"Three possible Transat suitors say they are not interested in acquiring struggling airline"

[RRJetPilot]

Cant compare the US. They are a proper country unlike this banana republic.

[alkaseltzer]

EXACTLY

I'm all for remaining with a seniority system when it comes to bidding/vacation etc. But for experience, if you have 20 years flying for Emirates and come to AC should you be at year one pay? No, you should be top scale... IMO.

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

[simply_no_one]

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

No. I'm promoting the idea where companies put value on experience. Nothing to do with national anything.

[TFTMB heavy]

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

No. I'm promoting the idea where companies put value on experience. Nothing to do with national anything.

The problem here is not the companies, it's the pilots. We are unionized and do not have a college or a professional association. We do not control our licensing either. The first thing you hear from pilots at a company when they hear there might be a merger is BOTL. Why would that company pay an experienced pilot more than another year 1 pilot? We are our own worst enemies.

[RippleRock]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

[Sharklasers]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

People want their cake and to eat yours too.
They the want the fast upgrades and/or big money and/or big equipment and growth that comes with overseas or start ups or leisure but they also want the security of a legacy carrier if things go sideways for them. Discounting immediately that if established companies were presented with the option of hiring a year 1 pilot for $60000 or an experienced also year one pilot for $300000 it’s obvious which they would choose. In the Leisure pilots perfect world AC would become their retirement job after spending 20 years enjoying the pluses that come with working leisure, then they would slide over once they can hold that 330k a year job with a good schedule. This would have a tremendous negative impact for the pilots who have been at that carrier for years.

Life is about risk, we as professionals need to weight the pros and cons of working for any operator and be prepared for the consequences of our decisions. Without government intervention soon there will be many pilots in Canada and Quebec who will soon have an opportunity to decide again whether they wish to chase money/metal of an LLC/Leisure/foreign or attempt for the security of a flag.

[TFTMB heavy]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

Life doesn’t always work out that way.

[TFTMB heavy]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

People want their cake and to eat yours too.
They the want the fast upgrades and/or big money and/or big equipment and growth that comes with overseas or start ups or leisure but they also want the security of a legacy carrier if things go sideways for them. Discounting immediately that if established companies were presented with the option of hiring a year 1 pilot for $60000 or an experienced also year one pilot for $300000 it’s obvious which they would choose. In the Leisure pilots perfect world AC would become their retirement job after spending 20 years enjoying the pluses that come with working leisure, then they would slide over once they can hold that 330k a year job with a good schedule. This would have a tremendous negative impact for the pilots who have been at that carrier for years.

Life is about risk, we as professionals need to weight the pros and cons of working for any operator and be prepared for the consequences of our decisions. Without government intervention soon there will be many pilots in Canada and Quebec who will soon have an opportunity to decide again whether they wish to chase money/metal of an LLC/Leisure/foreign or attempt for the security of a flag.

Never heard anyone at Transat say that. Everyone was happy to retire there.

[altiplano]

I always hear things like doctors don't start at the bottom when they go to a new hospital... except often, yeah, they do.

My friend is a radiologist, he went to a new rad group at a new hospital. He's experienced, coming from a major cancer centre but wanted to work with this different group for the larger variety of work and 2 of his friends from med school are in the group. Not only did he have to buy in and start out taking lower pay on his work than the other rads in his group with the same experience, he has to kick up part of his take to the other "senior" guys as long as he's junior. When another new guy comes in he'll have to do the same no matter where his background is.

He joined BOTL.

How about engineers? New firm and you want in?
You buy in, partners take a cut.
Architects? Lawyers? same same.
The other lawyers are like fock you pay me.

We're a little different, but not too far off. At least we don't have to buy in... yet...

[goldeneagle]

How about engineers? New firm and you want in?
You buy in, partners take a cut.

Really ?

In my earlier years as an engineer, never was I asked to 'buy in' for a position. I brought a combination of expertise and experience specialized to a field, the conversation was more like 'what kind of numbers will be required to get you to accept an offer ?'

I started my own company more than 20 years ago, and in that length of time, have never asked anybody to 'buy in' to a position.

Me thinks you are confusing a partnership situation with an employee situation. They are absolutely not the same. When buying in that way, you are buying a seat at the big boys table, and with it comes direct say on company operations. That's a far cry from the 'hired help' role of an airline pilot.

[altiplano]

Yes friend of mine, junior partner at a mid sized Canadian firm. You want to make the bucks that's the path they told me. You can't just show up at a firm and expect the top pay.

Not exactly parallel, but not dissimilar either.

[indieadventurer]

The fact that everyone, regardless of their background and experience, starts at year 1 pay makes you wonder why we don’t value experience. Guess the job really is that easy nowadays.

