DOH merge.

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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Fri May 17, 2019 10:13 am

Habslover wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:03 am
TFTMB Heavy,

Who are you? Do you fly the uh A tree turdy? I think not!
Are you 60 or are you 16 playing de flight Simu Lator???

You call me a troll, Ha. My wife call me the same thing when I’m down between er legs, yes! Both times I am enjoying myself....

Anyway, I have a departure to make to make my was across de Atlantic to the coast of France. My partner is also very ‘appy to join AC we both have big dreams to fly the Boeing 777. He figured he will be top 10%! It is truly amazing.

On a nodder note, who is in charge of de training? I would like to join the training dept. as checker as soon as possible.

Have a great day friends.
That's some high level shit.
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TheStig
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TheStig » Fri May 17, 2019 10:35 am

Wow that escalated quickly!

I’m excited about the AC purchase, I believe it has a lot of potential. Rouge has helped AC become competitive on a cost basis with TS and made this acquisition possible. The missing element has been what Transat brings to the table; the tour company, relationships with hotels, the non-airline business.

Once the deal is finalized Air Canada will unveil how it’s businesses will develop. It doesn’t make sense to keep Transat operating independently long term, keep rouge operating as is and have a mainline brand. 3 separate A320 fleets? Two leisure airlines, things are going to change. I could see rouge being rolled into Transat, they’re roughly the same size, the flying is the same, as are the bases, maybe rouge/Transat is a suitable baseline index for seniority?

Once the business plans become known it’s important that the pilot groups work together. Immediately everyone discusses seniority, but the worst possible thing that could happen it to maintain 2 separate lists as both groups would be forced to undercut each other for aircraft/flying.

The pilot contract will be renegotiated, pay rates, scope, pensions, everything. It’s important that the two groups aren’t squabbling over seniority while this is taking place. Obviously nothing is going to happen overnight, but it’s important for hurdles to be cleared prudently. The Delta/Northwest merger rewrote the book and Delta has been untouchable in the industry for the past 10 years. WestJet will be able to gets it house in order much more simply than AC/TS, I’d hate to loose another decade fighting over seniority.
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Dry Guy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Dry Guy » Fri May 17, 2019 3:03 pm

What percentage of Transat pilots are currently at which bases? I'm curious where they will be likely bidding for in the future.
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:30 pm

What percentage of Transat pilots are currently at which bases? I'm curious where they will be likely bidding for in the future
I would say:
45% YUL
55% YYZ(of which more than 50% are waiting for a spot in YUL)
0.1% YVR
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Fri May 17, 2019 3:30 pm

TheStig wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:35 am
The pilot contract will be renegotiated, pay rates, scope, pensions, everything. It’s important that the two groups aren’t squabbling over seniority while this is taking place. Obviously nothing is going to happen overnight, but it’s important for hurdles to be cleared prudently. The Delta/Northwest merger rewrote the book and Delta has been untouchable in the industry for the past 10 years. WestJet will be able to gets it house in order much more simply than AC/TS, I’d hate to loose another decade fighting over seniority.
You hit the nail on the head. Air Canada's downfall and the reason it lags so far behind the rest of north America is the years and years of seniority squabble. I'm a very very new hire at AC and this will effect me in many ways. That being said if having 500+ pilots slide ahead of me means the abolishment of the 4 year status pay, raises for everyone and improvements to scope and the DC pension then that is something I have no issue with. Use this as leverage to bring some significant gains for everyone not just the top %10 widebody Captains.

The second the pilots get caught up in a battle over seniority, CR has already won.
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Last edited by thesimplelife on Fri May 17, 2019 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dry Guy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Dry Guy » Fri May 17, 2019 4:01 pm

FL320 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:30 pm
What percentage of Transat pilots are currently at which bases? I'm curious where they will be likely bidding for in the future
I would say:
45% YUL
55% YYZ(of which more than 50% are waiting for a spot in YUL)
0.1% YVR
Thanks. Sounds like it's going to be tough for people to land a YUL spot.
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Fri May 17, 2019 4:18 pm

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:01 pm
FL320 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:30 pm
What percentage of Transat pilots are currently at which bases? I'm curious where they will be likely bidding for in the future
I would say:
45% YUL
55% YYZ(of which more than 50% are waiting for a spot in YUL)
0.1% YVR
Thanks. Sounds like it's going to be tough for people to land a YUL spot.
It's already always been Sr. But look at it this way, with YYZ getting full YUL is likely the next big hub. They've already expanded Jazz out there to bring in a lot of feed for overseas flights. Add the gates and slots AT had I don't really see that there would be a decrease in overall flights out of YUL.
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fruitloops
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fruitloops » Fri May 17, 2019 6:21 pm

If the wording in this message means anything Air Transat could remain its own brand/operation for the foreseeable future at least and no merge short term.

