How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

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hurtin'albertan
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:18 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
Where does it go John? When it comes to pass that the one list and flow can live on as it does today, will you challenge it, just to try and prove that your "efforts" here weren't wasted? (I think you would fail in any challenge though, anyway).

Are you so anti-alpa/anti-union that you would attempt to cause chaos and destruction (on a real scale, not just via internet trolling) just to prove a point and stroke your own narcissism? This is the root of the issue, isn't it? Feeding John's ego?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:24 am
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:18 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm

It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
Where does it go John? When it comes to pass that the one list and flow can live on as it does today, will you challenge it, just to try and prove that your "efforts" here weren't wasted? (I think you would fail in any challenge though, anyway).

Are you so anti-alpa/anti-union that you would attempt to cause chaos and destruction (on a real scale, not just via internet trolling) just to prove a point and stroke your own narcissism? This is the root of the issue, isn't it? Feeding John's ego?
No my friend.

It won't be me challenging anything in court. I'm not a member of ALPA (and likely will end my employment at WJ not being a member), and as such would have no standing to bring an action against ALPA for a constitutional breach of a member's rights.

I'm curious though.

hurtin' albertan, has it never caused you any concern that you have not had a rebuttal to any of the legal arguments I have levied? Aren't you just a little bit worried that you're not up to the task intellectually?

Additionally, I get it that you have strong personal feelings against me, and as such you are chomping at the bit to see me proved wrong, as you admitted above. Might I inquire as to what your emotions will be if I am proven right (starting with (a) the definition of seniority in Section 22 in the CBA, and (b) a DOH ordered seniority list)?

Cheers

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Diadem »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:28 am I think what you suggest just isn't reasonable. If the issue of seniority was settled prior to the June 8, 2018 order by Kaplan, where Swoop pilots where placed on the WPSL by DOH, and pilots (including those from Encore) hired at WJ subsequent to that date were placed on the WPSL by DOH, then I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened, and that a mediator would recommend expending energy on something already settled. There were far bigger fish to fry for both parties. That, and the Negotiating Committee had no duty to Encore pilots.

Be that as it may, if this issue in any way affects your career progression, then make your career choices as best you can with the information you have in hand.

Good luck.

P.S. The seniority issue (Article 22 in CBA, and list formation) MUST have been settled prior to Kaplan's order of June 8. Otherwise, there would have been no list (WPSL) to which Kaplan could have added the Swoop pilots.
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:04 am I believe the Interim Order of June 8, 2018, from Kaplan to be very instructive. It says that any pilots hired at WestJet (mainline) after the Swoop pilots were integrated on to the WestJet Pilot Seniority List will be placed on the list by their Date Of Hire. He does not make any mention of a WPDL or Encore. I don't know if there were any Encore pilots who were hired at WJ after 8 June, 2018, but by order of Kaplan, they were placed on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List by their DOH. Kaplan MUST mean DOH at WJ, otherwise he would have clarified this issue.

I think the nail is in the coffin on any possible hope that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is something other than WJ (mainline) DOH. Certainly ALPA has known since June 8, 2018 how the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is ordered.





