How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

FL410AV8R wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:25 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:41 pm How dare you!

HOW DARE YOU!!

You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???

How dare you!

John
There you go jumping to conclusions. AGAIN. Names are posted on the ALPA forum so you know who posted the screenshot you obtained, you are assuming that he and I are one and the same. This may or may not be true as I have never revealed my identity on this forum.

Just because you think you are right does not make it so.

The assertation that you are the only person to see this correctly when just about everyone else disagrees with you including the legal department at ALPA is stunning in its arrogance.

Right back at ya. How dare you question my integrity when all you have done for the past number of years is to sow dissension and discord and played your anti-union fiddle.

We will all know in the New Year what the future holds and then maybe we can move forward.
Sorry dude, I never thought you were him. I just thought you were one of the rest of the pilots who didn't bother to check what would happen to the Encore pilots. My apologies for the outburst; I was paying for the winter tires I just had installed and the lady told me I have a gouge in one of the rear rotors. I'm over it, it's just money.

Now, on to why the MEC didn't bother to investigate further into the intricacies of the ALPA seniority list issue as it related to replicating the One List. I think the answer lies in this message from the MEC back in April. As Encore pilots are not on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List, they have no obligation towards them:


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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

BTW FL410AVR, any chance you had a counter argument? Maybe something from ALPA's Constitution and policies that help your contention that the WPDL could survive ALPA? My evidence is in ALPA's Constitution and in its Executive Board policies.

Yours would be...?
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Diadem
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Diadem »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:34 am I missed this paragraph earlier. It addresses the idea that ALPA could somehow approach the CIRB to reorganize the bargaining units after just having certified them. From Air Canada, 1999:

102 ... It is ALPA that organized and certified the bargaining units, and it is ALPA that negotiated the collective agreements. How can it now say that the very conditions it created have become harmful to labour relations? To the contrary, connector carriers have grown significantly since its pilots have been represented by ALPA, both in fleet size and the number of pilots employed. There have been no temporary or permanent lay-offs...
Having read through this whole ruling, my big takeaway is that the operators and ACPA opposed the merged seniority list; as I said before, it doesn't address the situation when the company and the MECs are all on the same page, i.e. if WestJet, the WJ MEC, and the Encore MEC all agree to a single seniority list, what impediment would there be in its implementation? Not only that, but I'd like to highlight this portion: it is ALPA that negotiated the collective agreements. ALPA had negotiated the collective agreements that were in place at the various airlines involved in the case, and had, therefore, previously established separate seniority lists. WestJet and Encore are not in that situation, as they are currently negotiating their very first CBAs, and are, from the beginning, attempting to establish a single list. If they already had CBAs that established separate lists, and then filed a grievance with the CIRB, it would be a more applicable case.
As for this:
If the WestJet Pilot Seniority List recognizes time at WJE, there would be no need for an LOU that relies on WJ's agreement. There would also be no need for the WJ MEC Vice-Chairman to be working to "cement the one list seniority concept", they would simply recognize the WJE DOH on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List! Therefore, I must conclude that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List does not recognize time at WJE for the calculation of seniority.
Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome. The way I read it is that the two MECs are presenting a unified front by sending a formal LOU, and even though we have no idea what the comany's position is, they could very well accept it without argument. The fact that they issued an LOU is not, in itself, evidence that the list has been formalized.
Based on the above, it seems like you think WestJet won't accept the One List, and that you're basing all of your assumptions on that premise. I, for one, don't think management is stupid enough to antagonize hundreds of Encore pilots in order to appease a few OTS hires and stick it to the MEC based on pedantic readings of ALPA bylaws.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Found the case I was looking for that spoke of pre-contract “privileges” versus collectively bargained rights that a union has a duty to protect. This in respect to right of upgrade to be determined by seniority.



