DOH merge.

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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Attitude?

It's not personal. It's just the way it is.

The aquisition isn't even confirmed yet. I'm sure Transat shareholders hope Onex swoops in with a big bid too...

This is a huge hassle and distraction from other things we should be dealing with. If it does go through it will negatively impact the career of most of my colleagues. There is no benefit to AC Pilots at all.
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atphat
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by atphat »

Lol. I was talking about the Transat fellow.

I agree with what you’re saying
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Okay.

I'll reiterate also -

That I'm against the acquisition is not personal to any Trsnsat pilots. If it does go through, I'll move forward with what we've been dealt, we'd be colleagues, and would have to move forward together for a fair deal, and a better contract.
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:56 am This is a huge hassle and distraction from other things we should be dealing with. If it does go through it will negatively impact the career of most of my colleagues. There is no benefit to AC Pilots at all.
Remember you’re just a number in a big corporation. Our CEOs do not care what is fair or not for you or us. And I am pretty sure your beloved employer will remind you that you are not essential, can be replaced and free to leave if you’re not happy with the corporate’s decision. But he already knows that you’ll never leave.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

LOL... No shit! I work at AC, that goes with the territory. In fact our CEO reminded us of that personally on one of his recent "Roadshows".

Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and vocalise and write it. Free speech, man, get with the program.

Besides, "if you don't like it leave" is a bullshit argument. We can affect change, following the contract, not taking overtime, not extending duty days, voting as a Union member, voting as a shareholder, etc... all that sends a message, the more that do it, the louder it gets.
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rudder
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by rudder »

Neither the TS nor the AC pilots have any say in the execution of the corporate transaction UNLESS either collective agreement contain actionable provisions (consent/consequence/etc).

Good time to consult the union lawyers....
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Just another canuck
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 4:44 am
Takeoff OK wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 11:12 pm Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?
Yes, I hope that happens.

How about you? Where would you rather go?
Would you rather it go to AC or TUI/some rich Chinese company with deeper pockets than AC/Onex combined? Because I'm sure they're knocking at the door too. That would be very bad for AC. How do you think it would affect your career progression then?

FYI, no TS pilots want this either with the exception of a few at the bottom I would think. I chose Transat for the better QOL and time off. You all speak so highly of AC salaries yet if you divide a Transat pilots salary by number of days worked, we're way ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess I have to say goodbye to my 6 day pairings. And the 48, 72 and sometimes 96 hour layovers. And the CCQ/MFF program which greatly benefits many of us and provides two great flying seasons. I know I will pick things up on the other end I never had but I chose TS for these reasons.

We didn't ask for this either. I hope it goes smoothly. I'll happily take the position afforded to me after a bid and fair deal, so long as it's not BOTL. And I will very much show up to work a happy man and willing to greet and work with my new colleagues as I have with enthusiasm at Transat in the past.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 11:04 am
altiplano wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 4:44 am
Takeoff OK wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 11:12 pm Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?
Yes, I hope that happens.

How about you? Where would you rather go?
Would you rather it go to AC or TUI/some rich Chinese company with deeper pockets than AC/Onex combined? Because I'm sure they're knocking at the door too. That would be very bad for AC. How do you think it would affect your career progression then?

FYI, no TS pilots want this either with the exception of a few at the bottom I would think. I chose Transat for the better QOL and time off. You all speak so highly of AC salaries yet if you divide a Transat pilots salary by number of days worked, we're way ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess I have to say goodbye to my 6 day pairings. And the 48, 72 and sometimes 96 hour layovers. And the CCQ/MFF program which greatly benefits many of us and provides two great flying seasons. I know I will pick things up on the other end I never had but I chose TS for these reasons.

We didn't ask for this either. I hope it goes smoothly. I'll happily take the position afforded to me after a bid and fair deal, so long as it's not BOTL. And I will very much show up to work a happy man and willing to greet and work with my new colleagues as I have with enthusiasm at Transat in the past.
I really wouldn't care who else were to buy Transat.

I guess you're saying that you'd rather work for a Chinese airline investor thwack Onex... I don't know, if you think that's a good plan then that is fine with me.

Nor do I really care what you have or think you may lose at Transat, that's nothing for me.