ALPA_Kaplan_Interim_Order_June_8_2018_p4_JPEG_LI.jpg
Sorry, I didn't think this was necessary before:
Adjective
interim
1. transitional
2. temporary
Nothing is settled until the CBA is agreed to by both parties. This is an interim, and can be changed by ongoing negotiations, or even Mr Kaplan's whims, at any time. You tend to draw strong conclusions from weak inferences, and your arguments tend to rely on a deluge of verbosity rather than any real logic. As I've said numerous times before, we can't even begin discussing the fine details of the CBA when negotiations are still ongoing, and the whole thing is going to be up in the air for a while; as I've said, I don't think anything will be settled until an OTS pilot takes their case to the CIRB, assuming anyone does. As you pointed out above,
I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened
, it is merely your belief. Why wouldn't it be reasonable? If the WestJet MEC didn't think that the issue was settled, then certainly they would have sought to re-open the issue, and considering that the order you quoted above was an interim order, I don't believe the issue was settled in the first place, particularly considering it was something like three weeks after negotiations began!
I don't even work for WestJet, but I thought I would take an opposing view simply because it annoys me to no end that you've bombarded this site with posts that are often lacking in coherence and arguments that are hard to follow. The whole subject is impossible to argue, because we don't even know what the CBA will look like, so it's all an act of futility! The MEC could offer compensation to any OTS pilots passed over for an upgrade because Encore pilots were given seniority over them, but we can't know that until the CBA is released. Your wallpapering of Avcanada with endless posts is irritating, and ultimately pointless. I don't know whether you hate ALPA or the pilots who voted for unionization more, but it just seems like petty shit-stirring out of spite; I don't know whether you're trying to push for decertification, or just finding a way to punish Encore pilots for having the gall to unionize, since you couldn't figure out a way to punish WestJet pilots.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:00 pmSorry, I didn't think this was necessary before:
Adjective
interim
1. transitional
2. temporary
Nothing is settled until the CBA is agreed to by both parties. This is an interim, and can be changed by ongoing negotiations, or even Mr Kaplan's whims, at any time. You tend to draw strong conclusions from weak inferences, and your arguments tend to rely on a deluge of verbosity rather than any real logic. As I've said numerous times before, we can't even begin discussing the fine details of the CBA when negotiations are still ongoing, and the whole thing is going to be up in the air for a while; as I've said, I don't think anything will be settled until an OTS pilot takes their case to the CIRB, assuming anyone does. As you pointed out above,
I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened
, it is merely your belief. Why wouldn't it be reasonable? If the WestJet MEC didn't think that the issue was settled, then certainly they would have sought to re-open the issue, and considering that the order you quoted above was an interim order, I don't believe the issue was settled in the first place, particularly considering it was something like three weeks after negotiations began!
I don't even work for WestJet, but I thought I would take an opposing view simply because it annoys me to no end that you've bombarded this site with posts that are often lacking in coherence and arguments that are hard to follow. The whole subject is impossible to argue, because we don't even know what the CBA will look like, so it's all an act of futility! The MEC could offer compensation to any OTS pilots passed over for an upgrade because Encore pilots were given seniority over them, but we can't know that until the CBA is released. Your wallpapering of Avcanada with endless posts is irritating, and ultimately pointless. I don't know whether you hate ALPA or the pilots who voted for unionization more, but it just seems like petty shit-stirring out of spite; I don't know whether you're trying to push for decertification, or just finding a way to punish Encore pilots for having the gall to unionize, since you couldn't figure out a way to punish WestJet pilots.
Hi diadem, I appreciate the time you have taken to formulate a response.

Now, to clarify: do you believe that Encore pilots who flowed after the June 8, 2018 Interim Order, were NOT added to the bottom of the WestJet Pilot Seniority List (WPSL)? Meaning, do you think that the Encore pilots who flowed after that date were placed on the WPSL at a place somewhere other than at the BOTL?

To address your issues with the number or content of my posts, may I suggest you direct your efforts to the owner of this website, or his designated moderators? I donated $100 (Canadian) to Joe last week so my conscience is clear on using bandwidth.

As to my motives in returning to the theme of the extinct WPDL, well, in essence it has to do with the truth. Unfortunately, some will feel hurt with my returning to the truth from time to time. I am not responsible for anyone's feelings, including yours. If you don't like what I write, or feel offended by it, you may exercise self-restraint in not visiting this thread, or this website. I certainly disregard all attempts to question my motives or to question my character. For some reason, the opinion of my peers factors very little, if not at all, in my generally happy outlook on life.

To be very clear, I sense that an end run around the truth is going to be attempted by ALPA as they, the members of the MEC (new), attempt to re-direct blame for the demise of the WPDL. That said, they have not as of yet committed to bringing to the company the LOU proposed by the previous MEC. We don't now if they ever will. It may be the case that the premature communication of Nov 2, 2018 by the outgoing MEC Chairman ruffled a few feathers, some from as far away as Herndon. Whatever the case, the WJ MEC defines "transparency" in a manner at odds with my understanding of the word.

