DOH merge.

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:41 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:04 am
Be careful what you wish for. Transat's management has a proven record for milking the company and losing money , on a constant basis.
Year Net Income in Millions

1996 22,202
1997 25,364
1998 19,731
1999 30,022
2000 36,64
2001 -99,0
2002 11,678
2003 -9,147
2004 72,32
2005 55,416
2006 65,77
2007 78,503
2008 -50,011
2009 61,847
2010 65,607
2011 -11,652
2012 -13,536
2013 61,202
2014 20,066
2015 46,964
2016 -36,759
2017 138,372
2018 7,361

Net Income Over the period 1996-2018 $598,96
Over a 23 year period the company posted a loss only in 2001, 2003, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2016.

I think all years before 1996 were profitable.
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:41 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:04 am
Be careful what you wish for. Transat's management has a proven record for milking the company and losing money , on a constant basis.
Year Net Income in Millions

1996 22,202
1997 25,364
1998 19,731
1999 30,022
2000 36,64
2001 -99,0
2002 11,678
2003 -9,147
2004 72,32
2005 55,416
2006 65,77
2007 78,503
2008 -50,011
2009 61,847
2010 65,607
2011 -11,652
2012 -13,536
2013 61,202
2014 20,066
2015 46,964
2016 -36,759
2017 138,372
2018 7,361

Net Income Over the period 1996-2018 $598,96
Over a 23 year period the company posted a loss only in 2001, 2003, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2016.

I think all years before 1996 were profitable.
You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also the cost of operating out of YMX was dirt cheap compared to YUL. WD was also a very profitable charter airline, as long as they stuck to charters, when they tried to compete with AC and CP they went under. Both WJ and AC are much stronger companies than anything TS has ever faced in the past.
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:31 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:41 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:04 am
Be careful what you wish for. Transat's management has a proven record for milking the company and losing money , on a constant basis.
Year Net Income in Millions

1996 22,202
1997 25,364
1998 19,731
1999 30,022
2000 36,64
2001 -99,0
2002 11,678
2003 -9,147
2004 72,32
2005 55,416
2006 65,77
2007 78,503
2008 -50,011
2009 61,847
2010 65,607
2011 -11,652
2012 -13,536
2013 61,202
2014 20,066
2015 46,964
2016 -36,759
2017 138,372
2018 7,361

Net Income Over the period 1996-2018 $598,96
Over a 23 year period the company posted a loss only in 2001, 2003, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2016.

I think all years before 1996 were profitable.
You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also the cost of operating out of YMX was dirt cheap compared to YUL. WD was also a very profitable charter airline, as long as they stuck to charters, when they tried to compete with AC and CP they went under. Both WJ and AC are much stronger companies than anything TS has ever faced in the past.
The past is the past; let’s look at the future like Colin R. does: AC and Transat together as a big family. Teamwork! 👍
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:54 pm

FL320 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:31 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:41 pm


Year Net Income in Millions

1996 22,202
1997 25,364
1998 19,731
1999 30,022
2000 36,64
2001 -99,0
2002 11,678
2003 -9,147
2004 72,32
2005 55,416
2006 65,77
2007 78,503
2008 -50,011
2009 61,847
2010 65,607
2011 -11,652
2012 -13,536
2013 61,202
2014 20,066
2015 46,964
2016 -36,759
2017 138,372
2018 7,361

Net Income Over the period 1996-2018 $598,96
Over a 23 year period the company posted a loss only in 2001, 2003, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2016.

