How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:39 pmBased on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome. The way I read it is that the two MECs are presenting a unified front by sending a formal LOU, and even though we have no idea what the comany's position is, they could very well accept it without argument. The fact that they issued an LOU is not, in itself, evidence that the list has been formalized.
Based on the above, it seems like you think WestJet won't accept the One List, and that you're basing all of your assumptions on that premise. I, for one, don't think management is stupid enough to antagonize hundreds of Encore pilots in order to appease a few OTS hires and stick it to the MEC based on pedantic readings of ALPA bylaws.


I think you are right, and I was reaching. My apologies, I am not a lawyer. I was only the recipient of a merged seniority list position once before, and I have witnessed from a distance the legal nun fights that can follow mergers. Make no mistake, as “The Prince of Heavy Darkness” told me at Royal Airlines, “John, sometimes it comes down to one single number. You will love that number and you will hate that number.” He sat as next to upgrade FO for 7 years (IIRC) at Quebecair because of that number.

We need to get this negotiation right on the first try. Meaning, an unassailable decision, in agreement with ALPA rules. Obviously, as my colleague H. wrote on the ALPA forum, generally speaking, all WJ pilots need to know ALPA policy, as it is apparently a change from what we were used to. Lack of that knowledge may have been the straw on the camel’s back that took down the MEC Chairman.

I’m not sure if that answered your post, diadem, but it’s hot here and I’m behind in my German homework.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

But the former MEC Chairman did say that they hoped to present the details of the proposed LOU to WJ soon. He also said that WJ would have to agree to it. Am I reaching if I believe that this far in their negotiations, the status of Encore pilots has not been a topic of discussion? I don’t think WJ would agree to a non-DOH seniority list, without already having agreed to terms of the Encore pilots who have and will flow. Do Encore pilots simply go to 5 year mainline pay if they had 5 years at Encore?

I don’t think it realistic that the discussions have involved WJE (current or former) pilots. That wasn’t the mandate of the MEC. The MEC’s only obligation was to existing WJ pilots. If they bargained away anything from WJ pilots to achieve something for pilots in another bargaining unit, on the basis of one survey done before the Swoop situation, and whose results are unknown, well that’s not good politics. That gets you recalled.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

The following screenshot is from the ALPA Pilot magazine and the article heralds the new ALPA Merger Policy announced in 2009. I attach the screenshot to show you how powerful the Executive Board is within the organization. It tells the ALPA President what to do. So if the Executive Board says DOH on seniority lists, good luck to those who knowingly oppose that policy.



D80E32AB-FACF-4516-ADA3-F47866BE4B82.jpeg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Why I think the WestJet Pilot Seniority List already exists: Kaplan already referred to it. He doesn't refer to a document that will be created. He talks as if it exists. At least one person has asked ALPA for a copy of the document (not me), and been met with a bit of a run around. I asked Kaplan for a copy of it, but his assistant said to contact WJ or ALPA as Kaplan was unable to directly communicate with me.

The existing WPDL has not been updated since August 2018, nor do I think it will ever be updated again. It has no further utility.



ALPA_Kaplan_Interim Award - Sept 30, 2018_JPEG_LI.jpg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

I believe the Interim Order of June 8, 2018, from Kaplan to be very instructive. It says that any pilots hired at WestJet (mainline) after the Swoop pilots were integrated on to the WestJet Pilot Seniority List will be placed on the list by their Date Of Hire. He does not make any mention of a WPDL or Encore. I don't know if there were any Encore pilots who were hired at WJ after 8 June, 2018, but by order of Kaplan, they were placed on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List by their DOH. Kaplan MUST mean DOH at WJ, otherwise he would have clarified this issue.

I think the nail is in the coffin on any possible hope that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is something other than WJ (mainline) DOH. Certainly ALPA has known since June 8, 2018 how the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is ordered.




