DOH merge.

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Sharklasers
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Sharklasers » Mon May 27, 2019 4:42 am

TSAM wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 am

Overall if all goes ideally, no one will ever notice a reduction in seniority % or upgrade times if affected. Most, if not all should benefit especially in a new contract. I'm sure when the MECs sit down and crunch the numbers to reflect this most can breathe easy. I'm very certain no one at AC will lose their position. Same can't be said for TS pilots.

A seniority % based merger would have Air Transat pilots hired in 2006 slotting in ahead of Air a Canada pilots hired in 1997/1998 around the 25% mark. That split remains but gets slightly less dramatic throughout the list. Eg.) a 4 year difference in favour of TS at the 50% mark. This is because for a lot of people TS isn't a career company and enough of the pilots quit or came to AC, keeping TS substantially more junior. If you get your % based merger I won't have to worry about the damage done to my career at AC because I am going to supplement my income by selling pitch forks and torches.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by RVR6000 » Mon May 27, 2019 6:46 am

fish4life wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:26 pm
Because he will go from an awesome schedule to a shitty one, again it may be hard to see because it’s not the same goals in life but some people are ok making less money for a good schedule.
And a massive uplift in pay. You can keep the awesome schedule and be restricted to just flying Rouge.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by HavaJava » Mon May 27, 2019 7:37 am

RVR6000 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:46 am
[quote=fish4life post_id=<a href="tel:1079653">1079653</a> time=<a href="tel:1558931176">1558931176</a> user_id=31965]
Because he will go from an awesome schedule to a shitty one, again it may be hard to see because it’s not the same goals in life but some people are ok making less money for a good schedule.
And a massive uplift in pay. You can keep the awesome schedule and be restricted to just flying Rouge.
[/quote]

This...what a lot of people outside of AC don’t realize is just how many ways you can balance lifestyle and pay in this company. If you have 4 years in the company (maybe even less) you can already choose

1. Captain’s pay (close to $200,000 with 4 YOS on the NB) and the prestige (if you’re into that.)
2. 9 days a month work (RP).
3. Great long layover and socialized bidding (again, if you’re into that) at Rouge.
4. I’m trying to think of something me redeeming qualities of Mainline NB FO...but I’m struggling :lol: might be because I spent 8 years there.

And the options only get better as time goes on. There are so many options that to say that someone will go from an “awesome schedule to a shitty schedule” is completely untrue.
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TheStig
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TheStig » Mon May 27, 2019 7:39 am

fish4life wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:26 pm
Because he will go from an awesome schedule to a shitty one, again it may be hard to see because it’s not the same goals in life but some people are ok making less money for a good schedule.
I think this is a good discussion to have between two groups that are potentially merging within the next few years. I think we're all starting to get a better idea of the complexities involved.

I understand many senior Transat pilots enjoy their lifestyle. However, so do many senior Air Canada pilots, that's exactly why they choose to stay in senior positions as opposed to bidding into higher paying positions and why seniority is such a BIG issue. Some Transat Captains will bid into higher paying positions, just as AC pilots do, while some will choose lifestyle.

I'm not an advocate of placing fences around positions or keeping separate seniority lists, but somebody is going to feel cheated regardless or whether the new entity shrinks or grows.

For example, the 787 Captain position in YUL. Just 35 positions where the seniority range from top to bottom of the list is 950 seniority numbers. It's a big raise to a Transat Captain and involves flying 3 trips to PVG or NRT. Who deserves to be awarded the next vacancy a pilot hired at Air Canda in 1996 or someone from Transat who was hired in '92 or '99 or '02?

There are currently about 650 postitions at AC that pay a higher wage than the top Transat Captain rate. The most junior pilot awarded one of those seats is about sen #1200 or roughly 23 years, every one of those pilots could hold rouge 767 and earn the same wage as a Transat 330 CA, but they've bid for the higher paying job.

Once again, I hope that both groups can work together to find an agreed upon solution without resorting to arbitration so the united group can shift its focus on negotiating a solid collective agreement.
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fish4life
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fish4life » Mon May 27, 2019 8:36 am

What if you take the median seniority position at each company using as close to a DOH as you can at AC and then start using a ratio from there in each direction?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon May 27, 2019 9:23 am

fish4life wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:36 am
What if you take the median seniority position at each company using as close to a DOH as you can at AC and then start using a ratio from there in each direction?
The real issue here is not so much how the top integrates even though that is where the focus usually lands. It’s the bottom that is the flash point. Dealing with the bottom will be paramount to getting a resolution outside of arbitration and getting a deal that is fair.

