MOA2

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ
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Impact
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Re: MOA2

Post by Impact »

DirtyDashDriver, I have to disagree. What we see now is a situation where instead of ripping off the bandage and suturing the wound, some people want to keep piling on the bandaids with new terms/conditions/negotiations. It becomes untenable. Why these people want to do that, I'm unsure. I do however think they lack the humility to admit they were wrong, and are now doubling down to save face.

As George Taylor mentioned, unintended consequences. From my point of view however, these consequences are/were entirely foreseeable.

There's something to be said about the "keep it simple" method. Everybody knows the rules. Everybody plays by the rules. Don't change the rules. Easy, predictable, fair. The onelist wasn't predictable since it was an industry outlier. We are now paying the price.

Once again, enjoy.
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jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

To address a comment from above about the cautionary note to beware cancelling the one list because of the whipsaw threat with RJs.

Here’s how that plays out.

You all get flushed.

Your MEC and your LEC get flushed.

Your bargaining unit is full up with ex 737 guys who want to go back there.

No shiny jets at Encore anytime soon.

The opportunity is always there to row in the same direction as we once were.

To all whom disparage the 737 drivers from Encore - let the outcome I posted or something similar percolate in your minds as a possibility.

Be kind to each other and always play the long game in Aviation.
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Re: MOA2

Post by Red1 »

I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.
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Checklist
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Re: MOA2

Post by Checklist »

Stratopaused wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:39 am Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. :roll: Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water.
The decision was already made when all parties signed the PTA. We’re just asking for follow through.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MOA2

Post by ALPApolicy »

Red1 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:56 pm I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.
Explain to me how existing Encore pilots will be treated better ($625 extra per month) than Encore pilots who will bump from WestJet? Oh wait, the Encore MEC did what it was supposed to do, it looked out for the interests of its existing members (NOT its future members), unlike the WJ MEC who sold out the seniority of some of its existing members in favor of its future members.

Got it.

Imagine if Q400 pilots were WJ pilots and Encore did not exist. Does anyone think the MEC would have given extra money to them and not to the 737/787 pilots?
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

Checklist wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:28 am
Stratopaused wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:39 am Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. :roll: Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water.
The decision was already made when all parties signed the PTA. We’re just asking for follow through.
Could you please explain what is not being followed through?
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:39 am
Red1 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:56 pm I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.
Explain to me how existing Encore pilots will be treated better ($625 extra per month) than Encore pilots who will bump from WestJet? Oh wait, the Encore MEC did what it was supposed to do, it looked out for the interests of its existing members (NOT its future members), unlike the WJ MEC who sold out the seniority of some of its existing members in favor of its future members.

Got it.

In return for this sold out seniority of some of it’s members you got the opportunity to take one of the 293 jobs available at Encore right now instead of unemployment. You want to make the argument for EI over Encore? I’m all ears.

The $625 that we at Encore are going to receive is compensation for the fact that it may likely be years before we ever flow to the jet now and before that happens all the 737 will be recalled to their spots at mainline making considerable more money than Encore pilots well before that happens.

The glass isn’t always half empty. The ability to bump me out of my position at Encore is what is fair and I am not complaining about it. What bothers me is when guys are disrespectful and unappreciative to the fact that there are situations much worse than what is being offered at ENcore right now.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MOA2

Post by ALPApolicy »

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.
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Gear Jerker
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Re: MOA2

Post by Gear Jerker »

ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:58 am This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.
The $625 was negotiated in lieu of REIP, which is a flow penalty the company owes Encore pilots each year if they flow less than 70 pilots. WJ pilots aren't eligible for REIP. Simple as that.

Are the pitchforkers really sure that they aren't simply really unhappy with the current realities of the world, as we all are, and the Encore MEC is a scapegoat?

Didnt the Encore MEC do exactly what it's supposed to; follow the mandate of its members and execute it the best it possibly can? And by the way, the mandate was to save jobs. The negotiation of MOA2 preserved 25% more jobs.

Call me naive, but I would prefer reduced pay til December 31, allowing more of my colleagues staying employed, while also having a career to return to at the end.

Perhaps if your MEC would have started negotiating layoff mitigation prior to the reduction bid close, your frustration would be directed where it belongs.
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:58 am This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.
You get my job at Encore..

Not good enough? Take EI instead.
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Edelweiss air
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Re: MOA2

Post by Edelweiss air »

jjj wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:16 am The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ
We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: MOA2

Post by FlyingMonkey »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:01 pm Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.
Right, so the pilot groups respective MEC shouldn’t have been allowed to negotiate on behalf of it’s own pilot group?

What planet are you on?
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by Yycjetdriver »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:11 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:01 pm Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.
Right, so the pilot groups respective MEC shouldn’t have been allowed to negotiate on behalf of it’s own pilot group?

What planet are you on?
The layoffs number were released already at that point, how many of those current Encore members would have retained their jobs? It’s a group with one foot out the door, negotiated terms that basically none of that MEC ot it’s members will ever even work under.
On what planet does that make sense?

Maybe the Mainline pilots maybe have the chance to return the favour. Say this drags on for 12+ months. Encore becomes entire made up of former jet guys. Things start to ramp back up, those jet guys get notice they’ll be heading back to the jet and the layed off Encore guys get notice 80% of them get to come back. The jet guys decide to negotiate an Encore MOA for massive pay cuts and concessions, I mean who cares they won’t have to work under those conditions and maybe they’ll make more jobs out of it. Who cares what the people who have to work under those conditions want because we’ll be gone anyways...... oh and the PTA will probably be gone.
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: MOA2

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.
As was already mentioned, but I want to expand on it a little, the $625 covers the REIP. That part of the contract was not available to mainline pilots no matter what MOU would be passed. If you want a situation that is fair to all, then a mainline pilot would have to give up their right to accrue YOS while on a bump down to Encore. I am going to assume that is not something mainline pilots want to do. Ergo, an Encore pilot receives the benefit of the REIP payment where a mainline pilot continues to accrue YOS.