ALPA_Kaplan_Interim_Order_June_8_2018_p4_JPEG_LI.jpg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Diadem »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
That's not new information. That doesn't confirm anything. As I said previously, an arbitrator is unlikely to refuse a clause in the CBA if all parties agree to it, so if management and the MEC decide that the list stands as it is, an interim order from five months ago, at the beginning of the negotiations, may have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of the list. Note that Kaplan originally ordered Swoop pilots could remain in the positions into which they were hired, but voila! He changed that ruling and declared the positions will be held based on seniority. It's almost like you shouldn't be assuming anything until the CBA is ratified!
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:21 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
That's not new information. That doesn't confirm anything. As I said previously, an arbitrator is unlikely to refuse a clause in the CBA if all parties agree to it, so if management and the MEC decide that the list stands as it is, an interim order from five months ago, at the beginning of the negotiations, may have no bearing whatsoever on the current state of the list. Note that Kaplan originally ordered Swoop pilots could remain in the positions into which they were hired, but voila! He changed that ruling and declared the positions will be held based on seniority. It's almost like you shouldn't be assuming anything until the CBA is ratified!
I think what you suggest just isn't reasonable. If the issue of seniority was settled prior to the June 8, 2018 order by Kaplan, where Swoop pilots where placed on the WPSL by DOH, and pilots (including those from Encore) hired at WJ subsequent to that date were placed on the WPSL by DOH, then I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened, and that a mediator would recommend expending energy on something already settled. There were far bigger fish to fry for both parties. That, and the Negotiating Committee had no duty to Encore pilots.

Be that as it may, if this issue in any way affects your career progression, then make your career choices as best you can with the information you have in hand.

Good luck.

P.S. The seniority issue (Article 22 in CBA, and list formation) MUST have been settled prior to Kaplan's order of June 8. Otherwise, there would have been no list (WPSL) to which Kaplan could have added the Swoop pilots.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:18 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:10 am Diadem, you said:


Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome.


I think there is now reason.
It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
Where does it go John? When it comes to pass that the one list and flow can live on as it does today, will you challenge it, just to try and prove that your "efforts" here weren't wasted? (I think you would fail in any challenge though, anyway).

Are you so anti-alpa/anti-union that you would attempt to cause chaos and destruction (on a real scale, not just via internet trolling) just to prove a point and stroke your own narcissism? This is the root of the issue, isn't it? Feeding John's ego?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:24 am
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:18 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:27 pm

It will be SO SWEET to see you proven wrong on this come the new year. All that bandwidth and wasted time when you could have been practicing your german or jumping off things... :lol:
hurtin' albertan. I admit it could happen. That said, something happening in January is not indicative that the matter is closed. If ALPA has violated its own rules, well, if you've read even a few of my posts, you know where that issue goes.
Where does it go John? When it comes to pass that the one list and flow can live on as it does today, will you challenge it, just to try and prove that your "efforts" here weren't wasted? (I think you would fail in any challenge though, anyway).

Are you so anti-alpa/anti-union that you would attempt to cause chaos and destruction (on a real scale, not just via internet trolling) just to prove a point and stroke your own narcissism? This is the root of the issue, isn't it? Feeding John's ego?
No my friend.

It won't be me challenging anything in court. I'm not a member of ALPA (and likely will end my employment at WJ not being a member), and as such would have no standing to bring an action against ALPA for a constitutional breach of a member's rights.

I'm curious though.

hurtin' albertan, has it never caused you any concern that you have not had a rebuttal to any of the legal arguments I have levied? Aren't you just a little bit worried that you're not up to the task intellectually?

Additionally, I get it that you have strong personal feelings against me, and as such you are chomping at the bit to see me proved wrong, as you admitted above. Might I inquire as to what your emotions will be if I am proven right (starting with (a) the definition of seniority in Section 22 in the CBA, and (b) a DOH ordered seniority list)?

Cheers

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by Diadem »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:28 am I think what you suggest just isn't reasonable. If the issue of seniority was settled prior to the June 8, 2018 order by Kaplan, where Swoop pilots where placed on the WPSL by DOH, and pilots (including those from Encore) hired at WJ subsequent to that date were placed on the WPSL by DOH, then I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened, and that a mediator would recommend expending energy on something already settled. There were far bigger fish to fry for both parties. That, and the Negotiating Committee had no duty to Encore pilots.

Be that as it may, if this issue in any way affects your career progression, then make your career choices as best you can with the information you have in hand.

Good luck.

P.S. The seniority issue (Article 22 in CBA, and list formation) MUST have been settled prior to Kaplan's order of June 8. Otherwise, there would have been no list (WPSL) to which Kaplan could have added the Swoop pilots.
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:04 am I believe the Interim Order of June 8, 2018, from Kaplan to be very instructive. It says that any pilots hired at WestJet (mainline) after the Swoop pilots were integrated on to the WestJet Pilot Seniority List will be placed on the list by their Date Of Hire. He does not make any mention of a WPDL or Encore. I don't know if there were any Encore pilots who were hired at WJ after 8 June, 2018, but by order of Kaplan, they were placed on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List by their DOH. Kaplan MUST mean DOH at WJ, otherwise he would have clarified this issue.

