DOH merge.

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GATRKGA
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by GATRKGA »

Dockjock wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:07 am I would not say it is fun to work at Air Canada, as a pilot. It can be fun, at times, but for the most part it is a grind. We work very, very hard and I think this is why many focus on the money. That said, I have my life away from work and wouldn’t really want the 2,3,4-day layovers away from my family that make it fun at work. AC pilots’ CBA is part of the reason AC is very profitable; it is a hometown discount. AC pilots want to live in Canada and our collective unwillingness (and inability, due to lack of really comparable airlines) to “walk away” is reflected in our WAWCON. Regardless, I hope TS’ influence as it is incorporated into AC’s culture, will be able to bring some of that balance here. As I said, we grind. Our vacation entitlement is small, and worthless. Our schedules come out mere days before the block month starts. Reserve rules are so old they are written on stone tablets. There are going to be changes on that front soon anyway, by law, but if we can collectively use this opportunity to carry forward some of the better aspects of TS, or at least become aware of them in advance of the next opportunity to make those changes, it will be for the better.
I’m personally not thrilled by the prospect of a merger but I understand it is somewhat of a defensive move rather than the perfect fit that was pursued as a blue sky idea. I really, really hope we can get the least bad outcome and then move forward such that we’re not still talking about it 10 yrs from now.
Perfect post. Thanks for truly being authentic.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso »

laserstrike wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm

The GGN and Jazz merge isn't even close to the same thing. The contract as a whole, was to include 350+ pilots leaving to mainline before the end of the year and effectively seniority wasn't effected. GGN has something like 200 pilots.

Without the GGN pilots there wouldn't have been the 60/90% flow deal. What the AT pilots coming over brings is just more bodies integrating with zero offset of people leaving to go to the "next step." It's working so far the last few AC classes have been majority Jazz.

Literally no Jr Jazz pilot was hurt. Everyone moved up the list significantly, lots of Jr Captains gone and going to mainline, lots of new upgrades... Hundreds.

There was also the argument that both were doing exactly the same flying for the same company and both ALPA carriers.

It's not comparable.
The junior Jazz PIlot took 200 Pilots senior to them and they were NOT hurt - dream on. Secondly the fact that two merging Airlines belong to the same Association means nothing. If both AC and Transat were ALPA nothing would change, any merger language in the collective agreement isn't worth the paper it is written on. ALPA Jazz gave the Georgian PIlots a windfall gift, they were a train wreck of an Airline that should have lost their OC.
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atphat
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by atphat »

GATRKGA wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 3:45 pm
Dockjock wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:07 am I would not say it is fun to work at Air Canada, as a pilot. It can be fun, at times, but for the most part it is a grind. We work very, very hard and I think this is why many focus on the money. That said, I have my life away from work and wouldn’t really want the 2,3,4-day layovers away from my family that make it fun at work. AC pilots’ CBA is part of the reason AC is very profitable; it is a hometown discount. AC pilots want to live in Canada and our collective unwillingness (and inability, due to lack of really comparable airlines) to “walk away” is reflected in our WAWCON. Regardless, I hope TS’ influence as it is incorporated into AC’s culture, will be able to bring some of that balance here. As I said, we grind. Our vacation entitlement is small, and worthless. Our schedules come out mere days before the block month starts. Reserve rules are so old they are written on stone tablets. There are going to be changes on that front soon anyway, by law, but if we can collectively use this opportunity to carry forward some of the better aspects of TS, or at least become aware of them in advance of the next opportunity to make those changes, it will be for the better.
I’m personally not thrilled by the prospect of a merger but I understand it is somewhat of a defensive move rather than the perfect fit that was pursued as a blue sky idea. I really, really hope we can get the least bad outcome and then move forward such that we’re not still talking about it 10 yrs from now.
Perfect post. Thanks for truly being authentic.
Lol. You mean you actually have to work for your money??

I work between 14 - 16 days a month for over 200 a year. Relatively soon I’ll work 12 - 14 days a month for over 300.

I guess it’s relative. Sure I focus on the money cause it’s the best part of my job. I don’t really consider work “fun” but I never did. Cause you know.....it’s work.
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory »

Yeah but is a day off really a day off if you spend it recovering from your work days?
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Victory wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:47 am Yeah but is a day off really a day off if you spend it recovering from your work days?
Hey Victory we actually agree on something. I group them together too. :smt040

It’s why I’d much rather work more and have less days feeling dumb tired. But that’s just me and why personally, blemishes and all, I prefer the variety AC provides.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Dockjock wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:07 am I would not say it is fun to work at Air Canada, as a pilot. It can be fun, at times, but for the most part it is a grind. We work very, very hard and I think this is why many focus on the money. That said, I have my life away from work and wouldn’t really want the 2,3,4-day layovers away from my family that make it fun at work. AC pilots’ CBA is part of the reason AC is very profitable; it is a hometown discount. AC pilots want to live in Canada and our collective unwillingness (and inability, due to lack of really comparable airlines) to “walk away” is reflected in our WAWCON. Regardless, I hope TS’ influence as it is incorporated into AC’s culture, will be able to bring some of that balance here. As I said, we grind. Our vacation entitlement is small, and worthless. Our schedules come out mere days before the block month starts. Reserve rules are so old they are written on stone tablets. There are going to be changes on that front soon anyway, by law, but if we can collectively use this opportunity to carry forward some of the better aspects of TS, or at least become aware of them in advance of the next opportunity to make those changes, it will be for the better.
I’m personally not thrilled by the prospect of a merger but I understand it is somewhat of a defensive move rather than the perfect fit that was pursued as a blue sky idea. I really, really hope we can get the least bad outcome and then move forward such that we’re not still talking about it 10 yrs from now.
This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
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snowcone
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by snowcone »

