DOH merge.

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BE02 Driver
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BE02 Driver »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm
BE02 Driver wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:46 am

This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
[/quote]

I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

BE02 Driver wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:49 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm
BE02 Driver wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:46 am

This has always been a concern for me amongst many regarding AC and why I've remained firmly on the sidelines. I grew up believing that AC was the be-all-end-all of Canadian aviation (thanks to stubborn family in the game - but that would also be pot calling the kettle...). The more you listen, the more you realize it's just another unionized shift job, with pilots and their abacus' comparing hourlys and pensions.

As an outsider, I loved traveling on TS with my family. They've always taken good care of us. My spouse loved her time there, but family took precedent. I am a little sad to hear TS potentially losing it's identity if this merger goes through.

So that being said - and sorry to all the TS pilots who were PFO'd from AC and see this as a way to get in - but I hope this deal falls through and TS remains independent and profitable.

Should that not happen, good luck to all the TS employees, it sounds like there are many at big red who would welcome you happily and I hope everyone gets an even and fair deal if and when the time comes.

S.
Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
[/quote]

Uncle, uncle. It was an emotional justification, same with Canadian. Both are airlines that are (were) bleeding out financially. I love the brand but if I were a shareholder I'd be arguing same as you.

It's too bad, I haven't looked at the interior of their problems to know exactly where the bleeding is. I know they've done a lot of hiring in the last few years due to attrition to Air Canada, but I don't imagine that's at all a big factor. The reports indicate improvement in many areas but that they are still turning a loss. What's going on?
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Counterpoint
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Counterpoint »

If I were an Air Transat Pilot, I would ask an Air Canada Pilot what a COURSE RIGHT is and, try and guess how many and what kind of them would be provided in the event of a merged Pilot list.

Where you fit in the list is only one part of pay progression at Air Canada.
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ahramin
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ahramin »

I have been wondering about that Counterpoint. Captains coming in could easily be limited to 2 bids in the time they gave left at AC. A very weird situation for a group used to switching types at the drop of a hat.
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Counterpoint
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Counterpoint »

This merge, if it goes through, should be based on giving AT Pilots their CR first.

Once given, the progression part is solved. If you are a NB captain only at AT, you get a WC and a UR. If a AT Captain is a a guys that holds A330 and A320/737 then you give him a WC a NB and a UR. Same goes for the First O’s, only to both seats.

With that solved, the only thing left is the ratio contest. And it will be a ratio contest, because any arbiteur, will have read all the other merges and go with a very common practice.

Boooom.....you’re done.
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BE02 Driver
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BE02 Driver »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:18 am
BE02 Driver wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:49 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm


Profitable?

We must be reading different financial reports.
Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
Uncle, uncle. It was an emotional justification, same with Canadian. Both are airlines that are (were) bleeding out financially. I love the brand but if I were a shareholder I'd be arguing same as you.

It's too bad, I haven't looked at the interior of their problems to know exactly where the bleeding is. I know they've done a lot of hiring in the last few years due to attrition to Air Canada, but I don't imagine that's at all a big factor. The reports indicate improvement in many areas but that they are still turning a loss. What's going on?
[/quote]

I'm not sure to tell you the truth. Their loosing money in relatively good economic times is enough for me to not bother with looking into them. Maybe I'm missing a diamond in the rough. Maybe not. There is enough good companies to invest in that I don't bother looking at the ones bleeding out. Expansion could be the reason. But by that metric WJ has expanded huge over they last 5 years, but has remained profitable. I just dunno.
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas »

BE02 Driver wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:43 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:18 am
BE02 Driver wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:49 am


Airline "profitable" 😁😅, losing 35ish million ain't bad for an airline in a fleet acquistion year, plus economical turmoil south of the border and poor USD/CAD performance.

May'be it's time they rebrand or restructure, getting sucked into AC isn't it though hehe.

S.
I disagree. If an airline is losing money when most other airlines are making money that's a bad sign. AC and WJ are taking in profits. If AT can't turn a profit in relative good times what makes you think they can when times get really tough?
Uncle, uncle. It was an emotional justification, same with Canadian. Both are airlines that are (were) bleeding out financially. I love the brand but if I were a shareholder I'd be arguing same as you.

It's too bad, I haven't looked at the interior of their problems to know exactly where the bleeding is. I know they've done a lot of hiring in the last few years due to attrition to Air Canada, but I don't imagine that's at all a big factor. The reports indicate improvement in many areas but that they are still turning a loss. What's going on?
I'm not sure to tell you the truth. Their loosing money in relatively good economic times is enough for me to not bother with looking into them. Maybe I'm missing a diamond in the rough. Maybe not. There is enough good companies to invest in that I don't bother looking at the ones bleeding out. Expansion could be the reason. But by that metric WJ has expanded huge over they last 5 years, but has remained profitable. I just dunno.
[/quote]

Selling seats at below cost , is the reason , for the continued losses. Flying ancient A 310's is not a money making proposition.
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Habslover
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Habslover »

Hi o, hi o, it’s off to fly 777 I go!!