I think all years before 1996 were profitable.
You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also the cost of operating out of YMX was dirt cheap compared to YUL. WD was also a very profitable charter airline, as long as they stuck to charters, when they tried to compete with AC and CP they went under. Both WJ and AC are much stronger companies than anything TS has ever faced in the past.
Tsgas, the past is the past; now look at the future like Colin R. does: AC and Transat together as a big family. Teamwork! 👍
I agree with you 100 % . It's like the Italian racing team in the Gumball Rally would say " wat's behind me in not a portant ". It was Gilles that brought up the past with the 1996 stuff.
Teamwork and a positive attitude makes for a happy , prosperous enterprise. :supz:
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:24 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm

You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also the cost of operating out of YMX was dirt cheap compared to YUL. WD was also a very profitable charter airline, as long as they stuck to charters, when they tried to compete with AC and CP they went under. Both WJ and AC are much stronger companies than anything TS has ever faced in the past.
These assets that were sold were either created from scratch (by investment) and resold with profit, or purchased an earlier year (thus reducing the net profit that year), and later resold. They were not received as gifts or fall from a cloud, as your statement seems to imply.
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:29 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:24 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm

You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also the cost of operating out of YMX was dirt cheap compared to YUL. WD was also a very profitable charter airline, as long as they stuck to charters, when they tried to compete with AC and CP they went under. Both WJ and AC are much stronger companies than anything TS has ever faced in the past.
These assets that were sold were either created from scratch (by investment) and resold with profit, or purchased an earlier year (thus reducing the net profit that year), and later resold. They were not received as gifts or fall from a cloud, as your statement seems to imply.
Gilles you sound like a socialist . Look up the accounting term "wind fall' than we may be able to have an intelligent debate. :roll:
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:31 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:54 pm
It was Gilles that brought up the past with the 1996 stuff.
Gilles was just setting the record straight after you wrote this :
Transat's management has a proven record for milking the company and losing money , on a constant basis.
The record shows that Transat made a profit 25 out of 31 years of existence.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:34 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:31 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:54 pm
You omitted the fact that some of those profits were from one time "wind falls" , like selling travel agencies , selling the ground services operation , and selling a hotel. Also t It was Gilles that brought up the past with the 1996 stuff.
Gilles was just setting the record straight after you wrote this :
Transat's management has a proven record for milking the company and losing money , on a constant basis.
The record shows that Transat made a profit 25 out of 31 years of existence.
6 years of loses , and counting is the reason that the company is up for sale.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:38 pm

Duplicate
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:40 pm

FL320 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:12 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:14 am
Just another canuck wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:55 pm

Would you rather the merge happen or no merge and every TS employee lose their job? Just curious.
I object to your false analogy.

I don't want AC to acquire Transat. Period.

Status quo, Mach, Onex, I don't care. But not AC.

I made no inference on the balance of your fallacy.
What are you afraid of?
Anyway we both know the deal with AC will be finalized at the end of the poker game; there is no need to worry so much! :goodman:
Not afraid of anything. I'm just happy with status quo.

Why do you have such a difficult time acknowledging that we're doing better without you.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:03 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:29 pm

Gilles you sound like a socialist . Look up the accounting term "wind fall' than we may be able to have an intelligent debate. :roll:
Whenever I get called epithets, like socialist, stupid or ignorant in a debate, I know the other guy has an argument deficiency.

My statement stands.
Windfall profits are large, unexpected gains resulting from lucky circumstances. Such profits are generally well above historical norms and may occur due to factors such as a price spike or supply shortage that are either temporary in nature or longer lasting.
Selling a Tour Operator or another airline that you had previously purchased is not Windfall profits.
On the other hand Transat Stock gaining value because of the AC purchase offer is Windfall profit.
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:03 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:29 pm

Gilles you sound like a socialist . Look up the accounting term "wind fall' than we may be able to have an intelligent debate. :roll:
Whenever I get called stupid or ignorant in a debate, I know the other guy has an argument deficiency.

My statement stands.
Windfall profits are large, unexpected gains resulting from lucky circumstances. Such profits are generally well above historical norms and may occur due to factors such as a price spike or supply shortage that are either temporary in nature or longer lasting. /quote]

Selling a Tour Operator or another airline that you had previously purchased is not Windfall profits.
On the other hand Transat Stock gaining value because of the AC purchase offer is Windfall profit.
Whenever I see someone tell an outright lie , I know that he is too emotional to be logical. Twisting my words around will not win an arguement.

