How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

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WeedPro2000
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#51 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:36 am

Mr. North, I sympathise with your position and the others at WJE. Throughout the certification campaign, and indeed before, I tried to convince others of the danger to the WPDL in the event of certification by ALPA. I had read the ALPA Constitution and the policies of the ALPA Executive Board. I read Canadian and US case law. Although I am not a lawyer, I can read. The principles behind why the WPDL is an extinct document under ALPA is simple enough. All it takes to understand the situation is to have the willingness to explore. The MECs of WJA and WJE put blinders on when they conceived whatever the LOU consists of. It is certainly NOT possible to deprive the seniority rights of a member of a bargaining unit simply to replicate a previous management policy. ALPA rules are clear.

Had we all taken the time to realize what the complications were in agreeing to the WPDL, it is likely it never would have seen the light of day. Instituting a policy that was vulnerable to attack at any time was unwise. But then most of us were unaware how close certification was, and therefore most didn't bother looking into the corners for where the monsters lie.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#52 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:15 am

Here is the current and in-force version of the seniority policies from the ALPA Administrative Manual, Section 40. Compare these two pages (also attached as PDF to this post) to the seniority section from the 1967 ALPA Policy Manual posted by WeedPro above. They are identical. The policy has been in place for 62 years, since 1956! There is nothing more fundamental in ALPA than seniority/seniority list construction. It was put in place to combat exactly what the WPDL represents to a union, favouritism to pilots from a select group, in this case pilots from WJE.

It is so simple and was in full view for all to see. No one wanted to listen. It was a problem for another day. That day is almost here.

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#53 Post by cloak » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:26 am

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:55 am
As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.
So, you are saying that if WestJet wants to recognise service at Encore, it should give at its own expense (higher wages, vacation, bonus, etc.), and not at the expense of the pilots (seniority)? Carry forward YOS for pay and vacation, but seniority as date of flow into WestJet/Swoop?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#54 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:06 pm

Certainly the founding members of the ALPA OC at WJ wanted WJ/WJE pilots to believe the WPDL could be replicated in an ALPA CBA:
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#55 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:24 pm

But as we know, the policy of the Executive Board passed in 1956 is that seniority must be based on DOH (non-merger) and seniority alone controls promotion (upgrade). From the latest ALPA Constitution and Bylaws (September 18, 2018), we see that the President of ALPA has a duty to uphold this policy:
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As well, the MEC Chair also has a duty to uphold Executive Board policy:
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#56 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:32 pm

And how would ALPA handle the MEC's (Captain RM) attempt to disregard Executive Board policy?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#57 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:42 pm

So you see, it's all there in black and white. There is no wiggle room. ALPA, for various reasons, cannot institute a replica of the WPDL. The policy that forbids it was issued by the Executive Board in 1956, and it is still present in the most recent Administrative Manual (Chapter 40) as of October 31, 2017. Anyone who thinks that there is any possible way to circumvent this reality is unfortunately living in a delusional state.

I suggest that some very hard questions be asked of the Canada Board President - Elect, the current WJ MEC Chairman, as well as well as the YVR LEC Secretary Treasurer, the three of whom were the original OC members and responsible for dissemination of inaccurate information that has adversely affected the lives of hundreds of current and former WJE pilots. I would caution any OTS pilots hired after 2014 from exhibiting any public pleasure at their winfall. Perhaps retreat to a quiet room with a sharpie and a paper copy of the WPDL. Congratulations on your good fortune. Be kind.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#58 Post by flyer 1492 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:54 pm

Another name to add to the spam list...Right John.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#59 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:13 pm