We might as well call it like it is. No matter how we integrate the list, DOH, ratio or throwing darts at a picture of our respective CEO’s, the last guys/gals are still the last guys/gals. To the bottom, the how we integrate is meaningless because the end result for them is the same. It means about 500 Transat pilots sliding in above the bottom 500 AC pilots.

From the junior AC and Transat pilot perception, they are getting end tailed. And let’s be honest. They are. The bottom is the bottom

A too bad so sad response will only elicit fury. Fury that may force ACPA’s hand. Trust me on this. Sometimes it’s just easier on the leadership, to not lead, and just let someone else figure it out. That, in of itself, is probably one of the biggest threats to achieving a resolution without arbitration.

So if we really want a negotiated combined list? Stop looking at the top. Figure out the bottom. And that will be a daunting task.

Added: someone pm’d me with this idea. A set of reinstatement rights for junior AC and Transat pilots that would allow them to bid things, out of seniority, but in keeping with their pre merger relative expectations over a limited period of time?

Another.

Since Transat pilots represent about 15% of the list. Limit Transat pilots to a maximum of 15% of specific positions?

Another.

Limit Transat pilots to the number of positions they bring for a specified amount of time? They bring 100 320 CA positions, they get limited to that for x years? But what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. Limit AC pilots from bidding 330 positions for x years.

Comments?
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso » Mon May 27, 2019 10:31 am

Protecting the bottom of the list is tough, although I understand the concern. During the last mess, some of the most vocal were the hyper junior Pilots.

So the question is, if you are measuring your Airline seniority in "months" rather than "years," who exactly do you think should be junior to you?

On a side note, the most recent Pilot merger in Canada was Jazz and Georgian which was DOH. It is a complete mystery why ALPA Jazz just gave that up, talk about hurting the Junior Jazz Pilots. Is ALPA Jazz trying to set precedent, I am not a conspiracy theorist but it makes one wonder.

There is no hope of a negotiated list, as mentioned above. This will go to Arbitration, just like every other major integration did.
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laserstrike
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:31 am
Protecting the bottom of the list is tough, although I understand the concern. During the last mess, some of the most vocal were the hyper junior Pilots.

So the question is, if you are measuring your Airline seniority in "months" rather than "years," who exactly do you think should be junior to you?

On a side note, the most recent Pilot merger in Canada was Jazz and Georgian which was DOH. It is a complete mystery why ALPA Jazz just gave that up, talk about hurting the Junior Jazz Pilots. Is ALPA Jazz trying to set precedent, I am not a conspiracy theorist but it makes one wonder.

There is no hope of a negotiated list, as mentioned above. This will go to Arbitration, just like every other major integration did.
The GGN and Jazz merge isn't even close to the same thing. The contract as a whole, was to include 350+ pilots leaving to mainline before the end of the year and effectively seniority wasn't effected. GGN has something like 200 pilots.

Without the GGN pilots there wouldn't have been the 60/90% flow deal. What the AT pilots coming over brings is just more bodies integrating with zero offset of people leaving to go to the "next step." It's working so far the last few AC classes have been majority Jazz.

Literally no Jr Jazz pilot was hurt. Everyone moved up the list significantly, lots of Jr Captains gone and going to mainline, lots of new upgrades... Hundreds.

There was also the argument that both were doing exactly the same flying for the same company and both ALPA carriers.

It's not comparable.
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Jean-Luc Monette » Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:42 am
TSAM wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 am

Overall if all goes ideally, no one will ever notice a reduction in seniority % or upgrade times if affected. Most, if not all should benefit especially in a new contract. I'm sure when the MECs sit down and crunch the numbers to reflect this most can breathe easy. I'm very certain no one at AC will lose their position. Same can't be said for TS pilots.

This is because for a lot of people TS isn't a career company and enough of the pilots quit or came to AC, keeping TS substantially more junior.