Cheers

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:39 pm
...as I said before, it doesn't address the situation when the company and the MECs are all on the same page, i.e. if WestJet, the WJ MEC, and the Encore MEC all agree to a single seniority list, what impediment would there be in its implementation?...
Diadem, I forgot to address the above statement of yours. The important party you left out in the above statement is ALPA. The MEC's on their own are not the bargaining agents for the pilots, ALPA is. ALPA alone can approve a merger of the seniority lists (along with the Company, and/or the CIRB). The MEC's cannot initiate a single seniority list attempt; they can only negotiate the ordering of the Integrated Seniority List, subject to ALPA Merger Policy. The approval of the President of ALPA is necessary for any such venture, and absent his approval, no single seniority list is possible.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

DropTanks wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:54 pm Dude, you’re smarter than this. All the agents you are speaking for (ALPA, The President of ALPA, the MEC) have all stated that the one list is alive and well as far as they’re concerned. Just the company remains.
Can you imagine the courage it takes to persist in the dogged defense of the truth when one is that lone voice in the wilderness? Staggering.

That said, apart from the ad hominem attacks, the only proof that you offer that I'm wrong is that there is no way everyone else can be wrong. Sounds like the thinking that marched everyone to the brink in the economic collapse of 2008.

No sir, I am right. Of that I have no doubt. I'm okay with that.

And it doesn't strike you as concerning that almost no one has offered any counter to the legal arguments I have offered. Right then and there you know there is a problem...

Cheers,

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Weekend's over. Off to the rock for 30 hours.

TTFN
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

I do not believe I have posted this excerpt here on AvCanada. Although it is not determinative of any particular issue in the WPDL story, it does provide good background on the CIRB's view of seniority. It is lifted from yet another case before the CIRB that resulted from the Air Canada/Canadian Airlines merger.




[91] Seniority rights represent a guarantee of economic security and job stability for employees who benefit from them. One of the primary reasons for including seniority rights provisions in a collective agreement is to protect employees in the bargaining unit against arbitrariness by management. Seniority rights ensure that an objective standard is applied when determining employment status. Indeed, seniority rights have such an influence on an employee’s status and economic interest that they are considered to be an “earned benefit” (M. Kaye Joachim, “Seniority Rights and the Duty to Accommodate,” (1998), 24 Queen’s L.J. 131, paragraph 26).

[92] Normally, the employee’s date of hire or the date the probation period is completed determines the order of names on a seniority list. Usually the collective agreement indicates how this determination is to be made. The seniority list reflects the employee’s amount of continuous service at the workplace. Unless something unusual happens, such as a merger, the employee’s place on the seniority list does not change until the employment relationship ends. Seldom, if ever, is one’s position on the seniority list changed as a result of collective bargaining. It is the employee’s place on the seniority list that determines entitlement to seniority-related rights and benefits. It is the seniority-related rights and benefits, not the employee’s ranking on the seniority list itself, that are routinely negotiated by the collective agreement parties.


ALPA_2006canlii62910_p24_JPEG.jpg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Rezy »

The one list is still alive and well and was upheld with the bids from early November as encore pilots were awarded positions based on their seniority. All the theories involving Kaplan and him changing the list are not true because even after his interim order(s) the one list has been maintained. So he did not and has not changed it.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Rezy wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:05 pm The one list is still alive and well and was upheld with the bids from early November as encore pilots were awarded positions based on their seniority. All the theories involving Kaplan and him changing the list are not true because even after his interim order(s) the one list has been maintained. So he did not and has not changed it.
Rezy, while the statutory freeze is in operation, working conditions will remain as they were prior to the commence of collective bargaining towards a new contract, unless changes are agreed by the company and the bargaining agent. What will happen as of the instant that the CBA is released by Kaplan, is the flow agreement from WJE to WJ will no longer be in operation as regards pilots keeping their WJE DOH for the purposes of position and base assignments, as WJ pilots will be governed by an ALPA CBA with a DOH seniority clause and seniority list in its CBA. WJE will avail itself of the force majeure clause in the WJE pilot agreement to escape liability for being unable to satisfy it the DOH obligation to WJE pilots with respect to flow to mainline.