Your are entitled to your opinion , weather or not it is factual.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:17 pm

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Whenever I see someone tell an outright lie , I know that he is too emotional to be logical. Twisting my words around will not win an arguement.

Your are entitled to your opinion , weather or not it is factual.
So now I’m an emotional and illogical liar as well, one that twists your words around ?

Let’s leave at that then.
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tsgas
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:25 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:03 pm
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:29 pm

Gilles you sound like a socialist . Look up the accounting term "wind fall' than we may be able to have an intelligent debate. :roll:
Whenever I get called epithets, like socialist, stupid or ignorant in a debate, I know the other guy has an argument deficiency.

My statement stands.
Windfall profits are large, unexpected gains resulting from lucky circumstances. Such profits are generally well above historical norms and may occur due to factors such as a price spike or supply shortage that are either temporary in nature or longer lasting.
Selling a Tour Operator or another airline that you had previously purchased is not Windfall profits.
On the other hand Transat Stock gaining value because of the AC purchase offer is Windfall profit.
It's considered a Wind Fall because it can only happen once. Once the asset is sold it no longer creates revenue . Shares are considered as equity and not profit of loss for the company , however to the individual shareholder it would be considered a wind fall.
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:12 am

Getting off topic, but I just was curious if anyone has the info on hand about how many losses AC had over the same years. (Yes I could look it up myself, but, it'd require effort).

On topic; I'm willing to bet, that, if Mache were to succeed in getting the necessary shares, and ultimately succeed in acquiring TS (low probability- 'what if' scenario here). AC would aggressively go after the Mache TS and I would give Mache 5-7 yrs before wanting to end it's airline adventure. Puts us up for sale which AC would buy at a cheaper price. So in the end, we just delay the inevitable, IMO.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:22 am

tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:25 pm
It's considered a Wind Fall because it can only happen once. Once the asset is sold it no longer creates revenue . Shares are considered as equity and not profit of loss for the company , however to the individual shareholder it would be considered a wind fall.
Transat is not an airline, its a Tour Operator which owns many subsidiaries, including an airline. The financial figures I provided are not Air Transat's, whose figures have never been public, but Transat AT's. During its whole existence, Transat has always created or purchased subsidiaries, which it sometimes later sold.
A few examples. Transat sold Anyway in 2003. It sold it's 49% Stake in French Star Airlines in 2005. It sold Handlex in 2012. It sold Look Voyage and Tourgreece in 2016. In 2017 it sold Jonview Canada Inc and its stake in Ocean Hotel....But throughout these same years Transat also purchased other subsidiaries and grew rather than downsized.........

So for the windfall theory of the one shot revenue.....
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tsgas » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:43 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:22 am
tsgas wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:25 pm
It's considered a Wind Fall because it can only happen once. Once the asset is sold it no longer creates revenue . Shares are considered as equity and not profit of loss for the company , however to the individual shareholder it would be considered a wind fall.
Transat is not an airline, its a Tour Operator which owns many subsidiaries, including an airline. The financial figures I provided are not Air Transat's, whose figures have never been public, but Transat AT's. During its whole existence, Transat has always created or purchased subsidiaries, which it sometimes later sold.
A few examples. Transat sold Anyway in 2003. It sold it's 49% Stake in French Star Airlines in 2005. It sold Handlex in 2012. It sold Look Voyage and Tourgreece in 2016. In 2017 it sold Jonview Canada Inc and its stake in Ocean Hotel....But throughout these same years Transat also purchased other subsidiaries and grew rather than downsized.........

So for the windfall theory of the one shot revenue.....
Accounting it not an exact science , and that's why when AC's accountants looked at the books for TRZ they found an accounting irregularity. TRZ had to Restate some numbers for April 30,2018.
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Last edited by tsgas on Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:36 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:40 pm
FL320 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:12 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:14 am


I object to your false analogy.