Will Transat pilots have DOH with realestate agents when they are bought out by a realestate company?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ToolShed »

snowcone wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:55 am Will Transat pilots have DOH with realestate agents when they are bought out by a realestate company?
Maybe they’ll get to wear the old Century 21 yellow jackets from the 80’s now!
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 »

ToolShed wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:54 am
snowcone wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:55 am Will Transat pilots have DOH with realestate agents when they are bought out by a realestate company?
Maybe they’ll get to wear the old Century 21 yellow jackets from the 80’s now!
The generation Z kind of joke? :?
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

FL320 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:33 am
ToolShed wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:54 am
snowcone wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:55 am Will Transat pilots have DOH with realestate agents when they are bought out by a realestate company?
Maybe they’ll get to wear the old Century 21 yellow jackets from the 80’s now!
The generation Z kind of joke? :?
Gen X. Gen Z was still 20 years to being born.
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WhatThe?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by WhatThe? »

The real estate company will liquidate the airline after securing the properties. Good luck Fellow Aviators.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

WhatThe? wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:51 am The real estate company will liquidate the airline after securing the properties. Good luck Fellow Aviators.
With QC gov. as a stake holder and in for $125 million in the proposed deal? Shutter the airline the Premier started and the jobs that do with it?

That not happening and will be a condition of their involvement, which it appears MACH needs at this juncture.

Although, I could see a joint deal formulated, where they get the QC side out of the deal and another investor comes in the $125 million then they liquidate the airline for the slots, gates, aircraft, airline specific assets, etc. - could be AC, ONEX, TUI - while MACH consortium takes the properties and an arrangement is made there on feeding the properties...

Certainly getting interesting.
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BE02 Driver
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BE02 Driver »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:54 am
Dockjock wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:07 am I would not say it is fun to work at Air Canada, as a pilot. It can be fun, at times, but for the most part it is a grind. We work very, very hard and I think this is why many focus on the money. That said, I have my life away from work and wouldn’t really want the 2,3,4-day layovers away from my family that make it fun at work. AC pilots’ CBA is part of the reason AC is very profitable; it is a hometown discount. AC pilots want to live in Canada and our collective unwillingness (and inability, due to lack of really comparable airlines) to “walk away” is reflected in our WAWCON. Regardless, I hope TS’ influence as it is incorporated into AC’s culture, will be able to bring some of that balance here. As I said, we grind. Our vacation entitlement is small, and worthless. Our schedules come out mere days before the block month starts. Reserve rules are so old they are written on stone tablets. There are going to be changes on that front soon anyway, by law, but if we can collectively use this opportunity to carry forward some of the better aspects of TS, or at least become aware of them in advance of the next opportunity to make those changes, it will be for the better.
I’m personally not thrilled by the prospect of a merger but I understand it is somewhat of a defensive move rather than the perfect fit that was pursued as a blue sky idea. I really, really hope we can get the least bad outcome and then move forward such that we’re not still talking about it 10 yrs from now.
This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ToolShed »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:12 am
FL320 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:33 am
ToolShed wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:54 am

Maybe they’ll get to wear the old Century 21 yellow jackets from the 80’s now!
The generation Z kind of joke? :?
Gen X. Gen Z was still 20 years to being born.
https://youtu.be/CkMoAKtjsL8
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

BE02 Driver wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:46 am
This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
[/quote]

Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BE02 Driver »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm
BE02 Driver wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:46 am
This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
[/quote]

I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

BE02 Driver wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:49 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm
BE02 Driver wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:46 am
This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
[/quote]

Uncle, uncle. It was an emotional justification, same with Canadian. Both are airlines that are (were) bleeding out financially. I love the brand but if I were a shareholder I'd be arguing same as you.

It's too bad, I haven't looked at the interior of their problems to know exactly where the bleeding is. I know they've done a lot of hiring in the last few years due to attrition to Air Canada, but I don't imagine that's at all a big factor. The reports indicate improvement in many areas but that they are still turning a loss. What's going on?
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Counterpoint
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Counterpoint »

If I were an Air Transat Pilot, I would ask an Air Canada Pilot what a COURSE RIGHT is and, try and guess how many and what kind of them would be provided in the event of a merged Pilot list.

Where you fit in the list is only one part of pay progression at Air Canada.
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ahramin
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ahramin »

I have been wondering about that Counterpoint. Captains coming in could easily be limited to 2 bids in the time they gave left at AC. A very weird situation for a group used to switching types at the drop of a hat.
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Counterpoint
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Counterpoint »

This merge, if it goes through, should be based on giving AT Pilots their CR first.

Once given, the progression part is solved. If you are a NB captain only at AT, you get a WC and a UR. If a AT Captain is a a guys that holds A330 and A320/737 then you give him a WC a NB and a UR. Same goes for the First O’s, only to both seats.

With that solved, the only thing left is the ratio contest. And it will be a ratio contest, because any arbiteur, will have read all the other merges and go with a very common practice.

Boooom.....you’re done.
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