I don’t know where or who you got that info from but it’s completely false.
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Sharklasers
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Sharklasers » Mon May 27, 2019 4:33 pm

Jean-Luc Monette wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm

I don’t know where or who you got that info from but it’s completely false.
They are headed somewhere, how else could you explain the fact that your 25% pilot was hired in 2006 vs AC at 1997. Further to that AC has hired over 100 Transat pilots (about 1/6 of your current list) how many have gone the other way?
I never said the majority leave Transat but enough do to make a percentage merger grossly one sided in favour of the TS pilots.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon May 27, 2019 5:41 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:33 pm
Jean-Luc Monette wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm

I don’t know where or who you got that info from but it’s completely false.
They are headed somewhere, how else could you explain the fact that your 25% pilot was hired in 2006 vs AC at 1997. Further to that AC has hired over 100 Transat pilots (about 1/6 of your current list) how many have gone the other way?
I never said the majority leave Transat but enough do to make a percentage merger grossly one sided in favour of the TS pilots.
Same on the other end of the list...

75% @ AC about 5-6 years ago.
75% @ TS about 3 years ago.

I've flown with about 6 or 7 that came from Transat in the past year.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Mon May 27, 2019 6:44 pm

So no DOH and no percentage based merger? An arbitrator will be looking at one or both of these options as a starting point. We're not going BOTL. So what exactly do you think is going to happen? Sounds like it's certainly in everyone's best interest to secure a deal before it goes to arbitration. Although the TS group could get a raw deal, it appears AC would be more at risk. DOH then? I know our whole group would be okay with that. Or risk arbitration and have a possible percentage based merger and you all hate showing up to work with us or the next 3 decades.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Mon May 27, 2019 6:45 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:44 pm
So no DOH and no percentage based merger? An arbitrator will be looking at one or both of these options as a starting point. We're not going BOTL. So what exactly do you think is going to happen? Sounds like it's certainly in everyone's best interest to secure a deal before it goes to arbitration. Although the TS group could get a raw deal, it appears AC would be more at risk. DOH then? I know our whole group would be okay with that. Or risk arbitration and have a possible percentage based merger and you all hate showing up to work with us or the next 3 decades.
You can always apply at Enerjet.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Mon May 27, 2019 7:08 pm

laserstrike wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:45 pm
Just another canuck wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:44 pm
So no DOH and no percentage based merger? An arbitrator will be looking at one or both of these options as a starting point. We're not going BOTL. So what exactly do you think is going to happen? Sounds like it's certainly in everyone's best interest to secure a deal before it goes to arbitration. Although the TS group could get a raw deal, it appears AC would be more at risk. DOH then? I know our whole group would be okay with that. Or risk arbitration and have a possible percentage based merger and you all hate showing up to work with us or the next 3 decades.
You can always apply at Enerjet.
You'll be part of the group who forces this thing to an undesirable state, screws yourself, then blames everyone else but yourself for the outcome.

And why would I apply at Enerjet. I work for AT. My job isn't going anywhere.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 pm

I think all the bravado on both sides is bullshit...

I don't think an arbitrator would conclude straight DOH or ratio as it's an unreasonable windfall for one group. They won't put everyone BOTL either of course.

Our leadership know that and I think will find a fair conclusion to this when/if it happens (still hoping it doesn't), and it will probablybe with the help of the arbitrator as a mediator before we get to arbitration.

I'm thinking I'll be surprised if this goes to full arbitration. Bottom of the list guys at AC are fucked either way. Whatever comes, they are still bottom of the list with 600+ more above them though...

I'm not bottom of the list, but movement since 2012 fly to 65 has been pretty slow, I imagine I'll lose about my last 4-6 years worth of numbers in the deal... didn't mean I have to like it.

I'm managing my expectations, I think that's a majority consensus at AC - guys don't like it - but are managing expectations on this come up with something fair but not outrageously slanted...

I'd suggest to Transat guys to ignore the BOTL ideas, that's clearly not happening, but also manage your own expectations.

Your seniority list isn't pure DOH, I see lots of guys not in order by DOH on your list... neither is ours, so you can't merge on that. We have senior guys here who have been at AC years before Transat even existed, you can't merge on pure ratio. So manage your own expectations of "fair".

I know some of you said I never wanted to go to AC, lifestyle, widebody, whatever, but we have lots and lots of guys, more guys than your whole list with great lifestyles too, high credit turns, or high credit overseas for 8-10 days/month, and making more money for equivalent and better seats, we just have more, period... so an arbitrator isn't going to care about perceptions of lifestyle, they're going to come up with a starting point based on contract value and pay rates, they're going to come up with a position value formula, a seniority value ratio, etc. and base decisions on that.

