Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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JBI
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Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

In frequenting this and other aviation message boards during my 20 years in aviation, I’ve often come across various posts (likely written late in the evening with the assistance of alcohol) of pilots venting their frustrations about their current employer with dire malthusian-like warnings. I do not intend for this to be one of those posts. Encore still makes the most sense for many of the pilots on property who will, hopefully, flow before 2022 (though I get the sense that most hope AC calls them sooner rather than later). However, as someone who has followed, written and spoken about pilot careers and advancement in Canada for nearly two decades, I would strongly encourage any new pilot considering a career at Encore at the moment to first consider one of the AC Express carriers, Porter, Calm Air or Pacific Coastal etc.

Don’t get me wrong, objectively, Encore is not a bad place to be. The crews are awesome and hard working and this post is not a slight at them at all. Flight Ops management at both Encore and WestJet are top notch (though arguably under-supported and under staffed by upper management). The planes are extremely well maintained and the flight benefits are really good. The commuting policy, for the time being, is arguably the best in Canada. This is not a general rant about how crappy things are. And indeed, I’ve been impressed by the current pilot group reps (both the previous WJPA and current ALPA) for working towards improving the working conditions at the company. There has been significant improvement from when Encore first started. When they’re not burnt out, I think its fair to say that most Encore pilots love coming to work.

However, right now the company is at a crossroads. As has been outlined in the pages of this forum, WJ mainline went through a long and divisive certification process. The pros and cons of this endeavour need not be discussed here. Nor, are the “would’ve, should’ve, could’ve” discussions at all fruitful now that certification has occurred (I do not mean to suggest that this can’t be explored at some other time). It is not a happy time for pilot-company relations at WestJet. Pilot morale is low.

If you come to Encore right now, you will NOT be getting the career you think you are getting. Think carefully about your reasons for coming to Encore. Career prospects have changed drastically in the last year. Career prospects for someone on the property who was hired last year are vastly different than someone hired today.

I will never criticize a pilot for taking a certain job. I don’t know your individual situation and one job may be a perfect fit for one individual though not for another. On the surface, why wouldn’t a 500 hour FO want to come to Encore? Good or better pay than what they have right now, a nice 78 seat turbo-prop and a WestJet ‘seniority’ number. Geez, if I had that option when I was 22 and had 500 hours I would have taken it in a heartbeat. But unlike when I was 22, there are a number of better options for 500 hour pilots these days.

Encore is not set up for a long term career if flow continues at its current place or slows further. The Encore pay scales and working conditions as originally negotiated are based on the philosophy that it will be a short-term stay until you flow up to the 737. Jazz on the other hand offers the potential interview for AC (granted it isn't flow), but for all intents and purposes, offers a pretty good career option for the long term. Seniority based bidding combined with better scheduling rules and a long term pay scale make Jazz a much better medium to long term career option for new 500 hour pilots.

Encore now has almost 500 pilots. Almost 250 of them were hired in the last year. Think about that for a moment: almost half the pilots have been on the property for less than a year. That’s 250 or more pilots that will have similar experience levels as you that will (probably) flow up to WestJet before you. In 2017, 79 pilots from Encore flowed up to WestJet before WJ stopped ground schools in August. Will there be more flow once WestJet starts getting 787s? Probably, but as they’ve shown with Swoop, the career progression of its Encore pilots is not something that upper management (not Flight Ops) is all that concerned about. When asked about it, the standard response from upper management is “trust us, we’re not trying to screw you.” (Actual quote). As Yoda says, “Do, or do not, there is no try” - I've been severely disappointed in how upper management has botched the Swoop roll out and tried to push it through without buy in from the pilots.

So, if on a best case scenario, WJ flows another 80 each year, that’s still 6-7 years for a new hire to flow. Encore’s pay scale only goes up to 5 years (with additional top ups above that rate, but not an actual rate) whereas Jazz’s payscale goes significantly longer.

Encore may be better than your current employment and I do not judge someone for improving their options. Just as I would not judge someone for applying to Swoop (though in my personal opinion it would be a foolhardy endeavour), Encore may still make the most sense for a particular applicant. But understand that you will work harder with a worse schedule and for, generally speaking, less money than at an AC Express carrier. While I do believe that flow will continue, it will not be even remotely as quick as in the past and I do not put it beyond upper management to slow things down even further to teach those insolent pilots a lesson for unionizing.