And no, Encore pilots did not decide mainline pilots should be treated differently.
Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions.
Agreed. In the down bid scenario with the combined list, both MEC's should have been involved. However, the reverse would also have to be true then, and that would require a combined MEC. I can only assume that the two are working together and that perhaps this is nothing more than act one? I am trying to be optimistic about such things.
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jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

Edelweiss air wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:19 am
jjj wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:16 am The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ
We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...
...at the ultimate cost of 737 jobs higher up the food chain. And at the cost of worse terms for those bumping down.

Here's what you don't understand Edelweiss - the Encore MEC does not operate in a silo. Your MEC affects the jobs of people senior to them that pushed for a one list. They got the rug pulled out from under them.

You want to save jobs? Stand by the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CAs of the bargaining groups under the WS group of companies.

Collectively hold the line against the company to handle lay-offs properly.

Dummies.
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Re: MOA2

Post by Gear Jerker »

jjj wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:15 pm
Edelweiss air wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:19 am
jjj wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:16 am The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ
We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...
...at the ultimate cost of 737 jobs higher up the food chain. And at the cost of worse terms for those bumping down.

Here's what you don't understand Edelweiss - the Encore MEC does not operate in a silo. Your MEC affects the jobs of people senior to them that pushed for a one list. They got the rug pulled out from under them.

You want to save jobs? Stand by the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CAs of the bargaining groups under the WS group of companies.

Collectively hold the line against the company to handle lay-offs properly.

Dummies.
Hi jjj,

First of all I hope you're holding up ok during these times.

Respectfully,

- How did any of the Encore MEC's actions cost 737 jobs? Keep in mind, the company created its fleet plans.

- What are the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CA that you are referring to? Keep in mind, the bumpdown clause from the PTA is being used. There is language in the CA directing the association to engage in layoff mitigation discussions. The Encore MEC received a very clear mandate from Encore pilots to prioritize preserving jobs at Encore in these negotiations - which they did. The survey occurred after MOA1. In MOA2, quite frankly they did as well as they could in achieving the mandate. So please, be specific, what expectations are you referring to that they should be standing by?

- Hold the line against the company: What exactly should the Encore MEC have done? Their job is to represent, and protect the interests of Encore pilots, as the WJ MEC's job is the interest of WJ pilots. Again, the WJ MEC still hadn't begun layoff mitigation discussions, even after the reduction bid had closed. The 700 May 1 layoff notices, and the 1000 June 1 layoff notices were sent out many days before the PSB closed. The Encore MEC successfully preserved an additional 25% of Encore pilot jobs, with additional protections - which Westjet pilots will soon occupy. Are you sure that your frustration is focused where it belongs?

Be well.
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jjj
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Re: MOA2

Post by jjj »

Stated again in another way.

If you don’t believe there is some cross pollination between the bargaining groups and some accountability then you are silly.

If you think the Encore MECs sole responsibility is to their bargaining unit then you are silly.

BEDE said it well above. The Encore MEC effectively repudiated the Transfer agreement.

I’m short on time to discuss this more specifically today.

For now you can ask the Encore MEC how many thanks they have received in the last few days from the WS MEC and LECs.

Cheers.

Best of luck to all to have some kind of half decent summer.
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Re: MOA2

Post by flyinhigh »

Up to this point, the water has been so muddied from the beginning with the Union and Company relations at Westjet and quite frankly been the 100% opposite at Encore and it shows in the relationship between the two, the CBA and LOU's that have been negotiated and with how fast the Encore MEC can get things done.

As a former Encore pilot who worked with the Union and Company it is very frustrating and hard to look out for your current pilots interest while balancing the mainline brothers and sisters views. At the end of the day however, you have a mandate from your pilots and you must follow it. One comment was that they should not have been aloud to renegotiate items to save Westjet pilots when they bump down. Well if thats not a severe lack in duty of fair representation I don't know what is which than leads to a whole other slew of issues.

Personally knowing all the members of the Encore MEC, there is no way in hell they did this to sully any chance of bump down. They have done one thing, just like every other MEC (like ours at Transat) and did their best to save as many jobs as possible. In fact, it sounds like although the wage is lower they just saved over 100 Westjet pilot jobs for bump down. So its not full pay, well nobody is at full pay right now, just look at your #1 competitor in AC.

The Encore group has continually been able to negotiate better arrangements than the mainline counter part, be it from stronger CBA language or the REIP (Which I also personally know struck a huge cord at mainline as I fielded many calls from mainline pilots about how they felt thrown under the bus because they left Encore 9 months prior and where not eligible for it), but again the job of the MEC is to its current members.

Lastly, two of your mainline negotiators are quite possibly the greatest guys out there and to have. They will get things done, and in a good way to make this better for the mainline group. You just have to trust them... The biggest issue is that, from the beginning the cannon was pointed and didn't waiver at the companies head which sewered the relationship and trust. The guys in there now will be able to rebuild that trust and better your WAWCON in time.

As for now, the industry is shit. Just look around, instead of fighting every chance we get we ALL need to stick together and rebuild to what we used to have.
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