MOA2

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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Yycjetdriver
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MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Any Encore pilots that can confirm a new MOA signed yesterday, with 0 layoffs for a MMG of 50hours until Dec.31st?
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FlyAlberta
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyAlberta »

Not quite the case. The 250 layoffs at Encore for May 1 are still happening. No further Q layoffs unless you cannot hold a spot once PTA bumping rights are exercised. CEWS for all pilots until program ends + partial top up for active pilots (salary not hourly. ~$5100/month for CPT ~$4600/month for FO. After CEWS ends, 50 hr MMG at applicable pay rate until end of year.
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Commonwealth
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Re: MOA2

Post by Commonwealth »

Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Commonwealth wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:22 am Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?
Yes, pilots “bumping” into Encore then become governed under the Encore CBA.
So the majority of June +6 months of 50MMG, wow. Kiss the onelist goodbye when this is all over. There is no possible way to live on Encore FO pay at 50mmg and unless you’re single and living in a dump Captain pay would be doubtful too. What’s the point in saving jobs when it’s under terrible conditions? Would be better off on EI or finding a minimal experience labour job.
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Blue42
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Re: MOA2

Post by Blue42 »

FlyAlberta wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:03 am Not quite the case. The 250 layoffs at Encore for May 1 are still happening. No further Q layoffs unless you cannot hold a spot once PTA bumping rights are exercised. CEWS for all pilots until program ends + partial top up for active pilots (salary not hourly. ~$5100/month for CPT ~$4600/month for FO. After CEWS ends, 50 hr MMG at applicable pay rate until end of year.
Not quite correct either. $4500 for Capts and $4000 for FOs per month plus, roughly $600 per in lieu of flow. After Jun 6th, unless extended, it is 50 MMG per month plus the $600. This $600 is only for Encore pilots on the property on April 16th, it will not apply to Westjet crews bumping down to Encore.
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Blue42
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Re: MOA2

Post by Blue42 »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:42 am
Commonwealth wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:22 am Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?
Yes, pilots “bumping” into Encore then become governed under the Encore CBA.
So the majority of June +6 months of 50MMG, wow. Kiss the onelist goodbye when this is all over. There is no possible way to live on Encore FO pay at 50mmg and unless you’re single and living in a dump Captain pay would be doubtful too. What’s the point in saving jobs when it’s under terrible conditions? Would be better off on EI or finding a minimal experience labour job.
At FO pay EI pay would be similar or a bit better but Capt pay would still be better, depending on the tax rate.
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jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

So if I understand it correctly the Encore MEC blew their load to save jobs.

150 or so jobs preserved at reduced wages until the end of the year.

In the end almost every Encore pilot on the property today gets flushed and they leave a dirty turd for the guys bumping down.

Maybe they save a handful of jobs because they soured the milk so badly for guys that wanted to bump. As if it wasn’t bad enough already to bump down and get step 1 pay.

Nothing materially gained for the Encore guys on property.

Only the company wins.

Sadly - the pilot transfer agreement is likely dead after this.

Respect to all.

JJJ
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

jjj wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:00 pm So if I understand it correctly the Encore MEC blew their load to save jobs.

150 or so jobs preserved at reduced wages until the end of the year.

In the end almost every Encore pilot on the property today gets flushed and they leave a dirty turd for the guys bumping down.

Maybe they save a handful of jobs because they soured the milk so badly for guys that wanted to bump. As if it wasn’t bad enough already to bump down and get step 1 pay.

Nothing materially gained for the Encore guys on property.

Only the company wins.

Sadly - the pilot transfer agreement is likely dead after this.

Respect to all.

JJJ
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

+1
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Sharklasers
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Re: MOA2

Post by Sharklasers »

Brilliant.
The encore MEC is peeing in the pool. By making the positions basically the same pay as EI they reduce the amount of mainline pilots willing to flow to Encore drastically and save many of their pilots jobs.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: MOA2

Post by hurtin'albertan »

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Last edited by hurtin'albertan on Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sharklasers
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Re: MOA2

Post by Sharklasers »

They are betting on not many people going for it, Who would choose to go pull flap and gear on a dash 8 for free?
The cherry on top is the extra 600 a month for ‘original encore’ but not for you, I wonder if they will get flight bag stickers printed up?
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sstaurus
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Re: MOA2

Post by sstaurus »

Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:55 am Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.
Well there’s a lot of people who believe that was their goal, unfortunately for them many of those people are so hangry/disappointed with the companies handling of the layoffs they’re bidding the positions anyways to create training costs and backlog for the company.
There is a point when taking concessions where jobs aren’t worth saving. This MOA certainly surpasses that line, when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.
Not to mention who you’re helping when taking concessions, there will be a spoil up of some sorts when this is over. That will be costly and without this MOA and more layoffs it would have been move expensive, but to who? ONEX
Westjet is a privately owned company, by Onex who is currently throwing half a billion around capitalizing on the down market. That’s who you’ve helped when voting in an MOA that’ll pay you border line poverty wages.
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Babar350
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Re: MOA2

Post by Babar350 »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:36 am
sstaurus wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:55 am Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.
Well there’s a lot of people who believe that was their goal, unfortunately for them many of those people are so hangry/disappointed with the companies handling of the layoffs they’re bidding the positions anyways to create training costs and backlog for the company.
There is a point when taking concessions where jobs aren’t worth saving. This MOA certainly surpasses that line, when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.
Not to mention who you’re helping when taking concessions, there will be a spoil up of some sorts when this is over. That will be costly and without this MOA and more layoffs it would have been move expensive, but to who? ONEX
Westjet is a privately owned company, by Onex who is currently throwing half a billion around capitalizing on the down market. That’s who you’ve helped when voting in an MOA that’ll pay you border line poverty wages.
Help me understand how a 4500$ captain pay will be less or equal that EI.
By the way , what did you want? No agreement and all Encore pilots on the street to give room to mainline guy?
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Last edited by Babar350 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
sstaurus
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Re: MOA2

Post by sstaurus »

Those initial figures are only as long as the CEWS program lives. After that, 50mmg till end of year. It's only an FO spot that will be marginal compared to EI.
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Babar350
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Re: MOA2

Post by Babar350 »

so 50 x 80 is nowhere near EI. Still willing to understand this statement
when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.
sstaurus wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:47 am Those initial figures are only as long as the CEWS program lives. After that, 50mmg till end of year. It's only an FO spot that will be marginal compared to EI.
FO would be 50 x 50 ( because there will be no junior FO ) + 600, which makes $3100. So again, nowhere near EI.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: MOA2

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Ah the scorched earth strategy.
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Stratopaused
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Re: MOA2

Post by Stratopaused »

Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. :roll: Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water. I can't speak for the MEC, but I really doubt they were trying to create a poison pill to deter jet pilots from bumping down; otherwise, they wouldn't have kept the pay at double the EI max. Maybe they assumed the WestJet MEC would negotiate a similar agreement to mitigate layoffs and that no one would have to bump. Maybe they thought the extra 142 positions would be enough to accommodate all the jet pilots who bid to come down, but looking at the layoff stats I don't think anyone is under the illusion that a single current Encore pilot will be left employed. If anything, the MEC just negotiated for an extra 142 jet pilots to stay employed, even if it's at lower pay than you wanted. What did you expect, that you could be Dash FOs for jet captain pay? The negotiated FO pay is actually higher than what FOs made before on a 75-hour block, as a way of compensating captains who get demoted, so half of you will be better-off anyway. You never cared about low pay at Encore until it possibly affected you; you have no sympathy for the FOs who have been living on $3300/month and who will be making $2000/month until the CERB runs out, after which they won't get maxed out for EI. Boy, we really pity the guys taking our jobs who will be making at least double what we are while we're off work. :roll:
In the meantime, as a way of lashing out at someone, anyone, for a situation that is out of everyone's control, you're going to repeal the PTA. Everyone currently on the property is grandfathered in, so you won't be punishing any of the people you hold responsible for the MOA, but you'll be eliminating the bump-down language that was a sticking point with the PTA in the first place. You'll prevent anyone who hasn't officially moved to Encore from bumping, resulting in their layoffs, and allow the company to recall 100% of Encore pilots without bringing back a single WestJet or Swoop pilot. In the future, management will be able to lay off every jet pilot before touching a single Encore pilot, and everyone already working here retains our positions on the One List. Brilliant strategy, Crassus. (-_-)ゞ
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carnie
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Re: MOA2

Post by carnie »

Just wondering how you guys are coming up with 5100 per month based in the CEWS. Its a maximum of 75% of 58700 which equates to just over 44000 per year which would then be approx 1300 a pay. Without the 25% top up how did you come up with that figure?
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