To clarify: the ALPA policy states that seniority alone will determine:
(1) demotion and promotion;
(2) retention in case of reduction in force;
(3) assignment or reassignment in case of expansion or reduction in schedules;
(4) re-employment after release due to reduction in schedules; and,
(5) choice of vacancies, provided that the pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the operation to which he is to be assigned.
The above 5 fundamental benefits of seniority are what you are contractually guaranteed when you join ALPA. They cannot simply be bargained away. In fact, the ALPA Executive Board instructed ALPA (they have that power) to use "every means at its command" to achieve (1) to (5) above. We can quibble at what "every means at its command" means, but it is definitely something less than threatening nuclear weapons attack, and definitely something more than asking nicely and bringing pie to the meeting with management.
lightchop, you will notice that ALPA doesn't mandate that seniority determines schedules, vacation, choice of training slots etc. It merely says that de minimis, seniority determines your choice of equipment/base/seat/layoff/recall.
If seniority wasn't that big of a deal, mergers would be a piece of cake. But mergers are messy, because seniority is everything to an airline pilot.
How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Last edited by The Tenth Man on Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
In the Berry v Pulley case that established the concept that the constitution is an adhesion contract between the members and the union, the CALPA seniority policy is quoted, and it is identical to the past and current ALPA seniority policy. Interestingly, Air Ontario Captain Campbell had this to say about seniority:
"Seniority isn't everything but it's all we have."
Here are the relevant paragraphs:
(iii) Seniority
[40] The Administrative Policy specifically addressed seniority. It was to be based on the date a pilot was hired by an airline company ("date of hire"). In addition, the Policy stated:
Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their re-employment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies, provided that a pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the operation to which he is to be assigned. In the event that a pilot is considered by the Company not to be sufficiently qualified, the Company shall immediately furnish such pilot written reasons therefore.[9]
[41] As such, layoffs or furloughs were not to affect a pilot's seniority.
[42] Seniority was extremely important to a pilot. As Air Ontario's Captain Campbell testified, "Seniority isn't everything but it's all we have." It influenced career opportunities including promotions and layoffs, the type of aircraft flown, flight destinations, residence, status, and work schedules. If an airline, such as Air Canada, flew from more than one base, the company decided where a pilot was to be based. Typically under a collective agreement, a seniority number would be assigned to each pilot. Based on seniority, the pilot would then bid on his or her base, equipment (i.e. aircraft) and status. The bigger and faster the plane, the more money a pilot would earn. Similarly, a captain would earn more than a first officer. Pilots also bid on their schedules and vacation time based on seniority.
"Seniority isn't everything but it's all we have."
Here are the relevant paragraphs:
(iii) Seniority
[40] The Administrative Policy specifically addressed seniority. It was to be based on the date a pilot was hired by an airline company ("date of hire"). In addition, the Policy stated:
Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their re-employment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies, provided that a pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the operation to which he is to be assigned. In the event that a pilot is considered by the Company not to be sufficiently qualified, the Company shall immediately furnish such pilot written reasons therefore.[9]
[41] As such, layoffs or furloughs were not to affect a pilot's seniority.
[42] Seniority was extremely important to a pilot. As Air Ontario's Captain Campbell testified, "Seniority isn't everything but it's all we have." It influenced career opportunities including promotions and layoffs, the type of aircraft flown, flight destinations, residence, status, and work schedules. If an airline, such as Air Canada, flew from more than one base, the company decided where a pilot was to be based. Typically under a collective agreement, a seniority number would be assigned to each pilot. Based on seniority, the pilot would then bid on his or her base, equipment (i.e. aircraft) and status. The bigger and faster the plane, the more money a pilot would earn. Similarly, a captain would earn more than a first officer. Pilots also bid on their schedules and vacation time based on seniority.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
It is somewhat understandable that WJ and WJE pilots did not bother to investigate seniority policies at ALPA. They were under a continuous barrage of messages from the ALPA Organizing Committee not to do so. All the pilots had to do was trust the Organizing Committee.
Although I do agree that socialized scheduling can exist under an ALPA CBSA. That said, there will be increasing pressure in succeeding contracts to bring in seniority bidding.