cloak wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:26 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:55 am
As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.
So, you are saying that if WestJet wants to recognise service at Encore, it should give at its own expense (higher wages, vacation, bonus, etc.), and not at the expense of the pilots (seniority)? Carry forward YOS for pay and vacation, but seniority as date of flow into WestJet/Swoop?
No I am not saying that. The one list initially only benefited the company. The applications at Encore were drying up and so to intice applicants the “flow to WestJet with your seniority” was arranged. Wages should have been increased and with better working conditions so pilots would have wanted to go to Encore and not only use them as a stepping stone to WestJet. The one list if used with only 100% flow and no off the street hires would have made sense. However, with off the street hires at WestJet being employed at WestJet before a pilot flows across is where the problem arises. Encore pilots resign from Encore and then are hired at WestJet and even take part in the ‘New hire pizza party’. Make no mistake Encore pilots are not at WestJet...that is why they could not even vote on the Wide body MOA’s, they must resign from Encore and then are given a WestJet date of hire. With off the street hires having an earlier start date at WestJet. ALPA was wanted by a majority at both companies, WestJet and Encore, they are different companies. However, ALPA has its own rules about seniority and maybe all those who voted for and wanted ALPA should of done their research before voting them in.(I did read your response Mr. North)
If we are to be governed by ALPA rules then we should be governed by all ALPA rules. I believe seniority will become of even greater importance in the future at WestJet so yes I am looking into this. I have some limited knowledge of ALPA as I was an ALPA member for thirteen years and was an MEC member as a Capt. Rep for my previous employer. I do know seniority is everything at an ALPA company.
When I was hired at WestJet I was just happy to have been offered a full-time position (at a Company that I had wanted to come to for along time. Being offered an interview I likened to winning a lottery and was thrilled) after being told the positions at the company where I was at would be lost. I had a wife and three children to support and the one list was not something I was made aware of or went looking into. I prepared and studied for my interview, not the relationship between Encore and WestJet.
Additionally Mr. North I do not expect to see an upgrade for 8 more years not 4. There are over 500 pilots ahead of my class who are still F/O’s. 90ish by choice who by-passed their upgrade and who now if we do in fact get awarded years of service would be more inclined to upgrade. With retirements and expansion at 50 upgrades a year that is still 10 years from now so being optimistic I chose 8. If you think 180 Encore pilots who will have eventually flowed in front of my class is only a couple of missed upgrade courses you are mistaken. Additionally their years as a Captain, earning years of a Captain pay before we upgrade will surpass any benefit in pay we might of initially had. Now applicants to Encore have even lower total accumulated time than in the past and direct entry pilots with much higher time and experience will be placed on the one list below them while they are still working to acquire the necessary time and experience for the ATPL in some cases. I don’t believe they should have higher seniority than a direct entry jet pilot.
I guess we will all see come January what happens and how this plays out.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#60 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:32 pm

flyer 1492 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:54 pm
Another name to add to the spam list...Right John.
If I didn't have a proper response to the merits of an argument, I would attack the poster. What would you do?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#61 Post by Bede » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:05 pm

DC-10 Driver,

When you started at WJ, you surely knew all of the terms and conditions with respect to where you sat on the list. It's sad that now you are willing to through our Encore brothers under the bus to further your personal interests.

When we insisted on wage parity with the Swoop start up, the company went to Encore and asked the pilots if they wanted to fly the planes. They had the opportunity to be top of the scab list. Not one of them put themselves ahead of any of us, even though it would have been personally beneficial for them to do so. In return, the Encore pilots have earned my unconditional support and loyalty.

WRT your argument that the one-list was a carrot to attract applicants and reduce wages, I agree.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#62 Post by WeedPro2000 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:59 pm

Bede wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:05 pm
DC-10 Driver,

When you started at WJ, you surely knew all of the terms and conditions with respect to where you sat on the list. It's sad that now you are willing to through our Encore brothers under the bus to further your personal interests.

When we insisted on wage parity with the Swoop start up, the company went to Encore and asked the pilots if they wanted to fly the planes. They had the opportunity to be top of the scab list. Not one of them put themselves ahead of any of us, even though it would have been personally beneficial for them to do so. In return, the Encore pilots have earned my unconditional support and loyalty.

WRT your argument that the one-list was a carrot to attract applicants and reduce wages, I agree.
Bede, what exactly are you doing with that "unconditional support and loyalty?" Where were you when the certification drive was on? Why did you not help educate the Encore pilots on what would happen to the WPDL if ALPA was successful? If all you're doing with that support and loyalty is posting here, well, that's virtue signalling and that and a couple of bucks gets you a coffee, nothing more.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#63 Post by Bede » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:42 pm

What am I doing to support Encore pilots?
1) Telling them to sign on with ALPA. No matter what you post on this forum, you continue to be proven wrong.
2) Siding with Encore pilots against those wishing to undermine the collective unity of the group with their own personal agenda's.