I just rather we weren't buying you... it just is what it is and it's a negative affect on me and most of my colleagues here now. If you can't accept that, I'm sorry.

Don't get offended, as I said, nothing personal, if this comes to pass, and we ever flew together, I'm sure that we'd have a great pairing and fun layover. I don't have any animosity toward you and will move ahead if/after it all settles.
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Just another canuck
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck »

Not offended. I just think you're missing the big picture.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso »

I feel for the Transat Pilots, dealing with ACPA. You have nothing to worry about, it most definitely will not be BOTL (against the delusional thoughts of some.) However it also will not be DOH, my advice is keep your expectations in check. AC does not have a DOH list for you to merge into.

AC is a great Airline to work for, but like you I had no plans to ever work for them. Nor did I ever apply. There are certain pockets of arrogance that is nothing but laughable, most from the right seat of a Dash 8 hired in the mid to late 90's. That hiring boom saw anyone with a pulse (and a Pilots Licence) get hired.

The good news is there are some fantastic people here and a great Management team.

Guaranteed the two groups will never agree and the list will be decided by an Arbitrator. Enjoy the summer, this will take awhile.
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Stan Darsh
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stan Darsh »

There's always a certain percentage of jerkoffs at every company, AT included. The pilot group at AC is fractured. The top 40% have been through a lot, including an extremely contentious merger and are very wary of a seniority merge. The bottom 60% skew fairly junior due to the massive growth, and stand to lose the most if DOH were to take place. If this is the position that ALPA takes, there really is no other approach for ACPA other than BOTL with the understanding that the final arrangement will be somewhere in between. It's not personal, it's protecting the interests of AC pilots, who really have nothing to gain materially from this whole thing, other than the prospect of negotiating a new contract and addressing irritants ahead of schedule. I think you will find that the majority of AC pilots are apprehensive but ready to work with and welcome our AT colleagues, with one eye on the next contract.

1.5 YOS
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by WhatThe? »

Merger based on Current Pay.
Would not be too hard to slot pilots into pay groups that match their current pay at AT. Air Canada pays bettter so a 330 Captain may slot into a 320 Captain job at AC.
It would suck for any pilots with less than 4 years when they get a pay cut for the remainder of the 4-year new hire pay though...
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Stan Darsh wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 8:33 am There's always a certain percentage of jerkoffs at every company, AT included. The pilot group at AC is fractured. The top 40% have been through a lot, including an extremely contentious merger and are very wary of a seniority merge. The bottom 60% skew fairly junior due to the massive growth, and stand to lose the most if DOH were to take place. If this is the position that ALPA takes, there really is no other approach for ACPA other than BOTL with the understanding that the final arrangement will be somewhere in between.
ACPA does not have a DOH list. You can’t merge DOH when one doesn’t exist.

The first thing the arbitrator decided in the AC/CDN merger was the type of integration.
DOH VS Ratio. Questions like which one provides likes with likes and no windfall gains or losses. Does a DOH list exist in a reasonable form.

The AC/CDN merge became a ratio by category merge. AC WB CA/CDN WB CA integrated evenly by ratio. Then NB CA and so forth down the list. Last time there was a wrinkle. AC had a category that didn’t exist at CDN. RP’s. So the last category, NB FO, became a catch all for everyone left. This, plus a re ratio is what created an 8:1. AC/CDN ratio on the bottom of the list. Today those pilots are in the top 40%. You’re right they are very leery of another fiasco like the last.

Today we have the same issue, but even more so. Today AC pilots don’t just have 1 extra category that Transat doesn’t have. We have 5 extra categories. Rouge WB CA/ WB FO and Rouge NB CA/ NB FO plus RP’s.

Where Transat fits into those extra categories who knows. Does a Transat 330 CA merge with AC WB CA or Rouge WB CA. Are we going to see yet again a catch all bottom category of predominantly AC pilots because of the RP category? In fact the arbitrator may well decide that like DOH, a category/ratio merge is just not clean enough. I think it is clear that a merge by category poses risk to both sides.

The arbitrator may choose to move on to another form of ratio. A straight ratio. Or multiple variable ratios with anchor points they choose on the list. If the arbitrator goes this route I would expect to see a fairly evenly distributed Transat integration across the AC list with possible anchor points and variable ratios if windfall gains and losses appear. Maybe some time limited fences on top.