WestJet is not the WestJet of 5 or 10 years ago. For the most part, my friends working at AC and Sunwing seem happier than those at WestJet mainline. Is it still a good job? You bet! The crews that I work with are awesome people who do their job in a friendly, happy and professional manner. But so do the Jazz, Georgian, SkyRegional, Pasco and Calm Air etc. crews that I know. I do think things will improve. But I also think that it will take a few years and the realization from upper management that pilots are actually in demand. If you come to Encore thinking we’re all drinking kool-aid, holding hands, singing while we groom and waiting for a quick flow to WestJet mainline, you’ll probably be disappointed.
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Victory
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Victory »

How about some full disclosure? Are you perhaps a Westjet pilot that is worried Encore guys are going to Swoop in and take your job one day?
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Rezy
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Rezy »

JBI wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:19 am In frequenting this and other aviation message boards during my 20 years in aviation, I’ve often come across various posts (likely written late in the evening with the assistance of alcohol) of pilots venting their frustrations about their current employer with dire malthusian-like warnings. I do not intend for this to be one of those posts. Encore still makes the most sense for many of the pilots on property who will, hopefully, flow before 2022 (though I get the sense that most hope AC calls them sooner rather than later). However, as someone who has followed, written and spoken about pilot careers and advancement in Canada for nearly two decades, I would strongly encourage any new pilot considering a career at Encore at the moment to first consider one of the AC Express carriers, Porter, Calm Air or Pacific Coastal etc.

Don’t get me wrong, objectively, Encore is not a bad place to be. The crews are awesome and hard working and this post is not a slight at them at all. Flight Ops management at both Encore and WestJet are top notch (though arguably under-supported and under staffed by upper management). The planes are extremely well maintained and the flight benefits are really good. The commuting policy, for the time being, is arguably the best in Canada. This is not a general rant about how crappy things are. And indeed, I’ve been impressed by the current pilot group reps (both the previous WJPA and current ALPA) for working towards improving the working conditions at the company. There has been significant improvement from when Encore first started. When they’re not burnt out, I think its fair to say that most Encore pilots love coming to work.

However, right now the company is at a crossroads. As has been outlined in the pages of this forum, WJ mainline went through a long and divisive certification process. The pros and cons of this endeavour need not be discussed here. Nor, are the “would’ve, should’ve, could’ve” discussions at all fruitful now that certification has occurred (I do not mean to suggest that this can’t be explored at some other time). It is not a happy time for pilot-company relations at WestJet. Pilot morale is low.

If you come to Encore right now, you will NOT be getting the career you think you are getting. Think carefully about your reasons for coming to Encore. Career prospects have changed drastically in the last year. Career prospects for someone on the property who was hired last year are vastly different than someone hired today.

I will never criticize a pilot for taking a certain job. I don’t know your individual situation and one job may be a perfect fit for one individual though not for another. On the surface, why wouldn’t a 500 hour FO want to come to Encore? Good or better pay than what they have right now, a nice 78 seat turbo-prop and a WestJet ‘seniority’ number. Geez, if I had that option when I was 22 and had 500 hours I would have taken it in a heartbeat. But unlike when I was 22, there are a number of better options for 500 hour pilots these days.

Encore is not set up for a long term career if flow continues at its current place or slows further. The Encore pay scales and working conditions as originally negotiated are based on the philosophy that it will be a short-term stay until you flow up to the 737. Jazz on the other hand offers the potential interview for AC (granted it isn't flow), but for all intents and purposes, offers a pretty good career option for the long term. Seniority based bidding combined with better scheduling rules and a long term pay scale make Jazz a much better medium to long term career option for new 500 hour pilots.

Encore now has almost 500 pilots. Almost 250 of them were hired in the last year. Think about that for a moment: almost half the pilots have been on the property for less than a year. That’s 250 or more pilots that will have similar experience levels as you that will (probably) flow up to WestJet before you. In 2017, 79 pilots from Encore flowed up to WestJet before WJ stopped ground schools in August. Will there be more flow once WestJet starts getting 787s? Probably, but as they’ve shown with Swoop, the career progression of its Encore pilots is not something that upper management (not Flight Ops) is all that concerned about. When asked about it, the standard response from upper management is “trust us, we’re not trying to screw you.” (Actual quote). As Yoda says, “Do, or do not, there is no try” - I've been severely disappointed in how upper management has botched the Swoop roll out and tried to push it through without buy in from the pilots.

So, if on a best case scenario, WJ flows another 80 each year, that’s still 6-7 years for a new hire to flow. Encore’s pay scale only goes up to 5 years (with additional top ups above that rate, but not an actual rate) whereas Jazz’s payscale goes significantly longer.

Encore may be better than your current employment and I do not judge someone for improving their options. Just as I would not judge someone for applying to Swoop (though in my personal opinion it would be a foolhardy endeavour), Encore may still make the most sense for a particular applicant. But understand that you will work harder with a worse schedule and for, generally speaking, less money than at an AC Express carrier. While I do believe that flow will continue, it will not be even remotely as quick as in the past and I do not put it beyond upper management to slow things down even further to teach those insolent pilots a lesson for unionizing.

