One List is Back!!

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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shawnthesheep
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One List is Back!!

Post by shawnthesheep » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:26 pm

Thoughts?
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DaveP
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by DaveP » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:30 pm

Super happy for you guys!

It’s great to take the lead on this sort of arrangement in Canada. Once hired - no more interviews, “almost” no more pay cut to transfer to WJ (28,800 over 24 months until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years) It’s pretty sweet for a pilot starting at WJE. I’ve come to understand not a lot of pilots out there are aware of these big items.

Do the best job we can now - support our guests and support our growth! It’s been a weird couple years here but as I mentioned before - I think we have rounded the corner and the foot is on the gas.

Take care
Dave
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Last edited by DaveP on Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

losercruiser
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by losercruiser » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:02 pm

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Hangry
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Hangry » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:59 pm

Lol. Seriously
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CaptainHaddock
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by CaptainHaddock » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Now if we could just remove the pink pay scale in between we would be on our way.🌈
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FlyAlberta
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by FlyAlberta » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:41 pm

DaveP wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:30 pm
Super happy for you guys!

It’s great to take the lead on this sort of arrangement in Canada. Once hired - no more interviews, no more pay cut to transfer to WJ. It’s pretty sweet for a pilot starting at WJE.

Do the best job we can now - support our guests and support our growth! It’s been a weird couple years here but as I mentioned before - I think we have rounded the corner and the foot is on the gas.

Take care
Dave

Dave,

I would respectfully like to clarify some incorrect info in your post. Encore pilots still take a pay cut to flow to Mainline or Swoop. While REIP narrows the gap it does not fully make up the difference. I truly hope that there are discussions in the works to completely eliminate the pay cut for the folks advancing their career within the WestJet group.
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Babar350
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Babar350 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:10 pm

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DaveP
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by DaveP » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am

Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am

DaveP wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:55 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am
DaveP wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
[/quot

And at AC you will be underpaid for the first 4 years at flat pay!
This enormous wage divide that you believe exists between WJ and AC is inaccurate. Top end pay for the narrow body at AC is comparable to WJ.
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DaveP
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by DaveP » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:11 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am
DaveP wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
Hi Jet,
I guess you could look at it that way Jet - but the way I look at it is these guys and gals have contributed to our growth and success for likely a few years so they deserve this lift and perk.
Everyone has a choice and both companies - AC or WJ both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I honestly don’t mean to turn this thread into a bun fight but you have to admit it’s a pretty cool process now.

Cheers
Dave
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losercruiser
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by losercruiser » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:10 am

If WestJet is so great why do most of your pilots have applications in at Air Canada?
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by ant_321 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:32 am

losercruiser wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:10 am
If WestJet is so great why do most of your pilots have applications in at Air Canada?
Everyone gets it losercruiser. You’re a sky god now. All hail air canader.
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losercruiser
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by losercruiser » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:39 am

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:32 am
losercruiser wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:10 am
If WestJet is so great why do most of your pilots have applications in at Air Canada?
Everyone gets it losercruiser. You’re a sky god now. All hail air canader.
I prefer astronaut.
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fish4life
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by fish4life » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:51 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am
DaveP wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
Were people saying the same thing when jazz had their top up going? I don’t remember that, instead in condemning it you should be asking why jazz doesn’t get a top up as well it’s the only way the industry is going to get better.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 pm

fish4life wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:51 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am
DaveP wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi FlyAlberta!
I get it might not be exact dollars but my understanding is it’s $28,800 over 24 months. This keeps you topped up until you hit step 3 pay after 2 years. Still a fantastic uplift vs starting back at starting WJ wage sorry to mislead by saying “no pay cut”. I guess I should have said “almost no pay cut” :)
I’ll edit it!
Take care
Dave
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
Were people saying the same thing when jazz had their top up going? I don’t remember that, instead in condemning it you should be asking why jazz doesn’t get a top up as well it’s the only way the industry is going to get better.
Well first of all Jazz top up is long gone. Nobody on their roster is making the WAWCON’s before the top up was offered. Those who refused a transfer suffered a penalty.
That being said.
It’s a sad state of aviation in Canada when we’re comparing a tier 2 regional to a mainline airline which is that tier 2 airlines main competition. That’s the hard reality we face. The contract at Jazz is stronger and management actually respects it, those two reasons alone give Jazz an upper hand! Top end pay is obviously better at WJ compared to Jazz (as it should be) but at the end of the day, the fact we’re even comparing a mainline job to a regional is disappointing.
As someone who has spent many years at Jazz and WJ, firstly let me say the grass isn’t always greener. But on top of that appreciate what you have at Jazz.
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flyinhigh
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by flyinhigh » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:55 am

Lets get a couple things clear.

1) The Encore pilots negotiated to have the top up pay. No, the Encore pilots were not worried at all about any Westjet OTS hire as they are not on the property yet. The company didn't institute a top up pay what so ever, rather the pilots pushed for it as the Encore pilots did not want to take that pay cut. They voted for what the wanted and got it.