We can do this ourselves. Or have it forced. Our collective choice.

We leave this to an arbitrator and we will simply end up with their version of fair against a backdrop of precedence. There is a good chance injustice will take place at some point on the list and the arbitrator won’t really care.

If we as a group choose not to be reasonable, but rather take up adversarial positions? Make no mistake, that is a choice. A choice that may come with consequences we don’t like. It will be no one else’s fault than our own.

Like Stu above, my expectations are that someone will probably take an unreasonable position that drives the situation into an adversarial relationship and arbitration.

One can only hope this does not happen, however likely it may be.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Goldencondor »

We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Goldencondor wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:25 pm We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.
I'm sure grandfathered rates until the AC rate is higher will be part of the package that gets negotiated. Possibly for everyone on property senior to the most junior grandfathered pilot even.

But I'm highly suspect that AC will want it's pound of flesh to outright get rid of the 4 year flat though. We'll have to see how high a price (concession) they ask...
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Jean-Pierre »

The ACPA should just buy Air Transat. It would only be like $150k per person.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stan Darsh »

altiplano wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:47 pm
Goldencondor wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:25 pm We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.
I'm sure grandfathered rates until the AC rate is higher will be part of the package that gets negotiated. Possibly for everyone on property senior to the most junior grandfathered pilot even.

But I'm highly suspect that AC will want it's pound of flesh to outright get rid of the 4 year flat though. We'll have to see how high a price (concession) they ask...
I don't see why we would give another inch on anything at this point. If the contract is up for a premature negotiation it is the end result of an extremely advantageous position the company has found itself in, and the pilot group has a part in facilitating that. This merger is a good play for AC but a negative for the existing AC pilots. IF this deal is finalized and a merger is imminent, we HAVE to capitalize on the opportunity to negotiate early.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

I agree on what you're saying, I'm not suggesting we give anything... more like - look how much they would ask for that.... I think a lot.

We have to think about our moves very carefully though. WRT negotiation early. Before this deal dropped? Absolutely, open it up.

But now? We need to see what the company is doing first, how their plans, esp. fleet plans are unfolding.

One thing to keep in mind is LCC expansion and Article 1 are not permitted to be arbitrated under the 10 year framework MOA. They are locked down and untouchable unless we give.

Open the contract up just as the corporation needs to expand the LCC with a bunch of 330s? We have seen where things go when CR isn't getting what he's wanting... remember, he's 10 moves ahead of us... maybe 50... careful about taking any bait...

Suddenly our extra 1% for 5 years is being paid for by moving another 600 jobs to B-scale...

Again, I'm not saying don't open it up, but we need to be careful... suddenly it will be AC pilots painted as the politician's bad guy, particularly in Quebec, because we don't want to keep 600 B-scale jobs there... and an arbitrator would kill us.

And before someone jumps on me, I'm not saying axe Transat pilots in that statement, I'm saying keep a lid on B-scale at AC... If we get more WBs, let them be A.scale... that is if you can call any pay scales in this country "A"...
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike »

I've heard the idea floated to let all the AT pilots keep their seats, and pay plus progression as per their current contract but place them for seniority at the bottom. Then pay protect until which time they meet and exceed their pay protected status on the AC rate.

It's not ideal, but it keeps their pilots making the money they make and flying the plane they fly, and won't effect any pilot currently on property.

600 pilots joining in above the bottom is a lot of widebody Captains in the future.

A lot of people made their decision to come to air Canada based on future retirements, fleet plan etc. This essentially wipes out %25 of the projected retirements for the next 20 years. That's no small number and for anyone who's joined in the last year or two, that's career lasting effects.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Puffpuffpass »

Above post is spot on, how would a Transat pilot be able to complain about being allowed to hold his same seat out of Senority, with a pay raise? Obviously they should have to join the bottom of the list at AC...they started working here after everyone else!!

I also don’t agree with these fences protecting certain groups. What kind of fence is going to protect the 3 yr guy here? I could care less about myself, no matter what happens here I won’t be affected.

It will no doubt go to arbitration, unless ACPA and AC have a little something up their sleeves, which I’m starting to think they might. Our Rouge President left out of the blue this week past.
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