1. By connecting Transat to our own network
2. ....adding Transat services to our network would create new North American market opportunities
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Last edited by fruitloops on Sat May 18, 2019 9:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 8:56 am

It is estimated 8-14 months to get through all the regulator huddles. The competition bureau may require divestiture of part of Transat like what happened in the AC/CDN merger. CDN regional was put up for sale. In the end there were no takers and folded in to Jazz.

So while all this is going on, of course the two companies will create synergies while not merged. The ACPA contract does not allow for Transat to run separate. I listened to an AC manager two days ago. The plan is to merge Transat into mainline. Rouge may as well.

How about everyone step back from the keyboard. Opinions are like azzwholes. Everyone’s got one. If we don’t come up with a fair integration on our own? The ONLY opinion that will matter is an arbitrators.

From experience. Everyone is better off with a negotiated list. Don’t follow those who want to fight or express entitlement. Use your own brain to determine fair.

Cheers

Welcome Transat pilots
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Sat May 18, 2019 10:09 am

Fanblade wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:56 am
It is estimated 8-14 months to get through all the regulator huddles. The competition bureau may require divestiture of part of Transat like what happened in the AC/CDN merger. CDN regional was put up for sale. In the end there were no takers and folded in to Jazz.

So while all this is going on, of course the two companies will create synergies while not merged. The ACPA contract does not allow for Transat to run separate. I listened to an AC manager two days ago. The plan is to merge Transat into mainline. Rouge may as well.

How about everyone step back from the keyboard. Opinions are like azzwholes. Everyone’s got one. If we don’t come up with a fair integration on our own? The ONLY opinion that will matter is an arbitrators.

From experience. Everyone is better off with a negotiated list. Don’t follow those who want to fight or express entitlement. Use your own brain to determine fair.

Cheers

Welcome Transat pilots
A negotiated contract is always better than an arbitrated one.

Ask the Westjet pilots how they feel about their imposed contract.

It's always better to have control. The best contract is when every party walks away a little unhappy. If one group feels they "won", you've likely been had.
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am

I have a feeling it's Transat people posting this kumbaya stuff. Let it go to the arbitrator. At least there is no way they would allow DOH.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 10:50 am

Victory wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am
I have a feeling it's Transat people posting this kumbaya stuff. Let it go to the arbitrator. At least there is no way they would allow DOH.
I'm AC. Based on the users posting most of the Kumbaya stuff is coming from the AC side.

Why?

Experience
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indieadventurer
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by indieadventurer » Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am

Victory wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am
I have a feeling it's Transat people posting this kumbaya stuff. Let it go to the arbitrator. At least there is no way they would allow DOH.
I have no horse in this race but sending AT pilots to the BOTL doesn't seem objectively right, just like a 6 year AT 330 captain maintaining their position, once the dust settles.

Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am

indieadventurer wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am
Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
People like this are going to be the major losers in the deal. Some people are going to go from WB Captain to NB FO.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am

Victory wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
indieadventurer wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am
Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
People like this are going to be the major losers in the deal. Some people are going to go from WB Captain to NB FO.
I doubt it. I think there will be some kind of status protection (prob 320CA) for the initial transition by which time they would hold 320 CA whatever the outcome.

I don't think anyone at AC wants to see a toxic fight here, but a fair agreement/settlement and to get to work improving our contract with our employer. But there is no doubt if AT comes in with high seniority demands it will get toxic quick.

I'm hearing that AT already had a committee preparing for seniority merger before the deal was ever announced. I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level? At a 40-50% pay increase, and everything else you'll get joining? Get real.

Every AT pilot will win in this deal however it lands. Even a narrow body seat ie. 320 in present status with YOS pay. Higher pay than present position, better/employer paid benefits, better work rules, a pension, profit share, and upward mobility to those eventual 40-50% raises... Sounds pretty fracking good.