Although I do agree that socialized scheduling can exist under an ALPA CBSA. That said, there will be increasing pressure in succeeding contracts to bring in seniority bidding.
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Last edited by The Tenth Man on Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
I am willing to be a little charitable with the VP-Administration/Secretary. I honestly think he did not realize that in Canada, established jurisprudence has confirmed that the ALPA Constitution & Bylaws represent a contract between the membership and the union. This is not the case in the USA. Further, I think when he compared the WPDL (One List) to a flow-through program at the former American Eagle (now Envoy), I think he just didn't fully understand the One List, and why no other mainline/regional airline pair had ever managed to do what the WJPA did.
I further think that with the passage of time, people forget where policies came from and why they evolved the way they did. Even people in power forget the fundamentals. The fundamentals do not start with an Administrative Manual policy excerpt. The fundamentals start with a Constitution, and from there all things flow.
In any event, he was wrong in his opinion. The WPDL cannot be replicated under ALPA.
I further think that with the passage of time, people forget where policies came from and why they evolved the way they did. Even people in power forget the fundamentals. The fundamentals do not start with an Administrative Manual policy excerpt. The fundamentals start with a Constitution, and from there all things flow.
In any event, he was wrong in his opinion. The WPDL cannot be replicated under ALPA.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
If I was, as this ALPA OC founder and current YVR LEC Executive member speculated in December 2016, the only person questioning ALPA's ability to replicate the WPDL in an ALPA CBA, then so be it. The following post was from a private forum for WJ pilots, and was made the morning after the ALPA President had been in Calgary in December 2016 to announce the start of the ALPA certification drive at WJ.
The message from ALPA was and always has been that the WPDL could be replicated in an ALPA CBA.
ALPA was, is, and always has been wrong on this matter. According to their own rules, and Canadian jurisprudence, there is no way to legally replicate the WPDL.
I am curious as to what kind of research or legal opinions that the ALPA President had in his hand in December, 2016, that he could so confidently state that the WPDL could survive. On what basis did he make that statement in front of the WJ pilots?
The message from ALPA was and always has been that the WPDL could be replicated in an ALPA CBA.
ALPA was, is, and always has been wrong on this matter. According to their own rules, and Canadian jurisprudence, there is no way to legally replicate the WPDL.
I am curious as to what kind of research or legal opinions that the ALPA President had in his hand in December, 2016, that he could so confidently state that the WPDL could survive. On what basis did he make that statement in front of the WJ pilots?
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
I don't want to wander to far astray in explaining the current predicament, but I do think it instructive to show how some critics viewed the WPDL (One List) in the past, and did not give credit to the WJPA for achieving what no other mainline/regional carrier pair had ever achieved. I believe the current ALPA YVR Secretary-Treasurer to be the author of the following quotation from the defunct WestJet Professional Pilot Association's (WPPA*) newsletter. If this is true, then that might explain how he was able to confidently disregard warnings of the WPDL's demise under ALPA: he was never a fan of it! While he would have been able to reproduce the WPDL under the WPPA, or any other union besides ALPA, tragically, under ALPA he cannot.
I understand that there is a vacancy in the YVR LEC Captain's representative seat, with the vacancy created by another prominent former WPPA founding member's election to the MEC Vice-Chairman's role. I wonder if he was as disdainful of the WPDL as his colleague?
This is what he said in February, 2015:
The next part of the analysis is associated with the slide on p.33: "Should the WestJet pilots and Encore pilots be on one date of hire list?" 73% of pilots surveyed answered that they wanted one pilot list. Has the current WJPA really achieved this? To answer this question properly, first one has to look at this quesiton in a historical and industry context.
Historically, one date of hire (DOH) list meant that once a pilot was placed on their respective airline's seniority list, their years of service (YOS) would be honoured, no matter what equipment they were on (whether it be a turboprop or jet aircraft). This is not the case when looking at the "Departmental List" of WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots.
YOS are not honoured if an Encore Captain goes to the FO seat of the Boeing(s), nor in a transfer from Encore FO to WestJet FO. In a traditional one-list scenario, the YOS would transfer in the above cases.