WestJet is not the WestJet of 5 or 10 years ago. For the most part, my friends working at AC and Sunwing seem happier than those at WestJet mainline. Is it still a good job? You bet! The crews that I work with are awesome people who do their job in a friendly, happy and professional manner. But so do the Jazz, Georgian, SkyRegional, Pasco and Calm Air etc. crews that I know. I do think things will improve. But I also think that it will take a few years and the realization from upper management that pilots are actually in demand. If you come to Encore thinking we’re all drinking kool-aid, holding hands, singing while we groom and waiting for a quick flow to WestJet mainline, you’ll probably be disappointed.
+1
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JBI
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

Victory wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 am How about some full disclosure? Are you perhaps a Westjet pilot that is worried Encore guys are going to Swoop in and take your job one day?
That's funny :lol: :roll: I hope you don't have ambitions of being a detective.
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Westofcywg
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Westofcywg »

Hardly a vetern of Encore JBI, you are 1 of the 250 that was hired I belive. I think you're in no position to actually say what a full career will look like at any airline or in fact any job anywhere. So stop scaring people off let them take the interview and ask the questions themself, you're wrong about flow also ,100% will be for 1st few classes this year or close as, and the agreement is 50% as a min as you well know. Also whole point of the 5 year pay scale is because they dont want you in Encore for 5 years and want you to flow as you become to expensive (and take a paycut to mainline).
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Last edited by Westofcywg on Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Westofcywg »

Westofcywg wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:48 pm Hardly a vetern of Encore JBI, you are 1 of the 250 that was hired I belive. I think you're in no position to actually say what a full career will look like at any airline or in fact any job anywhere. So stop scaring people off let them take the interview and ask the questions themself, you're wrong about flow also ,100% will be for 1st few classes this year or close as, and the agreement is 50% as a min as you well know. Also whole point of the 5 year pay scale is because they dont want you in Encore for 5 years and want you to flow as you become to expensive (and take a paycut to mainline).
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by indieadventurer »

Westofcywg wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:48 pmSo stop scaring people off let them take the interview and ask the questions themself, you're wrong about flow also ,100% will be for 1st few classes this year or close as, and the agreement is 50% as a min as you well know.
If I'm not mistaken it's a minimum of 50% flow over the life of the agreement not a minimum of 50% every class.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by bob99 »

JBI has it spot on.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by sstaurus »

The flow on that 'agreement' might as well be written on a napkin. Management will wipe with it as they see fit. Everything is up in the air, pun intended.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

Westofcywg wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:48 pm Hardly a vetern of Encore JBI, you are 1 of the 250 that was hired I belive. I think you're in no position to actually say what a full career will look like at any airline or in fact any job anywhere. So stop scaring people off let them take the interview and ask the questions themself, you're wrong about flow also ,100% will be for 1st few classes this year or close as, and the agreement is 50% as a min as you well know. Also whole point of the 5 year pay scale is because they dont want you in Encore for 5 years and want you to flow as you become to expensive (and take a paycut to mainline).
Westofcywg, thanks for your post. A couple comments.

First, I did not ever suggest I was a veteran at Encore. However, I am not one of the 250 hired within the last year.

With regard to my position to comment on aviation career prospects, I did literally write a book about pilot careers in Canada. It’s no New York Times bestseller but it has sold roughly 3000 copies over the past ten years. I’m in the process of updating it, so I’m happy to take constructive criticism (preferably by PM :lol: ) I’ve also been a speaker at a number of different aviation career expos and conferences over the years - haven’t been booed off the stage yet! You are correct though, I can’t actually say what a full career will be like but I think I’m pretty qualified to provide some pertinent thoughts on career considerations.

I agree, people should do interviews and ask questions. We’re in an awesome time where younger pilots with a bit of time will have multiple interview offers for regional carriers. I don’t think I’ve ever said don’t interview.

You and indieadventurer are correct, the current Encore agreement provides that Encore pilots will make up no less than 50% of WestJet new hires for the duration of the current contract (Jan 2016 - Dec 2020). I’ll be honest, I’m not sure the status of the flow numbers from Jan 2016 to now. However, I do know that in 2017, roughly 80 Encore pilots flowed to WestJet.

Edit: Droptanks made a good observation - I used the wrong fleet numbers for my calculations - I had assumed 145 tails in 2020, but that's actually the 2027 numbers. My conclusion that flow of a maximum of 90 per year between now and 2020 was too optimistic.

If there is at most only 3 or 4 more total tails by 2020 (assuming all 18 lease returns), there's no way flow will continue at 80 per year.
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Last edited by JBI on Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by DropTanks »

Hmmmmm, looking at the Q3 report the fleet plan shows the following....