There is zero benefit in this deal for AC pilots. However it goes we lose something... but try to take it all with a moonshot and there's going to be a long fight.
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RRJetPilot
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by RRJetPilot » Sat May 18, 2019 12:12 pm

My prediction is they are merged at a 2for1 or 3for1 year ratio. So that 6 year 330 captain at AT will be slotted in at 3 years AC seniority. Then they will run a massive bid and you can bid on anything you can hold. Many more 330 positions so lots of AC guys will be able to go wide body. Most TS guys will be going 320 or 737 CA, some back to FO. Now the question is will they be pay protected to their last position at AT?
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 pm

There is never bump and flush. The company would never agree. Too expensive.

I get people like to speculate. But at the bare minimum make sure it's based on realism.

At this point we have no idea how the competition bureau will view this. Will WJ apply as an intervener and push for partial divestiture.

It's likely. The result who knows.

Chill
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 12:50 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am

I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level?
I hope that is just BS rumour stuff. But yes that would certainly start a war. Force AC pilots to go in the extreme opposite direction.

It would be exactly what we don't want to happen
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Sat May 18, 2019 2:08 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 12:50 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am

I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level?
I hope that is just BS rumour stuff. But yes that would certainly start a war. Force AC pilots to go in the extreme opposite direction.

It would be exactly what we don't want to happen
If this happens there will be riots in the airport.
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termerair
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by termerair » Sat May 18, 2019 3:06 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am
I'm hearing that AT already had a committee preparing for seniority merger before the deal was ever announced. I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level? At a 40-50% pay increase, and everything else you'll get joining? Get real.
And this is how to start a freak out show... None of us will benefit from this kind of false rumors. Please remain reasonable and state your facts if you have them. There is no way this kind of details are being discussed at this stage. Don't see ourselves as a key factor in this transaction, we are only employees...
Every AT pilot will win in this deal however it lands. Even a narrow body seat ie. 320 in present status with YOS pay. Higher pay than present position, better/employer paid benefits, better work rules, a pension, profit share, and upward mobility to those eventual 40-50% raises... Sounds pretty fracking good.

You are right in some aspects. However, and even if nothing has been discussed nor decided, don't you think it is going to be heartbreaking for some guys to loose their A330 seat when they had made clear career choices? Money is not everything. The TS pilots have it pretty good as well and may have to surrender some of their candy conditions. This is not a black and white situation.
There is zero benefit in this deal for AC pilots. However it goes we lose something... but try to take it all with a moonshot and there's going to be a long fight.
I don't agree. A large number of AC pilots will benefit from the addition of the 30 or so airbus (a330 but especially the 15 new A321neo). All those tails will be able to, at least, cross the atlantique. In my eyes it will widen the horizon for many, especially for those who are/will be on the A320 fleet.

I am offering you my point of view just to show a different perspective. We all have something to gain if we remain respectful, reasonable and open minded... imho
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 3:54 pm

I like your post.

Cheers
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Sat May 18, 2019 4:57 pm

termerair wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:06 pm
There is zero benefit in this deal for AC pilots. However it goes we lose something... but try to take it all with a moonshot and there's going to be a long fight.
I don't agree. A large number of AC pilots will benefit from the addition of the 30 or so airbus (a330 but especially the 15 new A321neo). All those tails will be able to, at least, cross the atlantique. In my eyes it will widen the horizon for many, especially for those who are/will be on the A320 fleet.

I am offering you my point of view just to show a different perspective. We all have something to gain if we remain respectful, reasonable and open minded... imho
I'd also like to add that a lot of TS pilots are cross trained, seeing as AC pilots don't do that, that mean extra positions (in addition to the dozen or so pilots TS planned to hire each month) for the AC group to cover in addition to the added tails.

TS pilots win by a better contract and long term job security, AC pilots win with added planes, positions, and ability to renegotiate their contract. There is a way for this merge (if it happens) to be amicable, and I hope it happens. Many thanks to those AC pilots who are welcoming.
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DanWEC
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC » Sat May 18, 2019 5:30 pm

For people at AC worried that this will cause a large drop in seniority, it would hardly be noticable. 600 pilots spread from yesterday to 30 years, and many being hired every month. There will be a good chunk below a new AC hire today as well as hiring continues at a large rate at TS.

Also, they're coming with a fleet of great airplanes. 321neo LR's and 330's. Nobody is getting bumped. Hopefully it's all very civilized and positive! I personally think it's terrific.
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ahramin
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ahramin » Sat May 18, 2019 6:33 pm

Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Sat May 18, 2019 6:37 pm

ahramin wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:33 pm
Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
No.

Most AC pilots are extremely selfish and it's the reason pay and working conditions lag so far behind the rest if north america
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