The second point that disproves the existence of a true single pilot list is the continued use of the term "flow" when discussing a Q400 pilot transitioning to a Boeing seat. If the WestJet and Encore pilots truly had one pilot list, then the word "flow" would never be used to describe a pilot transitioning froma Q400 to a Boeing. Positions on both aircraft would be awarded by position bids. To reduce training costs and help the bottom line, contractual language that includes a "seat lock" for a defined period could be negotiated. This is not uncommon in pilot seniority lists at airlines that operate different aircraft types.
The WPPA would have access to legal solutions provided by Canadian Labour Law that could potentially place all Encore and WestJet pilots onto one legally recognized pilot list ("Common Employer") if the membership wanted to pursure a true "single list". This would help protect all pilots flying at WestJet in the event of a merger. As an example: pilots at Rouge are technically just on an equipment bid, and are on one list with Air Canada pilots. WPPA could potentially meet the pilots' desires as indicated by the survey data regarding one pilot list with Encore.
*The WPPA tried unsuccessfully to certify the WestJet pilot group in 2015 and held a vote in August of that year. I Septmeber of that year, the former ALPA MEC Chairman, and then WPPA President, announced that had asked ALPA for help in certifying the WJ pilots.
I understand that there is a vacancy in the YVR LEC Captain's representative seat, with the vacancy created by another prominent former WPPA founding member's election to the MEC Vice-Chairman's role. I wonder if he was as disdainful of the WPDL as his colleague?
This is what he said in February, 2015:
The next part of the analysis is associated with the slide on p.33: "Should the WestJet pilots and Encore pilots be on one date of hire list?" 73% of pilots surveyed answered that they wanted one pilot list. Has the current WJPA really achieved this? To answer this question properly, first one has to look at this quesiton in a historical and industry context.
Historically, one date of hire (DOH) list meant that once a pilot was placed on their respective airline's seniority list, their years of service (YOS) would be honoured, no matter what equipment they were on (whether it be a turboprop or jet aircraft). This is not the case when looking at the "Departmental List" of WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots.
YOS are not honoured if an Encore Captain goes to the FO seat of the Boeing(s), nor in a transfer from Encore FO to WestJet FO. In a traditional one-list scenario, the YOS would transfer in the above cases.
The second point that disproves the existence of a true single pilot list is the continued use of the term "flow" when discussing a Q400 pilot transitioning to a Boeing seat. If the WestJet and Encore pilots truly had one pilot list, then the word "flow" would never be used to describe a pilot transitioning froma Q400 to a Boeing. Positions on both aircraft would be awarded by position bids. To reduce training costs and help the bottom line, contractual language that includes a "seat lock" for a defined period could be negotiated. This is not uncommon in pilot seniority lists at airlines that operate different aircraft types.
The WPPA would have access to legal solutions provided by Canadian Labour Law that could potentially place all Encore and WestJet pilots onto one legally recognized pilot list ("Common Employer") if the membership wanted to pursure a true "single list". This would help protect all pilots flying at WestJet in the event of a merger. As an example: pilots at Rouge are technically just on an equipment bid, and are on one list with Air Canada pilots. WPPA could potentially meet the pilots' desires as indicated by the survey data regarding one pilot list with Encore.
*The WPPA tried unsuccessfully to certify the WestJet pilot group in 2015 and held a vote in August of that year. I Septmeber of that year, the former ALPA MEC Chairman, and then WPPA President, announced that had asked ALPA for help in certifying the WJ pilots.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Are you sure you failed that Chinese medical because of your eyes?
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flyer 1492
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Well, I might not have, but it looks like the MEC Chairman might have failed due to not using his eyes to read. All he had to do was ask, I would have told him what the Seniority Policy was all about. With pictures!!!
From the ALPA forum, a post from my colleague:
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Rotate your phone 90 degrees to see what the book’s title is.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
And to address the comments from the ALPA forum, I do not agree with H.'s comments. This disaster was very foreseeable and it took willful ignorance to get here. Although I didn't ever talk to the MEC Chairman personally about ALPA's seniority policy, I did speak to the Vice-Chairman (now Canada Board - President Elect) just prior to, or during the certification vote in 2017. I voiced my concerns to him while we were both on a layover in LGA. I don't know what the depth of his understanding was of the problems with the WPDL under ALPA, but surely all of this mess can't fall solely on the shoulders of the MEC Chairman. They obviously knew of my concerns as is evidenced by the YVR LEC's Secretary - Treasurer's post from the former WPPA forum (posted above).