I don't know why I respond to you any more. You can't be reasoned with.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#64 Post by WeedPro2000 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:39 am

Reasoned with? Bede, you haven't countered any of the points raised above! Failure to counter the issues I raised will simply result in an adverse inference: you recognize that I'm right.

FYI, me pointing out why something can't happen isn't the same as me being responsible for the something not happening.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#65 Post by WeedPro2000 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:03 am

Bede, I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you encouraged former WJE pilots already at WJ to vote in a system (ALPA) that resulted in those pilots (and their colleagues still at WJE) losing tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and in some cases, millions of dollars in lost future earnings. I wish I had your ability to shutdown my conscience. You should give a course on that.

Me? I still wonder at what else I could have done to prevent all of this from happening. I donated $1000 to a local PC party candidate, hoping she could influence the Senate vote to prevent the change in the law governing union certification. In the end it didn't matter. I also spent $400 setting up a website, www.encoresenioritycoalition.org, at which I posted the reasons why ALPA meant the death of the WPDL. I further spent $350 with the ALPA archivist in Chicago, who searched through and sent me any records on seniority within ALPA's historical records. I spent hundreds of hours researching the topic of seniority and unions, including reading through countless court decisions, both in Canada and the USA. I spent untold time composing posts here and elsewhere trying to reach the people who were going to condemn a pilot group to loss income, and a decade of unhappiness at the pilots responsible: themselves.

I don't blame the non-WJE pilots, current and former. People vote for their self interests. You, Bede, you did like the rest of your colleagues, you did what was best for you and said f#ck the Encore pilots. Let them solve their own problems, we need ALPA! But the former and current Encore pilots should have explored the issue. They believed people like you Bede, who told them it would be okay. They believed the ALPA OC. They believed the President of ALPA. They believed all these people who deceived them because they wanted to believe. They have just been taught a valuable lesson on the nature of people.

So tell me, Bede, what else could I have done to prevent this atrocity from happening?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#66 Post by WeedPro2000 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:34 am

As opposed to just attacking me personally, how about using your education to answer the points I have raised?

Like Bill Murray said in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis!"
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#67 Post by The Tenth Man » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:32 pm

I did a little more digging. At this point, I think the MEC's of both WJ and WJE have violated the terms of the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws. The WJ MEC admitted to the breach on Nov 2, 2018.
From Your MEC
Fellow pilots,

"One List" Update

In Washington, D.C., we held a joint MEC meeting with the Encore MEC. There were many items to discuss about how to work together, but one of the most important interim steps was to formalize an agreement and language between the two pilot groups on how to recognize the contribution that all pilots bring to WestJet. This agreement recognizes the seniority of WestJet and Encore pilots within the WestJet group. This document has been legally reviewed and meets the requirements set forth under the ALPA Constitution and Canadian labour law.

This initiative follows the original intent of the "One List," a policy that was overwhelmingly supported by pilots (based on survey results) at WestJet. Additionally, we believe WestJet group should view this agreement as good for them, as a major retention and attraction initiative at Encore.

The two MECs will propose this formal agreement in the form of a Letter of Understanding (LOU) between both pilot groups to WestJet management. They in turn will also have to accept the LOU and be a signatory. The final step will be to hold a pilot vote at each group before it will be implemented.

While only a first step of many toward fully uniting with the Encore pilots, this will serve as an excellent example of how unity between pilot groups can benefit the pilot profession and airlines in Canada.

For far too long, we have allowed corporations to divide pilots, and this has been to the detriment of our profession. We firmly believe that when we have all the professional pilots working together across Canada, we will be in a much stronger position to advocate for pilots and start moving forward together. It will only be our unity that will give us the strength to make the changes to our industry and our profession that pilots have desired for so long.

We expect to present this LOU to WestJet Airlines shortly.
The Canada Board President - Elect admitted to the breach of the constitutionally mandated seniority policy of ALPA as well.

http://timperry2018.com/about/
Our first MEC resolution was to recognize Encore pilots as WestJet pilots – essentially to remove any professional barriers between our pilot groups that exist because of corporate branding or aircraft type. Since then I’ve been working with their MEC officers to cement the one seniority list concept and the unification of our pilot groups starting with eventually creating a single MEC structure. This unity work very much captures my union philosophy. Stronger together.
If the contents of the proposed LOU do in fact intend to replace seniority for determining upgrades, then both MECs are guilty of trying to subvert Executive Board policy and the Constitution and Bylaws. And in Breach of Contract. And now open to discipline by ALPA.