So yes, when I said the WPDL was dead, that was a rehortical flourish. Pilots are still flowing to WJ in order of their WJE DOH. According to Kaplan the CBA will be released by the end of the year. At that time, all former WJE pilots then at WJ will find themselves on a WestJet Pilot Seniority List at a position dictated by the date they commenced employment at WJ (mainline). The WJE pilots who have not flowed will not appear on that list until they flow to WJ.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Further support for the contention that the Seniority article (22) of the CBA has reached the TA stage. As Kaplan noted in his Interim Order of June 8, 2018, the parties reached an agreement on May 25, 2018 regarding a process to reach a CBA. He further noted that both parties had highlighted an urgent issue needing addressing: the integration of the Swoop pilots onto the seniority list. This would imply that Seniority for WJ pilots had already been addressed.

This would be in agreement with the Negotiation Update of May 8, 2018, some 17 days prior to the meeting of May 25. In this update, the Seniority section had reached the "Language Finalized" stage. Regarding those 9 articles that had reached the "Language Finalized" stage, the NC said, ". For those 9 articles, we are awaiting further discussion on scope, compensation, and/or benefits which will affect them. Please view the table below to see the current status of all the contract articles."

It is unlikely that Seniority would have been re-opened during the mediation/arbitration protocol that followed the atmosphere surrounding the strike vote that led to the imposition of the mediation/arbitration. As previously stated, the June 8 order from Kaplan states any pilots hired at WJ subsequent to the Swoop pilots integration on to the WPSL would be added to the list behind the Swoop pilots at the BOTL by DOH.

ALPA_WJA_MEC Negotiations 20180508_p2_JPEG_LI.jpg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Bede »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:49 am
Rezy wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:05 pm The one list is still alive and well and was upheld with the bids from early November as encore pilots were awarded positions based on their seniority. All the theories involving Kaplan and him changing the list are not true because even after his interim order(s) the one list has been maintained. So he did not and has not changed it.
Rezy, while the statutory freeze is in operation, working conditions will remain as they were prior to the commence of collective bargaining towards a new contract, unless changes are agreed by the company and the bargaining agent. What will happen as of the instant that the CBA is released by Kaplan, is the flow agreement from WJE to WJ will no longer be in operation as regards pilots keeping their WJE DOH for the purposes of position and base assignments, as WJ pilots will be governed by an ALPA CBA with a DOH seniority clause and seniority list in its CBA. WJE will avail itself of the force majeure clause in the WJE pilot agreement to escape liability for being unable to satisfy it the DOH obligation to WJE pilots with respect to flow to mainline.

So yes, when I said the WPDL was dead, that was a rehortical flourish. Pilots are still flowing to WJ in order of their WJE DOH. According to Kaplan the CBA will be released by the end of the year. At that time, all former WJE pilots then at WJ will find themselves on a WestJet Pilot Seniority List at a position dictated by the date they commenced employment at WJ (mainline). The WJE pilots who have not flowed will not appear on that list until they flow to WJ.
When the CBA is released and you are proved wrong, will you admit defeat or are you going to keep this nonsense up indefinitely? You started this topic claiming that only your own made up union could protect the one list. Then you said ALPA wouldn't keep the one list. Then when ALPA said they were honoring the one list, you claimed that ALPA was acting against their own constitution. Now you're back to claiming that the one list was temporary and the final CBA will get rid of the one list.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Maritimer »

To any non WJ employee bored enough to continue to read this thread here's the facts we know for certain so far:

1. The MEC has committed to keeping the one list.
2. A LOU was sent in to WJ management regarding the desire to maintain the one list.
3. WJ management has yet to publicly comment.
4. It is completely up to WJ management if the one list is maintained or not.