[simply_no_one]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

You can go BOTL, while still being compensated for your experience. Like I said, airlines in the USA are already doing this. Your seniority number doesn't change, but your pay does.

It started with giving people who had ATPL's year 2-3 pay instead of year 1 at some regionals. Now there's a bunch that will hire you at your current YOS pay rate, but you go BOTL for seniority. Nothing wrong with that.

Should someone who flew for Qatar for 10 years in the left seat of a widebody come home to Canada and get dumped to 55k a year? I don't think they should. Experience should count for something.

Keep in mind I'm talking real experience here, not some ATPL 2500 hour pilot jumping around.

[redbusdriver]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

You can go BOTL, while still being compensated for your experience. Like I said, airlines in the USA are already doing this. Your seniority number doesn't change, but your pay does.

It started with giving people who had ATPL's year 2-3 pay instead of year 1 at some regionals. Now there's a bunch that will hire you at your current YOS pay rate, but you go BOTL for seniority. Nothing wrong with that.

Should someone who flew for Qatar for 10 years in the left seat of a widebody come home to Canada and get dumped to 55k a year? I don't think they should. Experience should count for something.

Keep in mind I'm talking real experience here, not some ATPL 2500 hour pilot jumping around.

i agree with that, botl but with yos pay, so many issues would be solved and prevented and everyone stays happy

[Sharklasers]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

You can go BOTL, while still being compensated for your experience. Like I said, airlines in the USA are already doing this. Your seniority number doesn't change, but your pay does.

It started with giving people who had ATPL's year 2-3 pay instead of year 1 at some regionals. Now there's a bunch that will hire you at your current YOS pay rate, but you go BOTL for seniority. Nothing wrong with that.

Should someone who flew for Qatar for 10 years in the left seat of a widebody come home to Canada and get dumped to 55k a year? I don't think they should. Experience should count for something.

Keep in mind I'm talking real experience here, not some ATPL 2500 hour pilot jumping around.

You would effectively freeze out airline experienced pilots from ever going to AC or Westjet again.
The company would never hire someone they have to pay 300k to when they could just take a 704 or Jazz captain and pay them 55k like they have been doing successfully for decades.

[Hangry]

.

[altiplano]

Maybe you should just go where you want to work in the first place, at earliest opportunity? Like where you want to live, where you want to retire, put in the time to get the seniority and the paycheque.

Yeah timing is everything, but the cycle turns over every few years, lots of chances to jump in and get your number.

Making too much money? Having too much fun? Those are your choices.

Other guys chose to put in their time... get their number.

[charlo]

Maybe you should just go where you want to work in the first place, at earliest opportunity? Like where you want to live, where you want to retire, put in the time to get the seniority and the paycheque.

Yeah timing is everything, but the cycle turns over every few years, lots of chances to jump in and get your number.

Making too much money? Having too much fun? Those are your choices.

Other guys chose to put in their time... get their number.

Seriously ?? Wow you truly have no idea how lucky you have to be to end up at x company. I guess you work at AC right ? Been trying for years to get to AC but never got a call so ended up at transat, I had no choice, why would I put up with 703's ridiculous pay and schedule and lack of benefits ? Even while flying for transat I was still applying at AC. So no, you don't always get to choose your employer unless you're a girl or are a minority, AC love those guys...

[altiplano]

Maybe you should just go where you want to work in the first place, at earliest opportunity? Like where you want to live, where you want to retire, put in the time to get the seniority and the paycheque.

Yeah timing is everything, but the cycle turns over every few years, lots of chances to jump in and get your number.

Making too much money? Having too much fun? Those are your choices.

Other guys chose to put in their time... get their number.

Seriously ?? Wow you truly have no idea how lucky you have to be to end up at x company. I guess you work at AC right ? Been trying for years to get to AC but never got a call so ended up at transat, I had no choice, why would I put up with 703's ridiculous pay and schedule and lack of benefits ? Even while flying for transat I was still applying at AC. So no, you don't always get to choose your employer unless you're a girl or are a minority, AC love those guys...

Last posting 10 years ago about how to find a job on the dock... now you're flying a 705 jet!

Good for you... keep applying...

I'm really talking about experienced guys that choose to spend 20 years in the M.E... not you...

[charlo]

Last posting 10 years ago about how to find a job on the dock... now you're flying a 705 jet!

Good for you... keep applying...

I'm really talking about experienced guys that choose to spend 20 years in the M.E... not you...

Regardless, my point still stands, you don't get to choose your employer most of the time regardless of your experience. I wanted AC for stability but couldn't and no I won't keep applying, this thing is a pipe dream.