And the incoming Canada Board President is also in breach of the Constitution and Bylaws, by virtue of his working to subvert Executive Board policy while on the MEC at WJ.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#68 Post by Diadem » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:50 pm

I'll bite, WeedPro. I work for a company with ALPA representation, so I'm pretty familiar with their bylaws.
The crux of your argument seems to be based on this clause: Section 40.3 "Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins initial training required to perform such duties in airline operations..."
The issue then becomes what the definition of the Company is. Are WestJet and Encore separate companies, or, as a wholly-owned subsidiary, is Encore a part of the WestJet company? The money used to pay Encore pilots comes directly from WestJet, so even though they have separate AOCs, are they really separate companies? That's a legally-contentious issue that likely wouldn't be resolved until someone with standing filed a lawsuit, and the suit ran through the court system.
The problem with your argument is that precedent has now been established by Mr Kaplan that Swoop, as a wholly-owned subsidiary of WestJet, is part of the same company. Swoop pilots are now represented by the WestJet MEC, and are on the same seniority list. WestJet pilots have been able to bid into Swoop positions, and Swoop pilots will be able to bid back to WestJet. To complicate matter further, Encore pilots have been able to bid into Swoop positions, and will be able to bid back to WestJet. So if Swoop, as a wholly-owned subsidiary, is part of the same company, legally Encore would meet the same definition, and the WPDL will be unaffected. If, as you seem to think, they are separate companies and moving from one to another means being put at the bottom of the list, then at the end of the lawsuit the judge will have to decide what's going to happen to all the pilots who moved to Swoop; will they return to their previous positions, potentially being disadvantaged because they would have upgraded if they had stayed at WestJet, and now they're back to being FOs, or will they return to their places on the seniority list? Will the Encore pilots be returned to Encore, or will they be moved to WestJet, because they would have flowed during the time that the lawsuit was in progress? This will create a hugely contentious and complex matter that I don't think would go the way the plaintiffs would like, because the arbitrator of the current agreement has already decided that Swoop and WestJet are common employers. In fact, if anything, I could see a case being made that Encore pilots should fall under the WestJet MEC; that is to say, if someone were to file such a suit, it may backfire, and the judge may order that since Swoop and WestJet have a common bargaining unit, then so should Encore.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#69 Post by av8ts » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:52 pm

Am I the only one who just skips right over the Weedpro posts and reads the others ?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#70 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:29 am

Maybe.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#71 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:52 am

A WJE pilot sent me a message last night. He recognized that it seems highly likely that the WestJet Pilot Seniority List that Kaplan referred to has no Encore pilots on it. Further it seems to him that the list will likely have the names ordered by DOH (mainline). That said, he stated that I'm off base on what the intentions of the two MECs are. He essentially (I'm abbreviating his argument here) said that they are not intending to violate ALPA (seniority/seniority list/seniority rights) policy (Executive Board, 1956), they are going to follow it to the letter. He said (more importantly) that they are planning to invoke ALPA merger policy (Section 45, Administrative Manual).

There was more to the message, but the above is his version of what is going on. He is not on either MEC/LEC. He wouldn't say why he knows the above.

I recognize that ALPA merger policy ( magazine article) that our very own rudder helped author, permits a merger declaration ahead of an actual operational merger. From the article linked above:
The new policy defines a merger as “a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient operational integration between or among two or more ALPA airlines and that there is or will be a need for an integrated seniority list, a JCBA, and a merged MEC to adequately protect the employment interests of the flightdeck crewmembers.” In addition, it enables MECs to enter agreements with other MECs unconstrained by corporate time lines.

There are two ways to implement ALPA merger policy. Under one method, the involved MECs may determine “at any time” that it is in the best interests of their members to enter into agreements that provide a process by which the MECs will negotiate a new joint contract and decide on procedures to integrate their seniority lists. Under the second method, if there is a “merger” as defined by policy and the MECs are unable or unwilling to enter into process agreements addressing both seniority integration and negotiating a JCBA, the policy is implemented by establishing a “process implementation date” (PID). This date is established on the earlier of the date on which the Executive Council, in its judgment, determines a merger has taken place or the date on which ALPA’s president agrees with the determination of all involved MECs that there is a merger.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#72 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:16 am

Returning to primary sources, attached is the current ALPA merger policy, page 2. The authority for what the WJE pilot proposed is stated in the bottom three paragraphs:

This policy establishes processes based on these premises, to be followed by pilot groups from the outset through the completion of the merger. However, broad authority is provided to MECs to design and agree on alternative processes that meet their own needs. The basic policy serves as a “governing” process in the event that the MECs do not desire to or cannot reach such agreements.