This took a collective blindness of gargantuan proportions to achieve, and a similarly grotesque apathy in the outcomes of for current and former WJE pilots.
This took a collective blindness of gargantuan proportions to achieve, and a similarly grotesque apathy in the outcomes of for current and former WJE pilots.
Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Curious how you got your hands on a post from a private internet forum that was most likely not intended for public consumption on a public forum.China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:29 pmWell, I might not have, but it looks like the MEC Chairman might have failed due to not using his eyes to read. All he had to do was ask, I would have told him what the Seniority Policy was all about. With pictures!!!
From the ALPA forum, a post from my colleague:C665A1AE-08DB-4718-B414-21B666B68E67.jpeg
Maybe your "friend" who sent it to you could rethink basic etiquette and not share information meant for members with non-members. You have after all vocally announced that you are not nor will you ever be an ALPA member. Or maybe it is a case of moral standards be damned because you are in a posting frenzy and have a point to make.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
How dare you!
HOW DARE YOU!!
You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???
How dare you!
John
HOW DARE YOU!!
You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???
How dare you!
John
Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Boy, you sure do like to talk to yourself.China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:41 pm How dare you!
HOW DARE YOU!!
You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???
How dare you!
John
Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
There you go jumping to conclusions. AGAIN. Names are posted on the ALPA forum so you know who posted the screenshot you obtained, you are assuming that he and I are one and the same. This may or may not be true as I have never revealed my identity on this forum.China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:41 pm How dare you!
HOW DARE YOU!!
You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???
How dare you!
John
Just because you think you are right does not make it so.
The assertation that you are the only person to see this correctly when just about everyone else disagrees with you including the legal department at ALPA is stunning in its arrogance.
Right back at ya. How dare you question my integrity when all you have done for the past number of years is to sow dissension and discord and played your anti-union fiddle.
We will all know in the New Year what the future holds and then maybe we can move forward.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Sorry dude, I never thought you were him. I just thought you were one of the rest of the pilots who didn't bother to check what would happen to the Encore pilots. My apologies for the outburst; I was paying for the winter tires I just had installed and the lady told me I have a gouge in one of the rear rotors. I'm over it, it's just money.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:25 pmThere you go jumping to conclusions. AGAIN. Names are posted on the ALPA forum so you know who posted the screenshot you obtained, you are assuming that he and I are one and the same. This may or may not be true as I have never revealed my identity on this forum.China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:41 pm How dare you!
HOW DARE YOU!!
You willfully participated in this mess, this fiasco, ignoring the (very simple to understand) message I had and you now have the gall to criticize me because I posted (without identifying the author) from the forum where no one ever gets answers???
How dare you!
John
Just because you think you are right does not make it so.
The assertation that you are the only person to see this correctly when just about everyone else disagrees with you including the legal department at ALPA is stunning in its arrogance.
Right back at ya. How dare you question my integrity when all you have done for the past number of years is to sow dissension and discord and played your anti-union fiddle.
We will all know in the New Year what the future holds and then maybe we can move forward.
Now, on to why the MEC didn't bother to investigate further into the intricacies of the ALPA seniority list issue as it related to replicating the One List. I think the answer lies in this message from the MEC back in April. As Encore pilots are not on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List, they have no obligation towards them:
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
BTW FL410AVR, any chance you had a counter argument? Maybe something from ALPA's Constitution and policies that help your contention that the WPDL could survive ALPA? My evidence is in ALPA's Constitution and in its Executive Board policies.
Yours would be...?
Yours would be...?