After considering the decided cases and the collective agreement, it is our view that the latter theory should prevail. While we recognize the equities that have pushed arbitrators to extend seniority rights to non-bargaining unit personnel, it is difficult to escape the logic expressed in the Federal Wire & Cable case that seniority is a bargaining unit concept. Before collective bargaining employees do not have job security or seniority rights. Some employers may unilaterally grant priority to longer-service employees, but these priorities are privileges and not rights in an era of pre-collective bargaining. Once the right of collective bargaining is achieved, employees are entitled as of right, to the benefits of the collective agreement. These rights are achieved by bilateral negotiation and not unilaterally bestowed as a privilege.
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cloak
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by cloak »

So to summarize, you're saying that direct-hire pilots at WestJet would not be happy with the one list and since ALPA's mandate based on its constitution is to protect its own pilots (in this context pilots currently at WestJet), the one list will not endure. Also that it would have been possible to keep the one list under the previous regime but not with ALPA, is this the jest of your argument? Is Kaplan also deciding on this?
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

cloak, ya that about sums it up.

I don’t know if they’ve negotiated seniority yet. The current mainline list has DOH problems in some places unrelated to Encore. Even in the top 10 spots IIRC, there’s a guy who should be #1 if you go strictly by the listed DOH.

Like the case cited just above, everything prior to CBA doesn’t really mean anything. It was always management’s right to change or bestow. WJ would never knowingly violate the WJPA agreements, they treated them like contracts. They knew not respecting the terms would have invited unions on to the property, but more than that, I fully believe they wanted to do what was right.

This problem with the list will get solved now during the CBA arbitration, by following ALPA’s rules, or it will be solved by the CIRB later in arbitration or in court.
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flyinhigh
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by flyinhigh »

Oh dear gawd Shallow, i mean swallow.

1) Are you dyslectic? Serious question, you have so many handles on this site it ridiculous to try and keep up on.
2) Who the hell actually has a paper copy of the ALPA manual governing seniority? Especially when you have nothing good to say about ALPA.
3) If you're not concerned about the "one list" as it won't affect you, why the hell would you spend money to start a website to say your all F&*KED.
4) If it doesn't affect you, why in gawd's green earth are you siting on this site, spending hours posting Photos of all of ALPA's constitution.
5) Great work with the constitution which CANNOT be changed. Oh wait, I can carry seniority from Wasaya and Bearskin over to Jazz though which are ALPA. How's that?

My recommendation to you is since you have so much time off all the time, you might want to check this out.

https://www.lavalife.com/

Oh to save you time of searching and looking for me.

Peace Out,

Mike
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

flyinhigh wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:00 pm Oh dear gawd Shallow, i mean swallow.

1) Are you dyslectic? Serious question, you have so many handles on this site it ridiculous to try and keep up on.
2) Who the hell actually has a paper copy of the ALPA manual governing seniority? Especially when you have nothing good to say about ALPA.
3) If you're not concerned about the "one list" as it won't affect you, why the hell would you spend money to start a website to say your all F&*KED.
4) If it doesn't affect you, why in gawd's green earth are you siting on this site, spending hours posting Photos of all of ALPA's constitution.
5) Great work with the constitution which CANNOT be changed. Oh wait, I can carry seniority from Wasaya and Bearskin over to Jazz though which are ALPA. How's that?

My recommendation to you is since you have so much time off all the time, you might want to check this out.

https://www.lavalife.com/

Oh to save you time of searching and looking for me.

Peace Out,

Mike
Hi Mike,

I will ignore the ad hominem attacks because I think your anger towards me is rooted in fear that you might lose your seniority if the agreement is challenged.

I have not actually seen the agreement, any chance you can send it to me?

All I can say that if it violates the terms of the Constitution and the Executive Board policy on seniority, well, someone who is adversely affected by that might choose to sue ALPA. Why he or she might not have done so is likely out of ignorance of the law and ALPA rules. As you can see here, on this thread, no one has offered evidence as to why I am incorrect, they have, as you have done, just attacked my character.