The policy recognizes that MECs may be required to deal with a variety of types of corporate transactions and that innovation by MECs dealing with different types of corporate transactions may best serve the interests of their pilot groups and ALPA. MECs are strongly encouraged to consider using flexible arrangements available under policy to design processes tailored to the needs of their particular pilot groups and transaction. MECs are encouraged to keep in mind that flexibility is made available in recognition that a “one size fits all” process is not the best approach when dealing with transactions.

This policy provides at the outset that its scope (Part 2B 1) should not be defined in terms of particular types of transactions or the timing or announcement of transactions, all of which are controlled by corporate interests, but rather in terms of situations when there is a need to protect employee interests.









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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#73 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:26 am

Page 3 of the Merger Policy states, in part:

The policy provides for its implementation using either of two methods.

Under one method, the involved MECs may determine “at any time” (Part 2B 2) that it is in the best interests of their flight deck crew members to enter into agreements which provide for an alternative process for seniority integration, negotiating a JCBA or both. If this determination is made, with the approval of the President, the MECs have wide latitude to fashion their own process, subject only to meeting certain fundamental requirements of policy (Parts 2B 2 and 2C 1).

This feature of the policy provides the MECs with the flexibility to deal with their particular situation. It is also important that these policy provisions enable MECs to make these agreements “at any time,” even before there is a “merger” as defined by policy, so that cooperating MECs can be involved in a potential merger at an early stage.





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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#74 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:39 am

Thus far, the merger policy permits ALPA MECs, with approval of the President of ALPA, to enter into discussions to merge seniority lists, with or without the intention to negotiate a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA).
From page 5:

1. This policy recognizes that the scope of a viable ALPA Merger Policy may not be defined in terms of particular types of transactions or the timing or announcement of a particular transaction. Under these circumstances, “merger” means a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient operational integration between or among two or more
ALPA airlines that there is or will be a need for an integrated seniority list, a JCBA and a merged MEC to adequately protect the employment interests of the flight deck crew members.

The scope of this policy also recognizes that MECs may desire to make agreements “at any time” – for example, before there is a “merger” as defined by policy – to enable them to be involved in a potential merger at an early stage. The policy embraces the concept that MECs can enter into such agreements.

2. The terms and conditions set forth in Part 2C 1 below shall be applicable when two or more MECs determine at any time it is in the best interests of their flight deck crew members to enter into discussions, negotiations and agreements which provide for a process for seniority list integration, negotiating a JCBA or both.






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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#75 Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:54 am

From page 5 (previous post) and page 6(attached):

C. MERGER AGREEMENTS BETWEEN OR AMONG MECS

1. Upon making a determination under Part 2B 2 above, and with the approval of the President, the involved MECs may enter into discussions, negotiations and agreements which provide for a process for seniority list integration, negotiating a JCBA or both.

a. The President may approve an agreement or agreements between or among the involved MECs which provide(s) for an alternative process for seniority list integration or concluding a JCBA or both.
(1)
(a) All such agreements shall be subject to the following provisions of this merger policy:
Part 3A 1c and 1d (communications)
Part 3C 1 (merger representatives)
Part 3C 2 and 4b, subject to an agreed alternative arbitration process
(compilation and verification of employment data)
Part 3C 4c (“grandfather” rights)
Part 3C 4d (not change order on own seniority list)
Part 3C 4e and 5a(2) (fair and equitable integrated seniority list)
Part 3C 4f (no integrated seniority list subject to MEC or membership
ratification)
Part 3C 5c(8) (use of communications in arbitration proceedings discouraged)
Part 3C 5e(2) (arbitration award final and binding)
Part 3D (implementation of integrated seniority list)
Part 3F (funding and payment of merger related expenses)
Part 3G (disposition of merger assessment funds)
Part 5 (requests to ALPA for data and information)





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