The Transat guys are all going to get protections for some years moving forward, and everyone will get a raise, many will take big raises, and we'll all move on...

Sure, a few Transat guys will work more but for more money and a better contract, but all AC guys will get nothing, most will take hits in advancement opportunity, schedule bidding, money, some will take an even bigger hit, maybe be reduced or get the left seat taken...

I think lots of Transat guys will still think it's unfair though, ie. not DOH or pure ratio, but somewhat adjusted, so I hope you guys manage your expectations somewhat too... and remember, lots of choice here... if you don't like where you end up when it all settles, bid to a higher paying spot, or bid to a position where you'll be more senior and doing what you want... heck, go on vacation and bid RP and pass on RSV even if you don't want to work... you'll get a chance about 6x a year.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Sharklasers » Mon May 27, 2019 7:38 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:44 pm
So no DOH and no percentage based merger? An arbitrator will be looking at one or both of these options as a starting point. We're not going BOTL. So what exactly do you think is going to happen? Sounds like it's certainly in everyone's best interest to secure a deal before it goes to arbitration. Although the TS group could get a raw deal, it appears AC would be more at risk. DOH then? I know our whole group would be okay with that. Or risk arbitration and have a possible percentage based merger and you all hate showing up to work with us or the next 3 decades.
Yep. Even as a junior pilot I would take DOH certainity.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Mon May 27, 2019 8:08 pm

Nice post Altiplano which I mostly agree, except the AC perception IMO.
but all AC guys will get nothing, most will take hits in advancement opportunity, schedule bidding, money, some will take an even bigger hit, maybe be reduced or get the left seat taken...

I've said repeatedly we would be bringing over planes and positions, but it seems every AC pilot thinks it'll be just pilots and no planes. Why do you and every AC pilot think that they'll get bumped, pay cut (those two items would/should be protected) or take 5 more years to upgrade? Where are the numbers to back up these claims?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon May 27, 2019 8:52 pm

First of all you don't own any of your airplanes.

Secondly- some of those 330s are old.

Thirdly - the 330-200s are most of your 330s and AC has never wanted 200s - even on the used/leased market in their recent shopping trips. 200s don't fit... They will be short lived if they come at all...

Fourthly - the 321s, sure, but again AC have recently been on their own 321 shopping trips... incl. New CEOs, WOW CEOs, and more.... we would have gotten them anyway and without you attached, or at least the 45 options they hold on MAXs after that washes out or the 30 options on the CS300s - and so far you've only gotten 1 of the NEOs... and a couple CEOs kicking around...

Fifthly - the 310s and 737s are gone obviously immediately, earlier than Transat's current timeline... So what are you going to fly? AC metal.

Sixthly - as history has indicated (Canadi>n), AC mostly disposed of the fleet... used some of the 767s, a few of the old 737s as Zip for a while until somehow we had to take 320 pay concessions to roll the 737 flying back into mainline... So I just don't think your fleet will outlast you here... a few 321s... that's it... and 600+ pilots.

Seventhly - you don't augment any of your flying, yet you bring a slightly higher ratio of pilots:plane than we have, even if every fin comes and flies...

Again nothing personal, you asked, and that's just how I see it unfolding. Similar growth happens either way if it can be sustained...
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon May 27, 2019 8:52 pm

double post
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Mon May 27, 2019 9:03 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:52 pm
First of all you don't own any of your airplanes.

Secondly- some of those 330s are old.

Thirdly - the 330-200s are most of your 330s and AC has never wanted 200s - even on the used/leased market in their recent shopping trips. 200s don't fit... They will be short lived if they come at all...

Fourthly - the 321s, sure, but again AC have recently been on their own 321 shopping trips... incl. New CEOs, WOW CEOs, and more.... we would have gotten them anyway and without you attached, or at least the 45 options they hold on MAXs after that washes out or the 30 options on the CS300s - and so far you've only gotten 1 of the NEOs... and a couple CEOs kicking around...

Fifthly - the 310s and 737s are gone obviously immediately, earlier than Transat's current timeline... So what are you going to fly? AC metal.

Sixthly - as history has indicated (Canadi>n), AC mostly disposed of the fleet... used some of the 767s, a few of the old 737s as Zip for a while until somehow we had to take 320 pay concessions to roll the 737 flying back into mainline... So I just don't think your fleet will outlast you here... a few 321s... that's it... and 600+ pilots.

