilots were sucked into ALPA. It's a slap in the face to every Encore pilot who knowingly voted in favour not to mention all those who volunteered their time (and still are) to improve our working conditions and the profession as a whole. What exactly have you done?! All you do is wave around your T4 while picking apart the efforts of others. What kind of man does that? What kind of man has multiple personalities on an anonymous forum with the sole purpose of further dividing our group? You sir are one sad individual.
I couldn’t have said it better. The WJPA definitely did their best to improve conditions with the hand they had dealt to them. But not much a student union can do no matter how upset they are as long as mama bear calls the shots.

A lot of Encore pilots turned down jobs at little red (express carriers) to accept a job at Encore, because they saw something different in team teal and wanted to be a part of the energy and success. If Encore pilots didn’t care about change or the future of our industry in house, there wouldn’t be a vast amount of volunteers putting in the time everyday to make the working conditions better so that more aspiring pilots will want to fly at Encore.

The point is to use the pilot shortage and ALPA voice the pilots now have, to hopefully reduce (or dare I say eliminate) the never ending race to the bottom and make Encore a great regional to work at.
Just my two cents.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#15 Post by seriousflyer » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:14 am

Mr. North understands exactly the picture at Encore.
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Re: No guaranteed flow through?

#16 Post by flyinhigh » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:46 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:54 am

So you're saying WJ pilots could penalize fellow WJ pilots (from WJE) because of the pilots at Swoop?

Well, I guess this is the ALPA playbook that you've been so much a part of all your life. Tragically, WJ pilots and WJ management are no longer on the same team, working collaboratively towards a common goal. ALPA would rather help our competitors (Air Canada and ULCC entrants) via a hiring blacklist and thus attempting to imperil WJ's financial and market postion, rather than working together with the company towards market strengthening. Indeed, they already had the IFALPA ban in place prior to meeting with the company.

Curiously, there is only one (to my knowledge) pilot at WJE who has stayed for longer than the mandatory perios prior to flowing to WJ or leaving for elsewhere. They all had sights set elsewhere. I think at least one of the ALPA OC members at WJE has even gone on to AC. Why they got sucked into certifying is beyond me. The best thing they could have done was keep working with their leadership towards getting the best possible deal with WJ pilots for flow and seniority position. They thought ALPA membership brought a guarantee of a reserved seniority number, or even a common employer challenge (the carrot dangled by WJ OC members), and now you, Rudder, have come along and burst the bubble.

Good luck to all junior pilots at WJ, both OTS and flow through. The opening moves are being made.
NCP, you seem to be very in favour of swoop to help Westjet and your bank account prosper. If your so interested in this venture, why not join up as it is in your best interest that this goes.
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