I think the nail is in the coffin on any possible hope that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is something other than WJ (mainline) DOH. Certainly ALPA has known since June 8, 2018 how the WestJet Pilot Seniority List is ordered.





ALPA_Kaplan_Interim_Order_June_8_2018_p4_JPEG_LI.jpg
Sorry, I didn't think this was necessary before:
Adjective
interim
1. transitional
2. temporary
Nothing is settled until the CBA is agreed to by both parties. This is an interim, and can be changed by ongoing negotiations, or even Mr Kaplan's whims, at any time. You tend to draw strong conclusions from weak inferences, and your arguments tend to rely on a deluge of verbosity rather than any real logic. As I've said numerous times before, we can't even begin discussing the fine details of the CBA when negotiations are still ongoing, and the whole thing is going to be up in the air for a while; as I've said, I don't think anything will be settled until an OTS pilot takes their case to the CIRB, assuming anyone does. As you pointed out above,
I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened
, it is merely your belief. Why wouldn't it be reasonable? If the WestJet MEC didn't think that the issue was settled, then certainly they would have sought to re-open the issue, and considering that the order you quoted above was an interim order, I don't believe the issue was settled in the first place, particularly considering it was something like three weeks after negotiations began!
I don't even work for WestJet, but I thought I would take an opposing view simply because it annoys me to no end that you've bombarded this site with posts that are often lacking in coherence and arguments that are hard to follow. The whole subject is impossible to argue, because we don't even know what the CBA will look like, so it's all an act of futility! The MEC could offer compensation to any OTS pilots passed over for an upgrade because Encore pilots were given seniority over them, but we can't know that until the CBA is released. Your wallpapering of Avcanada with endless posts is irritating, and ultimately pointless. I don't know whether you hate ALPA or the pilots who voted for unionization more, but it just seems like petty shit-stirring out of spite; I don't know whether you're trying to push for decertification, or just finding a way to punish Encore pilots for having the gall to unionize, since you couldn't figure out a way to punish WestJet pilots.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:00 pmSorry, I didn't think this was necessary before:
Adjective
interim
1. transitional
2. temporary
Nothing is settled until the CBA is agreed to by both parties. This is an interim, and can be changed by ongoing negotiations, or even Mr Kaplan's whims, at any time. You tend to draw strong conclusions from weak inferences, and your arguments tend to rely on a deluge of verbosity rather than any real logic. As I've said numerous times before, we can't even begin discussing the fine details of the CBA when negotiations are still ongoing, and the whole thing is going to be up in the air for a while; as I've said, I don't think anything will be settled until an OTS pilot takes their case to the CIRB, assuming anyone does. As you pointed out above,
I do not believe it reasonable under the Mediation/Arbitration scheme in place that seniority would then be reopened
, it is merely your belief. Why wouldn't it be reasonable? If the WestJet MEC didn't think that the issue was settled, then certainly they would have sought to re-open the issue, and considering that the order you quoted above was an interim order, I don't believe the issue was settled in the first place, particularly considering it was something like three weeks after negotiations began!
I don't even work for WestJet, but I thought I would take an opposing view simply because it annoys me to no end that you've bombarded this site with posts that are often lacking in coherence and arguments that are hard to follow. The whole subject is impossible to argue, because we don't even know what the CBA will look like, so it's all an act of futility! The MEC could offer compensation to any OTS pilots passed over for an upgrade because Encore pilots were given seniority over them, but we can't know that until the CBA is released. Your wallpapering of Avcanada with endless posts is irritating, and ultimately pointless. I don't know whether you hate ALPA or the pilots who voted for unionization more, but it just seems like petty shit-stirring out of spite; I don't know whether you're trying to push for decertification, or just finding a way to punish Encore pilots for having the gall to unionize, since you couldn't figure out a way to punish WestJet pilots.
Hi diadem, I appreciate the time you have taken to formulate a response.