Great news dis morning my friend, the acquisition has ‘append!
We will all be flying de mighty 777 soon! Our Unions are ‘ard at de work, making us winners in de coming years....while I will miss dis beautiful tree turdy, it is times I take de control of the Boeing. Like they say, “if it is a Boeing, I’ll skip over AC pilot on the list and get going!” I kid, I kid. After all it’s not skipping , it’s my company eh!

C’est la vie my friend....I’m off for a nice stroll on the South of France as I contemplate the years ahead, I had planned to retire at 60, but I’m afraid that is put off for now....making over 300 thousand dollars a year is much to nice to give up....afraid it’ll be 65 for me....who knows maybe 67!!
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Duke Point
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Duke Point »

Habslover wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:52 am
Hi o, hi o, it’s off to fly 777 I go!!

Great news dis morning my friend, the acquisition has ‘append!
We will all be flying de mighty 777 soon! Our Unions are ‘ard at de work, making us winners in de coming years....while I will miss dis beautiful tree turdy, it is times I take de control of the Boeing. Like they say, “if it is a Boeing, I’ll skip over AC pilot on the list and get going!” I kid, I kid. After all it’s not skipping , it’s my company eh!

C’est la vie my friend....I’m off for a nice stroll on the South of France as I contemplate the years ahead, I had planned to retire at 60, but I’m afraid that is put off for now....making over 300 thousand dollars a year is much to nice to give up....afraid it’ll be 65 for me....who knows maybe 67!!
Wow...that's really offensive. You should be banned from the forum.

DP.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Habslover has made a total of 6 posts. All of which are designed to get under the skin of AC pilots. Ignore him.

Im sure he is going to be a pleasure to work with. We have asshats too.
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

I'd be very surprised if that tool is a TS pilot.
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TheStig
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TheStig »

When rouge was created in 2010-2011 pay tables for the 767 were cut and pasted from Transat and the A319’s from WestJet. Air Canada was loosing money and market share. In the past 8-9 year both pilot groups have made small improvements in their contracts.

I know this is the internet, but for a second, look at the potential upside this merger presents to the combined pilot group. Air Canada is profitable and merging with the largest trans-Atlantic operator in the country, this removes a lot of downward pressure on pay.

As Fanblade has mentioned, the merger opens up the ACPA collective agreement. We can all agree that the 10 year agreement was negotiated too early and locked in the ACPA group before wages took off in the US market and globally. Everything is back on the table.

The obvious concerns for pilots are seniority integration (which has and will continue to be beaten to death) and fleet size reductions. In 2014 Air Canada sold the pilot group on fleet growth and career progression, then did the same with the Jazz pilot group (twice), I imagine they will go back to that well.
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TCAS II
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TCAS II »

The plan is to maintain the two companies as separate entities, maintaining the two different brands, head offices and key functions in Montreal, the companies said in a release.

"This combination delivers excellent value, while also providing increased job security for both companies' employees through greater growth prospects," Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu said.
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DanWEC
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC »

Air Canada has stated it intends to run Transat as it's own brand.
I predict there will NOT be a merger of the pilot groups.

There's no way AC would just voluntarily increase the salaries of TS pilots, since at the end of the day, their wages and benefits are lower by a little bit.

They would be over the moon to be able to keep 600 pilots at their current rate. Remember, AC has and will do absolutely anything possible to keep pilot wages depressed. Being at the top of the food chain (Amazingly) they are ostensibly responsible for the increasing pilot shortage in this country.

I predict maintaining current pay, but add AC benefits, and perks such as travel (Though probably at C4 lol) and operational improvements in the way of AC's booking and flight planning, etc.

Also, I would bet that AC would promote allowing a regular interview for TS pilots, and if successful would of course start at 4 year flat pay, which nobody would be able to acccept except for guys in maybe the first year or two. So that would be a red herring.

The other way it could go would be to make a parallel with Rouge, but the CBA would have to be opened and renegotiated, since it would double the LCC numbers.

Either way, I'm pretty sure none of you AC guys who were so uproarious about losing a few precious seniority numbers will have to worry about a thing.

Hoping it will all be positive, but any of these changes will be a year or two down the road at least, so anything now is just spitballing. At least TS now has security for the foreseeable future!

Cheers
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Last edited by DanWEC on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

ACPA is not going to allow a seperate pilot group to operate on behalf of AC. Allowing that is the beggning of the end. No major airline in North America allows it.

The contract prevents it.
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DanWEC
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC »

. Oops fat thumbs.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JoeyBarton
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by JoeyBarton »

Even with scope language preventing them to grow?
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

JoeyBarton wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:33 pm
Even with scope language preventing them to grow?
Opening that door is a very very bad idea. The two groups will just get played against each other.