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Diadem
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Having read through this whole ruling, my big takeaway is that the operators and ACPA opposed the merged seniority list; as I said before, it doesn't address the situation when the company and the MECs are all on the same page, i.e. if WestJet, the WJ MEC, and the Encore MEC all agree to a single seniority list, what impediment would there be in its implementation? Not only that, but I'd like to highlight this portion: it is ALPA that negotiated the collective agreements. ALPA had negotiated the collective agreements that were in place at the various airlines involved in the case, and had, therefore, previously established separate seniority lists. WestJet and Encore are not in that situation, as they are currently negotiating their very first CBAs, and are, from the beginning, attempting to establish a single list. If they already had CBAs that established separate lists, and then filed a grievance with the CIRB, it would be a more applicable case.China_CAAC_Exam wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:34 am I missed this paragraph earlier. It addresses the idea that ALPA could somehow approach the CIRB to reorganize the bargaining units after just having certified them. From Air Canada, 1999:
102 ... It is ALPA that organized and certified the bargaining units, and it is ALPA that negotiated the collective agreements. How can it now say that the very conditions it created have become harmful to labour relations? To the contrary, connector carriers have grown significantly since its pilots have been represented by ALPA, both in fleet size and the number of pilots employed. There have been no temporary or permanent lay-offs...
As for this:
Based on your own comments, there is not currently a seniority list available, and that you're waiting on Mr Kaplan to make a determination about the state of such a list; yet, in the quote above, you seem to be implying that the list is formalized and available to the MEC, and that they had to create the LOU to counter the dropping of Encore pilots. I think your reasoning is rather weak and specious, and that you're really reaching with this one. Since the contract is still in arbitration, there's no reason to assume that the list has already been set in stone; if the MECs make a unified proposal to WestJet management that they maintain the list, and management agrees, the arbitrator should accept that, seeing as every party wants the same outcome. The way I read it is that the two MECs are presenting a unified front by sending a formal LOU, and even though we have no idea what the comany's position is, they could very well accept it without argument. The fact that they issued an LOU is not, in itself, evidence that the list has been formalized.If the WestJet Pilot Seniority List recognizes time at WJE, there would be no need for an LOU that relies on WJ's agreement. There would also be no need for the WJ MEC Vice-Chairman to be working to "cement the one list seniority concept", they would simply recognize the WJE DOH on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List! Therefore, I must conclude that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List does not recognize time at WJE for the calculation of seniority.
Based on the above, it seems like you think WestJet won't accept the One List, and that you're basing all of your assumptions on that premise. I, for one, don't think management is stupid enough to antagonize hundreds of Encore pilots in order to appease a few OTS hires and stick it to the MEC based on pedantic readings of ALPA bylaws.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
Found the case I was looking for that spoke of pre-contract “privileges” versus collectively bargained rights that a union has a duty to protect. This in respect to right of upgrade to be determined by seniority.
After considering the decided cases and the collective agreement, it is our view that the latter theory should prevail. While we recognize the equities that have pushed arbitrators to extend seniority rights to non-bargaining unit personnel, it is difficult to escape the logic expressed in the Federal Wire & Cable case that seniority is a bargaining unit concept. Before collective bargaining employees do not have job security or seniority rights. Some employers may unilaterally grant priority to longer-service employees, but these priorities are privileges and not rights in an era of pre-collective bargaining. Once the right of collective bargaining is achieved, employees are entitled as of right, to the benefits of the collective agreement. These rights are achieved by bilateral negotiation and not unilaterally bestowed as a privilege.
After considering the decided cases and the collective agreement, it is our view that the latter theory should prevail. While we recognize the equities that have pushed arbitrators to extend seniority rights to non-bargaining unit personnel, it is difficult to escape the logic expressed in the Federal Wire & Cable case that seniority is a bargaining unit concept. Before collective bargaining employees do not have job security or seniority rights. Some employers may unilaterally grant priority to longer-service employees, but these priorities are privileges and not rights in an era of pre-collective bargaining. Once the right of collective bargaining is achieved, employees are entitled as of right, to the benefits of the collective agreement. These rights are achieved by bilateral negotiation and not unilaterally bestowed as a privilege.
Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?
So to summarize, you're saying that direct-hire pilots at WestJet would not be happy with the one list and since ALPA's mandate based on its constitution is to protect its own pilots (in this context pilots currently at WestJet), the one list will not endure. Also that it would have been possible to keep the one list under the previous regime but not with ALPA, is this the jest of your argument? Is Kaplan also deciding on this?