A possible answer to why no one has bothered to sue ALPA over this Wasaya/Jazz agreement is that they may not plan in being at Jazz very long and don’t care where they sit on a list. In spite of what you may have read, there are many who may wish to stay at WJ and will fight in order to move up two hundred numbers.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

diadem, I just saw your post and will read it here on the beach in Cancun, and respond. Thanks for offering a thoughtful response.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:39 pmWestJet and Encore are not in that situation, as they are currently negotiating their very first CBAs, and are, from the beginning, attempting to establish a single list. If they already had CBAs that established separate lists, and then filed a grievance with the CIRB, it would be a more applicable case.
It is very possible that Section 22, Seniority, has already been agreed to and as per ALPA policy, defined seniority as commencing at DOH. At WestJet. If so, the seniority list naturally follows from that and will be DOH. If The MEC Negotiating Committee is not using “every means at its command” to achieve Section 22 as stated above, then they will be violation of ALPA Executive Board policy.

At the very least, by the end of December (if everything is on schedule), a CBA will be released by Kaplan. It will have a WestJet Pilot Seniority List attached. From that point on, in order to recognize the seniority of pilots at Encore, it will be necessary to either merge the lists or for the purposes of upgrade etc, use something other than seniority (because a new hire will go to the bottom of the WJ seniority list, as per Section 22 definition of seniority).

So I think, of those two possibilities, merger of the two lists, if WJ/WJE agree, is the only possibility. This begs the question: what does the WestJet Pilot Seniority List look like?

If the WestJet Pilot Seniority List recognizes the Encore DOH of Encore pilots who have already flowed, then a merged seniority list (by DOH) is not a problem, the pilots already flowed are where they were on the WPDL, i.e. above OTS pilots who have been at WJ longer.

So then, this may be the scenario that the former MEC Chairman may have been working on: a (non-DOH) WestJet Pilot Seniority List (ordered like the WPDL) to eventually be merged with an (DOH) Encore Pilot Seniority List.

In his Order of September 30, 2018, Kaplan makes no mention of how the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is ordered, referring only to a “position” on it.

So to address your statement in red above, the success of the WPDL-like seniority list (in terms of your scenario only) turns on WJ MEC negotiating for a non-DOH seniority list, implying they did not use “every available means” to achieve DOH, which will undoubtedly be challenged by OTS pilots as a Breach of Contract action.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:39 pmBased on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome. The way I read it is that the two MECs are presenting a unified front by sending a formal LOU, and even though we have no idea what the comany's position is, they could very well accept it without argument. The fact that they issued an LOU is not, in itself, evidence that the list has been formalized.
Based on the above, it seems like you think WestJet won't accept the One List, and that you're basing all of your assumptions on that premise. I, for one, don't think management is stupid enough to antagonize hundreds of Encore pilots in order to appease a few OTS hires and stick it to the MEC based on pedantic readings of ALPA bylaws.


I think you are right, and I was reaching. My apologies, I am not a lawyer. I was only the recipient of a merged seniority list position once before, and I have witnessed from a distance the legal nun fights that can follow mergers. Make no mistake, as “The Prince of Heavy Darkness” told me at Royal Airlines, “John, sometimes it comes down to one single number. You will love that number and you will hate that number.” He sat as next to upgrade FO for 7 years (IIRC) at Quebecair because of that number.

We need to get this negotiation right on the first try. Meaning, an unassailable decision, in agreement with ALPA rules. Obviously, as my colleague H. wrote on the ALPA forum, generally speaking, all WJ pilots need to know ALPA policy, as it is apparently a change from what we were used to. Lack of that knowledge may have been the straw on the camel’s back that took down the MEC Chairman.