Air Canada will still need to abide by the current Scope language which means that whatever form Transat/Rouge takes, it can't be much larger than Rouge's current size. We want the B scale reduced. Not expanded.

One positive, if you think like me, is we will need a certification vote. Hopefully bye bye ACPA
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yycflyguy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by yycflyguy »

Duke Point wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:28 am
Habslover wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:52 am
Hi o, hi o, it’s off to fly 777 I go!!

Great news dis morning my friend, the acquisition has ‘append!
We will all be flying de mighty 777 soon! Our Unions are ‘ard at de work, making us winners in de coming years....while I will miss dis beautiful tree turdy, it is times I take de control of the Boeing. Like they say, “if it is a Boeing, I’ll skip over AC pilot on the list and get going!” I kid, I kid. After all it’s not skipping , it’s my company eh!

C’est la vie my friend....I’m off for a nice stroll on the South of France as I contemplate the years ahead, I had planned to retire at 60, but I’m afraid that is put off for now....making over 300 thousand dollars a year is much to nice to give up....afraid it’ll be 65 for me....who knows maybe 67!!
Wow...that's really offensive. You should be banned from the forum.

DP.
Actually, it made me smile. Every single issue in Canadian aviation rolled up into one post. If you can't laugh at yourself.....
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:19 pm
One positive, if you think like me, is we will need a certification vote. Hopefully bye bye ACPA
Are you crazy? Shut down your representation the day you need it the most? The AT MEC at that moment would take over the whole group... No matter how disfunctional ACPA may be, that's ridiculous. Put the acquisition to bed first, then revisit ALPA.
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Duke Point
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Duke Point »

Calin says he will integrate Transat into Air Canada.

There is no way -any- pilot will fly AC code on aircraft above 75 seats without being on the ACPA pilot seniority list.

Keeping the Transat "identity" will not be allowed without it being enshrined in an entirely new Collective Agreement. LOU 74 is "Rouge specific", and there is currently NO other language in the contract allowing for another entity, "independent or otherwise".

Air Canada is in a time of record profits and has a record high share price. The pilots are locked into a 10 years deal that has a sub-"standard of living" wage increase, an unnecessary 1.5% pension over-payment among many other irritants.

There will NEVER be a better opportunity to unify the AC pilot body. If this is squandered, it will be lost forever. Its time to "level the field" and pay all pilots like pay for like work, get rid of LOU 74, get rid of Socialized bidding that jeopardizes and "up-ends" the seniority concept.

The more we embrace a "Delta-like contract", shelf all the "FOS concessionary crap", the better off we'll all be.



Wait for the "burning platform" position, and for ACPA to say....." we're negotiating with a gun to our head", so "sorry, best we could do"…..AGAIN.
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Jettime3
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Jettime3 »

Fanblade wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:57 am
ACPA is not going to allow a seperate pilot group to operate on behalf of AC. Allowing that is the beggning of the end. No major airline in North America allows it.

The contract prevents it.
You are right and the same for Air Canada CUPE back end . The only way it's going to work is keep it separate and make it similar to an Air Canada Express which operates on behalf . No one at AC need to worry about seniority merging , it's not happening.
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Duke Point
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Duke Point »

Jettime3 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:11 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:57 am
ACPA is not going to allow a seperate pilot group to operate on behalf of AC. Allowing that is the beggning of the end. No major airline in North America allows it.

The contract prevents it.
You are right and the same for Air Canada CUPE back end . The only way it's going to work is keep it separate and make it similar to an Air Canada Express which operates on behalf . No one at AC need to worry about seniority merging , it's not happening.
WRONG. A seniority merger will happen. No Air Canada Express operator flys aircraft with more than 75 seats, and one will NOT be set up that does.

Its crazy to think for even a second that there will be another airline with a separate pilot list flying around in large jets owned by AC. The Contract, that Calin said ".....will be respected...." is -absolutely crystal clear- about this.

I don't know how people come up with this stuff.

DP.
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FL-280
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL-280 »

[/quote]

WRONG. A seniority merger will happen. No Air Canada Express operator flys aircraft with more than 75 seats, and one will NOT be set up that does.

Its crazy to think for even a second that there will be another airline with a separate pilot list flying around in large jets owned by AC. The Contract, that Calin said ".....will be respected...." is -absolutely crystal clear- about this.

I don't know how people come up with this stuff.

DP.
[/quote]

I dont know how you come up with the regionals can't fly aircraft with more than 75 seats, we better ground all the Q4 and the RJ'S then eh.... seems like no one knows what they are talking about.

My guess, TS, will stay TS.... and this story aint over boys
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garfield
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by garfield »

Before that happening you need :
A) Shareholders approval (I don't know why a shareholder would sell for 13$ when you can get 14 or even more)
B) Minister approval (more likely)
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