Now, to clarify: do you believe that Encore pilots who flowed after the June 8, 2018 Interim Order, were NOT added to the bottom of the WestJet Pilot Seniority List (WPSL)? Meaning, do you think that the Encore pilots who flowed after that date were placed on the WPSL at a place somewhere other than at the BOTL?

To address your issues with the number or content of my posts, may I suggest you direct your efforts to the owner of this website, or his designated moderators? I donated $100 (Canadian) to Joe last week so my conscience is clear on using bandwidth.

As to my motives in returning to the theme of the extinct WPDL, well, in essence it has to do with the truth. Unfortunately, some will feel hurt with my returning to the truth from time to time. I am not responsible for anyone's feelings, including yours. If you don't like what I write, or feel offended by it, you may exercise self-restraint in not visiting this thread, or this website. I certainly disregard all attempts to question my motives or to question my character. For some reason, the opinion of my peers factors very little, if not at all, in my generally happy outlook on life.

To be very clear, I sense that an end run around the truth is going to be attempted by ALPA as they, the members of the MEC (new), attempt to re-direct blame for the demise of the WPDL. That said, they have not as of yet committed to bringing to the company the LOU proposed by the previous MEC. We don't now if they ever will. It may be the case that the premature communication of Nov 2, 2018 by the outgoing MEC Chairman ruffled a few feathers, some from as far away as Herndon. Whatever the case, the WJ MEC defines "transparency" in a manner at odds with my understanding of the word.

Cheers

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Diadem wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:39 pm
...as I said before, it doesn't address the situation when the company and the MECs are all on the same page, i.e. if WestJet, the WJ MEC, and the Encore MEC all agree to a single seniority list, what impediment would there be in its implementation?...
Diadem, I forgot to address the above statement of yours. The important party you left out in the above statement is ALPA. The MEC's on their own are not the bargaining agents for the pilots, ALPA is. ALPA alone can approve a merger of the seniority lists (along with the Company, and/or the CIRB). The MEC's cannot initiate a single seniority list attempt; they can only negotiate the ordering of the Integrated Seniority List, subject to ALPA Merger Policy. The approval of the President of ALPA is necessary for any such venture, and absent his approval, no single seniority list is possible.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

DropTanks wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:54 pm Dude, you’re smarter than this. All the agents you are speaking for (ALPA, The President of ALPA, the MEC) have all stated that the one list is alive and well as far as they’re concerned. Just the company remains.
Can you imagine the courage it takes to persist in the dogged defense of the truth when one is that lone voice in the wilderness? Staggering.

That said, apart from the ad hominem attacks, the only proof that you offer that I'm wrong is that there is no way everyone else can be wrong. Sounds like the thinking that marched everyone to the brink in the economic collapse of 2008.

No sir, I am right. Of that I have no doubt. I'm okay with that.

And it doesn't strike you as concerning that almost no one has offered any counter to the legal arguments I have offered. Right then and there you know there is a problem...

Cheers,

John
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

Weekend's over. Off to the rock for 30 hours.

TTFN
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

Post by The Tenth Man »

I do not believe I have posted this excerpt here on AvCanada. Although it is not determinative of any particular issue in the WPDL story, it does provide good background on the CIRB's view of seniority. It is lifted from yet another case before the CIRB that resulted from the Air Canada/Canadian Airlines merger.




[91] Seniority rights represent a guarantee of economic security and job stability for employees who benefit from them. One of the primary reasons for including seniority rights provisions in a collective agreement is to protect employees in the bargaining unit against arbitrariness by management. Seniority rights ensure that an objective standard is applied when determining employment status. Indeed, seniority rights have such an influence on an employee’s status and economic interest that they are considered to be an “earned benefit” (M. Kaye Joachim, “Seniority Rights and the Duty to Accommodate,” (1998), 24 Queen’s L.J. 131, paragraph 26).

[92] Normally, the employee’s date of hire or the date the probation period is completed determines the order of names on a seniority list. Usually the collective agreement indicates how this determination is to be made. The seniority list reflects the employee’s amount of continuous service at the workplace. Unless something unusual happens, such as a merger, the employee’s place on the seniority list does not change until the employment relationship ends. Seldom, if ever, is one’s position on the seniority list changed as a result of collective bargaining. It is the employee’s place on the seniority list that determines entitlement to seniority-related rights and benefits. It is the seniority-related rights and benefits, not the employee’s ranking on the seniority list itself, that are routinely negotiated by the collective agreement parties.


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