Seventhly - you don't augment any of your flying, yet you bring a slightly higher ratio of pilots:plane than we have, even if every fin comes and flies...

Again nothing personal, you asked, and that's just how I see it unfolding. Similar growth happens either way if it can be sustained...
I don't know who you are but I hope you are involved in ACPA leadership or have a listening ear in their group. You make a lot of very good and valid points and if this is going to happen I want ACPA to use all the points you've made as negotiation tactics to get some significant gains all around.

We own our seniority list. If the company wants us to open it up to another group, of another union.. they need to give something in return.

At the new hire dinner I remember hearing a lot about how were all one group and the union is there to work for everyone, protect the seniority etc. So if we're going to have to take AT pilots in I want to see the union make some improvements for everyone, especially the bottom thousand on the list to take a bit of pain away. Mostly the flat pay and pay raises for everyone else including FOs through to year 10+.

One of the things that's currently really broken with the system is people who need to "risk" a Jr upgrade just so they can get off status pay and make a living. No one should feel pressured to take a left seat because they can't live comfortably on FO pay.

Probation is one year. Go look at pay tables for a US carriers. It's artificially low for one year and then year 2 pilots are making more than mid upper pack FOs at AC. It's a joke.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Mon May 27, 2019 9:19 pm

fish4life wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:26 pm
Because he will go from an awesome schedule to a shitty one, again it may be hard to see because it’s not the same goals in life but some people are ok making less money for a good schedule.
No problem you can have that at AC. Go bid FO on the 320 or RP. 1.5 year YYZ FOs on the 320 are sitting 30-40 out of a projected list of 200 and currently over 100 pilots.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fruitloops » Mon May 27, 2019 9:44 pm

Some good ideas for merging being posted, that's refreshing to see. Need some quants to create some merging models with multiple variables and weightings, make some assumptions and run them. Then take each of variables/weightings to their extremes and find the optimal outcomes for each of the groups Then see where their lines/points intersect or near each other and have least number of pilots negatively affected..but easier said than done lol Could even create the model based on the input of each pilot and their preferences in the form of a questionnaire or importance ranking so everyone has a say. Then take the overall ratings from all pilots and then build the model from it.

% seniority helps take into consideration the distribution of pilots as there has been a few hiring bubbles that have created uneven distributions of pilots where as DOH alone wouldn't do that as well, but a combination could optimal :

Combining YOS & % Seniority Gotta be some formula that would smooth the bumps out.
For example: this is an issue someone posted > AT 25% pilot was hired in 2006 vs AC at 1997' where % doesn't work but throw in yos
for the AT pilot - You could take (1 minus 25%) seniority times YOS 13.21 years to create a factor of 9.9075
for the AC pilot (1-25%) of YOS 22.13 years = factor of 16.5975
Junior pilot .........(1-80%) of 2.53 years = 0.50600
etc.......Once u get formula tweaked u could use the resulting factors to rank the list of pilots or add yet another variable like position,pay or type to further modify the factor.

Yes, unfortunately someone in both groups will have to give and take a little in order to meet in the grey middle area somewhere. Hopefully the flat pay can be revisited and changed for the benefit of the newer hires

I personally think the number of tails won't be reduced overall and that will help keep things even for both groups for the most part if they put up some fences between each others equipment for a few years. I think AC will take advantage of the orders AT has in the pipe so that they can jump the queue after bailing on more 737max's . New order queues for Airbus and BA are like 5 to 7 years. Anyone know how AT pilot manning levels per tail compare to AC , or will that be even steven with new regs coming?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Mon May 27, 2019 9:53 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:52 pm
First of all you don't own any of your airplanes.

Secondly- some of those 330s are old.

Thirdly - the 330-200s are most of your 330s and AC has never wanted 200s - even on the used/leased market in their recent shopping trips. 200s don't fit... They will be short lived if they come at all...

Fourthly - the 321s, sure, but again AC have recently been on their own 321 shopping trips... incl. New CEOs, WOW CEOs, and more.... we would have gotten them anyway and without you attached, or at least the 45 options they hold on MAXs after that washes out or the 30 options on the CS300s - and so far you've only gotten 1 of the NEOs... and a couple CEOs kicking around...

