tbayav8er wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
Recalling 30 pilots for Oct 1st, and MMG going to 70 hrs for the month of October.....A step in the right direction at least.
tbayav8er wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
Recalling 30 pilots for Oct 1st, and MMG going to 70 hrs for the month of October.....A step in the right direction at least.
Good news. What was the pandemic MMG at before this?
They just changed it to 47 recalls. I believe that puts Encore at 339 active pilots and 203 still on furlough. MMG pre-covid was 75 hours. Encore pilots still have the 10%ESP suspended at the moment as well though.
Recalling out of seniority. A step in the wrong direction yet again. WJ treasured the one list now they aren't following it? It's only good for them when they want it to be. Glad folk are getting back flying but common, lets not allow any leap frogging.
Guilden wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:17 pm
Recalling out of seniority. A step in the wrong direction yet again. WJ treasured the one list now they aren't following it? It's only good for them when they want it to be. Glad folk are getting back flying but common, lets not allow any leap frogging.
Guilden wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:17 pm
Recalling out of seniority. A step in the wrong direction yet again. WJ treasured the one list now they aren't following it? It's only good for them when they want it to be. Glad folk are getting back flying but common, lets not allow any leap frogging.
It’s not out of seniority. They’re recalling laid off Encore pilots in seniority. People from mainline had one chance to bump into Encore using the Pilot transfer agreement and some chose not to for whatever reason and chose lay-off.
Guilden wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am
Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off
Guilden wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am
Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off
There is also furloughed mainline pilots who did bid FO, couldn’t hold it then and could now that are being passed over.
While you’re description of “how it works” and how the PTA came into play during the first round of furloughs is correct. It doesn’t mean that the order isn’t being broken now. If it was to be completely fair and open they would have announced a vacancy bid with 47 encore positions and let the entire “one list” bid on those positions. That did not happen, if it was to be a true “one list“ there’s no reason it should have been a one shot deal.
Guilden wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am
Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off
There is also furloughed mainline pilots who did bid FO, couldn’t hold it then and could now that are being passed over.
While you’re description of “how it works” and how the PTA came into play during the first round of furloughs is correct. It doesn’t mean that the order isn’t being broken now. If it was to be completely fair and open they would have announced a vacancy bid with 47 encore positions and let the entire “one list” bid on those positions. That did not happen, if it was to be a true “one list“ there’s no reason it should have been a one shot deal.
Who said it was a true one list? Nevertheless you made my point. If they couldn’t hold any position whatsoever at Encore in May (bizarre) then the point of bumping into Encore via the PTA is moot. It’s that simple. People talk as if the entire list is open to everyone at all times. It is not. The list simply tracks date of hire in WJ group. The Pilot TRANSFER agreement is what allows mobility into another bargaining unit’s roster. What you’re arguing would be like a senior Encore pilot that COULD have flowed a few years ago but chose not to and he technically has the seniority to hold mainline doesn’t mean he gets to. Because his window of opportunity to TRANSFER has closed while others have recall rights to mainline even though they’re technically junior to the Encore guy. See what I mean?
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off
There is also furloughed mainline pilots who did bid FO, couldn’t hold it then and could now that are being passed over.
While you’re description of “how it works” and how the PTA came into play during the first round of furloughs is correct. It doesn’t mean that the order isn’t being broken now. If it was to be completely fair and open they would have announced a vacancy bid with 47 encore positions and let the entire “one list” bid on those positions. That did not happen, if it was to be a true “one list“ there’s no reason it should have been a one shot deal.
Who said it was a true one list? Nevertheless you made my point. If they couldn’t hold any position whatsoever at Encore in May (bizarre) then the point of bumping into Encore via the PTA is moot. It’s that simple. People talk as if the entire list is open to everyone at all times. It is not. The list simply tracks date of hire in WJ group. The Pilot TRANSFER agreement is what allows mobility into another bargaining unit’s roster. What you’re arguing would be like a senior Encore pilot that COULD have flowed a few years ago but chose not to and he technically has the seniority to hold mainline doesn’t mean he gets to. Because his window of opportunity to TRANSFER has closed while others have recall rights to mainline even though they’re technically junior to the Encore guy. See what I mean?
Yes I get what you’re saying and that’s why I said in my previous post you’re correct in describing the way it’s working now. I don’t care about that, what I’m saying is that it’s wrong the way it is and there’s going to be many(maybe 47) pissed off pilots.
There is also furloughed mainline pilots who did bid FO, couldn’t hold it then and could now that are being passed over.
While you’re description of “how it works” and how the PTA came into play during the first round of furloughs is correct. It doesn’t mean that the order isn’t being broken now. If it was to be completely fair and open they would have announced a vacancy bid with 47 encore positions and let the entire “one list” bid on those positions. That did not happen, if it was to be a true “one list“ there’s no reason it should have been a one shot deal.
Who said it was a true one list? Nevertheless you made my point. If they couldn’t hold any position whatsoever at Encore in May (bizarre) then the point of bumping into Encore via the PTA is moot. It’s that simple. People talk as if the entire list is open to everyone at all times. It is not. The list simply tracks date of hire in WJ group. The Pilot TRANSFER agreement is what allows mobility into another bargaining unit’s roster. What you’re arguing would be like a senior Encore pilot that COULD have flowed a few years ago but chose not to and he technically has the seniority to hold mainline doesn’t mean he gets to. Because his window of opportunity to TRANSFER has closed while others have recall rights to mainline even though they’re technically junior to the Encore guy. See what I mean?
Yes I get what you’re saying and that’s why I said in my previous post you’re correct in describing the way it’s working now. I don’t care about that, what I’m saying is that it’s wrong the way it is and there’s going to be many(maybe 47) pissed off pilots.
Ok yes totally agree it’s a shit sandwich served with a side of diarrhea soup. Just don’t want mainline pilots thinking it’ll somehow be changed any time soon.
Blowin' In The Wind wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm
“Fair”, whatever, whatever. I’m continually surprised that pilots don’t have an intimate knowledge of the contracts of which they voted in favour...
We very much do. The company just does what it wants and our union also.
Not that they didn’t have the seniority, but they took a voluntary lay off, and now facing a reality-check after their summer off, decide they want to now work for encore. IMO they had their chance.
Guilden wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am
Wrong, there's mainline pilots that did bit it but couldn't hold it at the time but can now.
I understand that but it just doesn’t work that way. There was one opportunity to seek employment at Encore using the PTA and that was upon lay-off. It’s not in perpetuity like we wish it was. If you bid to go to Encore ONLY as a captain and couldn’t hold it then you basically turned down employment as Encore FO and chose lay-off instead Those are the only rights the PTA affords mainline pilots as it’s written. It was communicated at the time of the bid and apparently supported by the ALPA MEC. I didn’t write the PTA and certainly would have done it differently but just think it almost passed WITHOUT a right to bump at lay-off
Are you dumb, stupid or dumb... huh?
If it's truly ONE LIST then that WJ pilot who couldn't hold the position then but can now should get first dibs.
My guess is WestJet doesn't want them to go to Encore because that means a full course and now that 6 months have passed and we're 6 months closer to the end of this pandemic they don't want to spend that money knowing they'll be back at ML in short order.