Enough said, can we please wait for all this to be finalized before continuing this pointless argument?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Rezy »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:49 am
Rezy wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:05 pm The one list is still alive and well and was upheld with the bids from early November as encore pilots were awarded positions based on their seniority. All the theories involving Kaplan and him changing the list are not true because even after his interim order(s) the one list has been maintained. So he did not and has not changed it.
Rezy, while the statutory freeze is in operation, working conditions will remain as they were prior to the commence of collective bargaining towards a new contract, unless changes are agreed by the company and the bargaining agent. What will happen as of the instant that the CBA is released by Kaplan, is the flow agreement from WJE to WJ will no longer be in operation as regards pilots keeping their WJE DOH for the purposes of position and base assignments, as WJ pilots will be governed by an ALPA CBA with a DOH seniority clause and seniority list in its CBA. WJE will avail itself of the force majeure clause in the WJE pilot agreement to escape liability for being unable to satisfy it the DOH obligation to WJE pilots with respect to flow to mainline.

So yes, when I said the WPDL was dead, that was a rehortical flourish. Pilots are still flowing to WJ in order of their WJE DOH. According to Kaplan the CBA will be released by the end of the year. At that time, all former WJE pilots then at WJ will find themselves on a WestJet Pilot Seniority List at a position dictated by the date they commenced employment at WJ (mainline). The WJE pilots who have not flowed will not appear on that list until they flow to WJ.
The interim order changed the statutory freeze....that’s why it’s an interim order. The interim order has not changed the one list or flow, as you have suggested. Otherwise, it would already be changed...because it’s an interim order.

The flow agreement is also in the WJE agreement, which is under statutory freeze and must be honoured by the company, regardless of what Kaplan says or does, as he has no authority (currently) over the WJE work rules. He could do what he did with Swoop and make Encore common employer, then he could rule on the Encore work agreement...but as of today he has no authority to do so. So flow will stay after the CBA.

Seniority at WJ being honored by WJE DOH is currently being accomplished through a LOU of which you are already aware.

Flow and seniority are not mutually exclusive to one another (I know your aware of this, but for others reading). It’s in everyone’s interest to have seniority sorted out before the final arbitration award in late December and it seems as though ALPA and the company are currently hard at work getting that mutually beneficial agreement on paper.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Lots of incorrect ideas in the preceding posts, give me a couple of hours to get back to you in a more fulsome, transparent manner.

Short version: a one list attempt would violate ALPA rules, and be actionable via a breach of contract filing against ALPA.

If Seniority in Section 22 is defined as DOH, but the Seniority List is not DOH, a WJ pilot would have 90 days to file a DFR claim at CIRB.

Gotta run!

Johnny
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Bede wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:21 am When the CBA is released and you are proved wrong, will you admit defeat or are you going to keep this nonsense up indefinitely? You started this topic claiming that only your own made up union could protect the one list. Then you said ALPA wouldn't keep the one list. Then when ALPA said they were honoring the one list, you claimed that ALPA was acting against their own constitution. Now you're back to claiming that the one list was temporary and the final CBA will get rid of the one list.
Francis, let's clarify the facts:

If I said that only OLPA (the One List Pilot Association) could keep the One list in operation in a certified environment, I misspoke. Besides OLPA, also UNIFOR, CUPE, IAMAW, and pretty much every other union on the planet could maintain the One List. The problem is that because ALPA is uniquely an airline pilot union (at one time it represented FA's), it has tailored its constitution and policies to airline pilot interests. One of these is seniority. As has been repeated ad nauseum in these threads, seniority is of more importance to an airline pilot than any other occupation. Another concept that is of unique importance to an airline pilot is a merger. For this reason, ALPA has over the years developed and revised its policy on mergers.

Interestingly, because both WJ and WJE pilots are represented by ALPA, the ALPA merger policy must be followed. A result of this, as I have already stated, is that an integrated seniority list (ISL) cannot change the order of the pilots on the WPSL or the EPSL (Encore Pilot Seniority List). This means that anyone who transferred to Encore recently would have several hundred Encore pilots placed above him on an ISL. This would not seem to fly politically, nor does it replicate the WPDL. Had the WJE pilots chosen any other union to represent them (OLPA for instance), the ALPA merger policy would not apply to the ISL, and the order of pilots could have been changed. Something to think about.