Fifthly - the 310s and 737s are gone obviously immediately, earlier than Transat's current timeline... So what are you going to fly? AC metal.

Sixthly - as history has indicated (Canadi>n), AC mostly disposed of the fleet... used some of the 767s, a few of the old 737s as Zip for a while until somehow we had to take 320 pay concessions to roll the 737 flying back into mainline... So I just don't think your fleet will outlast you here... a few 321s... that's it... and 600+ pilots.

Seventhly - you don't augment any of your flying, yet you bring a slightly higher ratio of pilots:plane than we have, even if every fin comes and flies...

Again nothing personal, you asked, and that's just how I see it unfolding. Similar growth happens either way if it can be sustained...
I have a lot of respect for you and appreciate your opinion based on logic rather than emotion. I think anyone with any common sense will agree with almost everything you are saying. I even understand your desire to not see this deal go through and you still may get your wish. I’d probably feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

I still don’t agree with the fact you believe this is going to significantly stagnate your career or anyone else’s at AC. AC didn’t knock on our door because they wanted our planes. You said so yourself. They’re quite capable of acquiring them on their own. They’re likely not particularly interested in our hotel plans or land. What they wanted is our market share, our slot times, our network and what they wanted more was for Onex or some other entity NOT to get them. So sure, let’s say the 737’s are gone... we only have 5 left come the Fall anyway. 310’s are gone obviously and maybe some of the 330’s won’t make the cut. 321’s are on the way though and they’ll be part of the plan. But whether AC uses some or all of our aircraft or acquire others elsewhere, I’m certain they don’t plan on pissing away 20% of the market share for the South and over that for Europe. I’d like to remind you we fly Europeans whereas AC and WJ mostly fly Canadians. My point is AC will grow, along with it’s fleet and I like to think they could use 600 experienced International pilots to help with the process. The pilot/market/aircraft total is all relative. 200 fins and 4000 pilots and 250 fins and 5000 pilots is the same thing.

Anyway, I wish everyone all the best. Hopefully a few years down the road we’ll all be wondering why we ever got so excited in the first place.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Tue May 28, 2019 4:32 am

Thanks, and good discussion... but...
Just another canuck wrote: I’d like to remind you we fly Europeans whereas AC and WJ mostly fly Canadians.
Not sure where you get that? Maybe Westjet does... Not many outside Canada have heard of them

And maybe we fly mostly Canadians on the Thunder Bay or Winnipeg runs... I'll give you that...

I'd like to remind you that AC operates to every continent except Antarctica. We carry around half or more of our international cabin crews as language flight attendants not to talk to Canadians. We are part of the largest airline alliance in the world, a founding member. One of our biggest growth strategies has been on leveraging sixth freedom rights through our extensive network, AC has invested much in allowing people to go straight to international gates off other international flights, or go straight to US preclearance off international flights without having to pickup luggage, etc, make a seamless fast connection and has worked. We fly Europeans to South America, South Americans to Asia, Asians to the Caribbean, Americans to Australia, in fact Americans to around the world, and we bring the world to America. On most any given flight into our hubs we will have connections going most everywhere in the world... Not to mention we carry more people to Canada than any other airline and our market share has grown and is growing on its own through these strategies.

I'd like to remind you that Transat is a charter airline without a network. The Europeans you fly are primarily French going to Montreal and maybe the Caribbean. France is the only market Transat holds a strong position in. Particularly direct from secondary airports we don't or didn't serve. But in the last 5 years AC has established in LYS, NCE, MRS, now BOD coming... we're chipping into your market share anyway. Slots? Where? With a handful of exceptions you are flying to airports we already have slots at or airports that are largely underserved and would die to get another international flight...

Anyway, sorry for the pissing match, but you're a ways off on that statement... you are right on that this is defensive against Onex, let Westjet take some more bumps figuring out the whole overseas thing, and it piles in a bunch of pilots on and delays some of management's shortage problems... particularly the forecast shortage from F&D regs, Pax bill of rights, retirements, etc... Current AC pilots lose with that though and of course it's irrelevant to the C-suite... they'll all make a ton and be gone while we are left with the seniority fallout... Hope I'm wrong.
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FL-280
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL-280 » Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 am

It’s getting nasty already lol. I called it.

My guess, it the TS guys will be limited to rouge. AC pilots will be able to do mainline or rouge on a LOA.
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