2018 net increase of 4 tails
2019 net increase of 0 tails
2020 net DECREASE of 2 tails

That's just 2 New tails to 2020 assuming all leases are returned.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Loner »

Good read!
For the record, Encore doesn’t hire 500 hours pilots.
500 hours will get you “potentially” an interview
During which you are reminded that 1000 hours is required. I know a young lad who went through the process recently.
Anyhow, I strongly believe there will be some major restructuring in the sub-AC regionals.
Back in the late 80’s we had other issues to deal with and I wish I had today’s pilots problems lol!
It is nice seeing low time fellows getting their first break with first class companies 703/704 without having to be daredevils...
Let’s look at the half full glass and regardless of where new guys chose to go, there are worst places to be!
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by groundpilot »

Westofcywg wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:48 pm Hardly a vetern of Encore JBI, you are 1 of the 250 that was hired I belive. I think you're in no position to actually say what a full career will look like at any airline or in fact any job anywhere. So stop scaring people off let them take the interview and ask the questions themself, you're wrong about flow also ,100% will be for 1st few classes this year or close as, and the agreement is 50% as a min as you well know. Also whole point of the 5 year pay scale is because they dont want you in Encore for 5 years and want you to flow as you become to expensive (and take a paycut to mainline).
The Koolaid is strong here Skywalker.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

I don't mind if someone is WestJetty and loves the KoolAid. In fact, I enjoy that the vast majority of the crews at Encore and WestJet are just nice, fun people.

My concern with Westofcywg's post/attitude is that he/she has the same assumptions that most new hires will have. "well, of course we'll flow to WestJet nice and quick". I am extremely hopeful that that is the case. I would love it if WestJet announced that they've already converted the options on the next 10 787s and they're not going to return any of the 737NGs when the leases expire over the next couple of years. But, as droptanks outlines, right now, the advertised fleet plans for the next 3-5 years is very minimal growth. Yes, there will be some hiring with attrition the 787s, but is it enough to keep flow at higher levels than it was before? Does Westofcywg really think that WestJet will hire bewteen 500 (100% flow) or 1000 (50% flow) pilots in the next 5 years with almost neutral fleet growth?

Could it happen? You bet - there could be lots of growth or, heck, AC could hire way more WestJet pilots. But, I think that anyone considering Encore should not be focusing on flow, and more on what the everyday work at Encore is like month in and month out. As I said, it's not a bad place to work, but there are arguments to be made that some of the other regional carriers are a better option at the moment.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Jimmy2 »

You wrote a book on pilot careers and you work for Encore?
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by JBI »

Jimmy2 wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:26 am You wrote a book on pilot careers and you work for Encore?
Yup, I took ten years away from flying to be lawyer. Part of the conclusions in the book is to have a back-up plan and not make flying the whole purpose of your life.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by MedicineBuddha »

Hey JBI,

Great post I guess the grass isn’t always greener.

Out of curiosity ... What is the start pay/ pay progression/ per diems per average flying month at encore. I’ve been honestly wanting to do a good comparison..

Jazz starts at 34,700 per year ( before tax) per diems are around roughly 1100 per month. You can save a bit and attempt to pocket this..

Days worked 16-18 per month averaging around 7 legs per day flown. It’s possble to fly up to 90 hours / month on reserve.

When you become Captain anticipate slower movement as compared to being an FO with respect to your seniority.

AC mainline seems to be taking lots of guys from encore direct. ( it’s not a PML it’s a PIL - pilot interview list!! ) Air Canada does not owe you anything! PFO’s off of the PIL of course, is causing slowed upgrades, movement for Captains etc etc so if you are left seat / junior anticipate slower movement.

I also don’t know about the longevity of Express I’ve had guys at AC tell me there’s no job security whatsoever and to hope I don’t get a PFO or otherwise start looking elsewhere.

On the bonus side:

Flexible ish schedule ( think seniority)
Lots of bases
Excellent maintenance ( which you can get at a 703/704/705)
Amazing benefits for the guy with a family
Profit Sharing
Pension


How did it get to this level? And how is this continuing with the current hiring climate??

Ah, the million dollar question..
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by Adam Oke »

MedicineBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:23 am.....averaging around 7 legs per day flown.
Averaging 7 legs? That's a heck of a lot of work, if that's the average. What is the max number of legs in a day at Jazz?
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by MedicineBuddha »

I don’t know if there is !

There’s charters in the summer which are two leg gravy days out west.

However, by in large, If I’m doing day pairings on RES I’m around 7 legs flown per day with 15-20 minute turns . It could depend on the aircraft type and base though ..

I’ve been at 7 and been asked to tack on two more legs .. it happens

I’d imagine less legs for the RJ.. I can’t comment on the Q.

Some people bid continuous duties/ Reservr nights and they fly way way less legs.
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Re: Things to Consider if Considering Encore

Post by MedicineBuddha »

I’ll also add their Crew Sched department is extremely efficient. I’ve literally been scheduled within a minute of my max duty time.

Again, totally legal, but the company is trying to maximize Crew usage for sure.
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