I don't want AC to acquire Transat. Period.

Status quo, Mach, Onex, I don't care. But not AC.

I made no inference on the balance of your fallacy.
What are you afraid of?
Anyway we both know the deal with AC will be finalized at the end of the poker game; there is no need to worry so much! :goodman:
Not afraid of anything. I'm just happy with status quo.

Why do you have such a difficult time acknowledging that we're doing better without you.
Altiplano...your CEO wants to buy Transat, there is a reason: if you were doing better without us this would have never happened. I am surprised to see someone so proud to work in a place where you don’t share the same vision as the direction...🤔
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:49 am

The Mach offer is only for a portion of Transat’s shares. Specifically just enough to block a sale to AC and nothing else. So then what? Personally I would be taking the $13/share rather than gambling on the $14/share and no real change in direction. If Mach is able to block the AC purchase I would think Transat’s share price would drop back into the single digits. 20% of shareholders getting $14 and the rest left holding a $6-$8 stock and no change in direction????? That makes no sense.

What am I missing about Mach and what is motivating them?
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:31 am

FL320 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:36 am
I am surprised to see someone so proud to work in a place where you don’t share the same vision as the direction...🤔
Ha! Like it's the first time that executives' interests diverged from the Pilots'.

Executive visions come and go, and through it all Pilots (AMEs & Dispatchers too) endure and get what counts done in spite of it.
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Warden
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Warden » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:27 pm

Big bid tomorrow. Apparently the biggest AC has ever had.

Get that left seat bid in before they all disappear for a decade.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TFTMB heavy » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:00 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:40 pm
FL320 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:12 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:14 am


I object to your false analogy.

I don't want AC to acquire Transat. Period.

Status quo, Mach, Onex, I don't care. But not AC.

I made no inference on the balance of your fallacy.
What are you afraid of?
Anyway we both know the deal with AC will be finalized at the end of the poker game; there is no need to worry so much! :goodman:
Not afraid of anything. I'm just happy with status quo.

Why do you have such a difficult time acknowledging that we're doing better without you.
There will be no status quo, someone will buy Transat. I think the safest route for AC is to be the purchaser. Onex buying Transat, whether directly or thru Mach, would not be favourable to AC.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:09 am

Warden wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:27 pm
Big bid tomorrow. Apparently the biggest AC has ever had.

Get that left seat bid in before they all disappear for a decade.
Rumours have it that the company is planning to delay the bid until after the Transat shareholder vote.

During the last merge AC moved a bunch of hiring to Canadian Airlines to take pressure off the AC training department.

Transat has under utilized aircraft and a training department that isn’t way behind the power curve.

AC won’t let Transat’s under utilized fleet stay under utilized while waiting for seniority integration.

Make no mistake. If the shareholders vote yes? Some of those positions will show up on the Transat side while we await seniority integration.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:13 am

I mean status quo at AC.

As I said earlier I'm unperturbed by whatever track TS takes status quo, Onex, Mach, whatever, don't care... AC is doing just fine.

It would absolutely be favourable to AC pilots however it were to come that we don't acquire TS.

I don't believe Onex is looking to acquire Transat anyway. If they were though, I don't see a downside for AC with that either. In fact I see an upside.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:26 am

Transat slams Group Mach bid as ‘abusive’, says it will challenge offer with Quebec securities regulator

Mach, Transat said, would be able to exercise the voting rights of the shares tendered to it before paying for them, a “bait-and-switch” tactic.

Alfred Buggé, Mach’s vice-president of mergers and acquisitions, dismissed the Transat accusations as “posturing.” He said by phone Mach has $100-million ready to pay for the 19.5-per-cent of Transat if the Air Canada takeover is voted down. At the same time, shareholders have the right to transfer their voting privileges to Mach while retaining ownership of the shares, he said.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... challenge/
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