It doesn't matter what every other company has. Instead of looking at something like the "Jazz top up is long gone", ask yourself "why does Jazz still not have it?"

Maybe look at the Encore deal and say to yourself, what is good here and take it to the next negotiation of your own and keep raising the bar in the industry.
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 pm
Well first of all Jazz top up is long gone. Nobody on their roster is making the WAWCON’s before the top up was offered. Those who refused a transfer suffered a penalty.

2) Again, Collective bargaining. The Westjet pilots had huge fish to fry. They had a mandate, and quite frankly other than massive pay bumps they secured a lot of those mandates (.e, Swoop WAWCON). You say that the first two years are $28,000 under paid. What are the comparators for that assumption?

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 pm
Another way to interpret this post... All OTS candidates, you will be underpaid by approx. 28,800$ for the first two years, on top of being underpaid for the remainder of your career at WJ. AC is hiring though!
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Thorjones » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am

Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am

Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
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Hangry
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Hangry » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:54 am

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am
Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:29 pm

Hangry wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:54 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am
Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.
You can hate WestJet as much as you want... it doesn't make it a bad place to work.

You obviously have not worked in a bad place. A place where you aren't paid on time, bullied into taking unsafe aircraft, or being told to "take a piss or get off the pot" by your direct superior.
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Sharklasers » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:09 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am
Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
Ah yes I remember when Westjet groundschools had 2-5 mainline AC guys per class.... oh wait I don’t because that never happened.
“Soon it’ll flop back in the other direction” lol
don’t let facts stand in your way.
Here’s a fact though in 2019 alone AC hired 28 mainline Westjet pilots and 38 encore drivers. I believe that moved you up the list more than your retirements did.
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:21 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:09 pm
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am
Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
Ah yes I remember when Westjet groundschools had 2-5 mainline AC guys per class.... oh wait I don’t because that never happened.
“Soon it’ll flop back in the other direction” lol
don’t let facts stand in your way.
Here’s a fact though in 2019 alone AC hired 28 mainline Westjet pilots and 38 encore drivers. I believe that moved you up the list more than your retirements did.
Does it make you happy that people used to work at WestJet and now work at Air Canada?

It makes me happy that I get the schedule I want. Every day I have needed off I have gotten off. I bid for one-days so that I can be home. I haven't had a layover since October. I have the confidence that my airline will survive this recession (if it hits) because it has just gotten several billion dollars of liquid cash AND is supported by a 38 billion dollar company.

How are you going to feel when Air Transat guys are pushing you down your list? Do you deny that one side or the other is going to be upset? At that point, the AT guys WILL BE AC guys and WestJet will be dangling the treat of socialized bidding.
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by DaveP » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:03 pm

Thorjones wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:58 am
Future so bright now that even wj managements family members have resumes at AC.....
Hi Thor
That def goes both ways (as I look at the resumes daily). I don’t think it honestly says much other than it proving people want to make choices when the decision comes. Might as well hedge your bets so to speak - would you not agree?

As for the attrition - nobody is a fan of it but it will always happen and for different reasons. I’m thinking the settled “one list and top up” with likely make that decision harder for some at Encore that are thinking about the jump. When we performed a handful of exit interviews- it was pretty evident the items such as perceived faster career advancement, unsettled one list and quicker base selection were top of mind. We can scratch one off the list for sure now! We are working on the others.

My prediction is once this year (2020) is done with fatigue and duty rules for both carriers and AC has caught up with its 60-65 - things will normalize or slow in the hiring world again.

WJ will likely still be growing it’s widebody fleet (3 more Dreamliners in the next few months then 4 early next year again) and the regular ongoing narrowbody replacements/growth and adjustments - then who knows - perhaps some other rumours might come to light too.

Our retirements too, are starting to grow as well. I know I’m getting there in age too but I can still roll diesel drums just like the young guys when I fly floats in the summer!!

I think Brian Z’s network vision has a lot of merit for WJ too.

As someone mentioned - socialized bidding for holidays and scheduling is pretty sweet. Even after being here 19 years I’m still a proponent of it.
Cheers
Dave
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Hangry
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Re: One List is Back!!

Post by Hangry » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:02 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:29 pm
Hangry wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:54 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am


Of course management is going to be looking for jobs... they're the ones who have a target on their back. Onex isn't going to want to pay hundreds of people to do the jobs of tens.

As far as pilots are concerned, why wouldn't you always have an eye out? Air Canada pilots apply for WestJet too. It goes back and forth... right now it's WJ -> AC, but it'll soon flop back in the other direction.
Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.
You can hate WestJet as much as you want... it doesn't make it a bad place to work.

You obviously have not worked in a bad place. A place where you aren't paid on time, bullied into taking unsafe aircraft, or being told to "take a piss or get off the pot" by your direct superior.
No one hates WestJet. But to even infer someone is going to leave AC to sit behind 500 Encore regional pilots to go to WJ makes you sound like you’re 15.
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