I’m not sure if that answered your post, diadem, but it’s hot here and I’m behind in my German homework.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

But the former MEC Chairman did say that they hoped to present the details of the proposed LOU to WJ soon. He also said that WJ would have to agree to it. Am I reaching if I believe that this far in their negotiations, the status of Encore pilots has not been a topic of discussion? I don’t think WJ would agree to a non-DOH seniority list, without already having agreed to terms of the Encore pilots who have and will flow. Do Encore pilots simply go to 5 year mainline pay if they had 5 years at Encore?

I don’t think it realistic that the discussions have involved WJE (current or former) pilots. That wasn’t the mandate of the MEC. The MEC’s only obligation was to existing WJ pilots. If they bargained away anything from WJ pilots to achieve something for pilots in another bargaining unit, on the basis of one survey done before the Swoop situation, and whose results are unknown, well that’s not good politics. That gets you recalled.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

The following screenshot is from the ALPA Pilot magazine and the article heralds the new ALPA Merger Policy announced in 2009. I attach the screenshot to show you how powerful the Executive Board is within the organization. It tells the ALPA President what to do. So if the Executive Board says DOH on seniority lists, good luck to those who knowingly oppose that policy.



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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Why I think the WestJet Pilot Seniority List already exists: Kaplan already referred to it. He doesn't refer to a document that will be created. He talks as if it exists. At least one person has asked ALPA for a copy of the document (not me), and been met with a bit of a run around. I asked Kaplan for a copy of it, but his assistant said to contact WJ or ALPA as Kaplan was unable to directly communicate with me.

The existing WPDL has not been updated since August 2018, nor do I think it will ever be updated again. It has no further utility.



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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

I believe the Interim Order of June 8, 2018, from Kaplan to be very instructive. It says that any pilots hired at WestJet (mainline) after the Swoop pilots were integrated on to the WestJet Pilot Seniority List will be placed on the list by their Date Of Hire. He does not make any mention of a WPDL or Encore. I don't know if there were any Encore pilots who were hired at WJ after 8 June, 2018, but by order of Kaplan, they were placed on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List by their DOH. Kaplan MUST mean DOH at WJ, otherwise he would have clarified this issue.

I think the nail is in the coffin on any possible hope that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is something other than WJ (mainline) DOH. Certainly ALPA has known since June 8, 2018 how the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is ordered.




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Last edited by The Tenth Man on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
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Diadem
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Diadem »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
That's not new information. That doesn't confirm anything. As I said previously, an arbitrator is unlikely to refuse a clause in the CBA if all parties agree to it, so if management and the MEC decide that the list stands as it is, an interim order from five months ago, at the beginning of the negotiations, may have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of the list. Note that Kaplan originally ordered Swoop pilots could remain in the positions into which they were hired, but voila! He changed that ruling and declared the positions will be held based on seniority. It's almost like you shouldn't be assuming anything until the CBA is ratified!
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:21 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
That's not new information. That doesn't confirm anything. As I said previously, an arbitrator is unlikely to refuse a clause in the CBA if all parties agree to it, so if management and the MEC decide that the list stands as it is, an interim order from five months ago, at the beginning of the negotiations, may have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of the list. Note that Kaplan originally ordered Swoop pilots could remain in the positions into which they were hired, but voila! He changed that ruling and declared the positions will be held based on seniority. It's almost like you shouldn't be assuming anything until the CBA is ratified!
I think what you suggest just isn't reasonable. If the issue of seniority was settled prior to the June 8, 2018 order by Kaplan, where Swoop pilots where placed on the WPSL by DOH, and pilots (including those from Encore) hired at WJ subsequent to that date were placed on the WPSL by DOH, then I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened, and that a mediator would recommend expending energy on something already settled. There were far bigger fish to fry for both parties. That, and the Negotiating Committee had no duty to Encore pilots.

Be that as it may, if this issue in any way affects your career progression, then make your career choices as best you can with the information you have in hand.

Good luck.

P.S. The seniority issue (Article 22 in CBA, and list formation) MUST have been settled prior to Kaplan's order of June 8. Otherwise, there would have been no list (WPSL) to which Kaplan could have added the Swoop pilots.
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