If you could do me a favour bede: I have done all of the heavy lifting in this thread and others and clearly laid out the reasons why the WPDL cannot be recreated in an ALPA CBA. Could you do the same and show me how ALPA could recreate the WPDL. No short cuts though, and like a math exam, I will need you to show your work.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Maritimer wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:42 am To any non WJ employee bored enough to continue to read this thread here's the facts we know for certain so far:

1. The MEC has committed to keeping the one list.
2. A LOU was sent in to WJ management regarding the desire to maintain the one list.
3. WJ management has yet to publicly comment.
4. It is completely up to WJ management if the one list is maintained or not.

Enough said, can we please wait for all this to be finalized before continuing this pointless argument?
1. Has the MEC (that has a different Chairman, Vice-Chairman, and Secretary-Treasurer from that one that issued the communication of Nov 2, 2018) said that it will follow through with the previous MEC's plans to submit the LOU for consideration to WJ?

2. When was the LOU "sent in"?

3. Agreed.

4. I disagree. Would you please address how a LOU would avoid breaking ALPA's rules and still replicate the WPDL?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Rezy wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:15 am The interim order changed the statutory freeze....that’s why it’s an interim order. The interim order has not changed the one list or flow, as you have suggested. Otherwise, it would already be changed...because it’s an interim order.

The flow agreement is also in the WJE agreement, which is under statutory freeze and must be honoured by the company, regardless of what Kaplan says or does, as he has no authority (currently) over the WJE work rules. He could do what he did with Swoop and make Encore common employer, then he could rule on the Encore work agreement...but as of today he has no authority to do so. So flow will stay after the CBA.

Seniority at WJ being honored by WJE DOH is currently being accomplished through a LOU of which you are already aware.

Flow and seniority are not mutually exclusive to one another (I know your aware of this, but for others reading). It’s in everyone’s interest to have seniority sorted out before the final arbitration award in late December and it seems as though ALPA and the company are currently hard at work getting that mutually beneficial agreement on paper.
rezy: The Interim Order did change the statutory freeze at WJE. You just are not aware of it yet. There is a WPSL in existence now, that no one, apart from a few individuals have seen. This document does not have existing Encore pilots on it. It only has WJ and Swoop pilots on it. When Encore pilots resign at Encore and are hired at WJ, they will take their place, as Kaplan ordered (and which certainly is in agreement with Section 22 Seniority in the soon to be released CBA), at the bottom of the WPSL.

Encore pilots will continue to flow to WJ. WJ is capable of honouring that commitment and will continue to do so. What WJ is not capable of doing is placing an Encore pilot at any other place on the WPSL besides the BOTL because of the CBA soon to be fully in place between WJ and ALPA and gives contractual seniority rights, including placement on the WPSL, to WJ pilots and not to anyone from outside of the bargaining unit.

rezy, you said this:

"It’s in everyone’s interest to have seniority sorted out before the final arbitration award in late December and it seems as though ALPA and the company are currently hard at work getting that mutually beneficial agreement on paper."

Seniority is already "sorted out". It was sorted out in the May-June timeframe. As the NC pointed out in its May 8 update, the "finalized language" had been reached regarding seniority. Further, Kaplan's June order stated that both ALPA and WJ had stressed the urgency of seniority with respect to Swoop pilots. There is no way seniority was not already dealt with when Kaplan issued his order. He definitely would not have let the parties backtrack on agreed items when there are so many pressing and difficult areas left to adjudicate.

There is no pressing need for WJ to deal with Encore seniority. The Encore pilots chose a bargaining agent to represent them. In due time, the contractual items will be adressed, including the form a flowthrough program to WJ will take. For the time being, the WJ MEC's job is to negotiate the best possible deal for WJ pilots, not Encore pilots. At some point in the future, with the involvement of the three parties, I am sure that WJ and ALPA can address hiring and retention issues at Encore, which is why the WPDL was created in the first place.

When looking for causation of the collapse of the WPDL and one list policy, the only place one needs to look is to the pilots who elected a group to represent them whose policies prohibited a one list. In fact the only group whose policies prohibited a one list.

John Swallow
President
One List Pilot Association (OLPA)

"OLPA: We don't just say unity, we do unity!"
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