DOH merge.

[Stan Darsh]

There's always a certain percentage of jerkoffs at every company, AT included. The pilot group at AC is fractured. The top 40% have been through a lot, including an extremely contentious merger and are very wary of a seniority merge. The bottom 60% skew fairly junior due to the massive growth, and stand to lose the most if DOH were to take place. If this is the position that ALPA takes, there really is no other approach for ACPA other than BOTL with the understanding that the final arrangement will be somewhere in between. It's not personal, it's protecting the interests of AC pilots, who really have nothing to gain materially from this whole thing, other than the prospect of negotiating a new contract and addressing irritants ahead of schedule. I think you will find that the majority of AC pilots are apprehensive but ready to work with and welcome our AT colleagues, with one eye on the next contract.

1.5 YOS

[WhatThe?]

Merger based on Current Pay.
Would not be too hard to slot pilots into pay groups that match their current pay at AT. Air Canada pays bettter so a 330 Captain may slot into a 320 Captain job at AC.
It would suck for any pilots with less than 4 years when they get a pay cut for the remainder of the 4-year new hire pay though...

[Fanblade]

There's always a certain percentage of jerkoffs at every company, AT included. The pilot group at AC is fractured. The top 40% have been through a lot, including an extremely contentious merger and are very wary of a seniority merge. The bottom 60% skew fairly junior due to the massive growth, and stand to lose the most if DOH were to take place. If this is the position that ALPA takes, there really is no other approach for ACPA other than BOTL with the understanding that the final arrangement will be somewhere in between.

ACPA does not have a DOH list. You can’t merge DOH when one doesn’t exist.

The first thing the arbitrator decided in the AC/CDN merger was the type of integration.
DOH VS Ratio. Questions like which one provides likes with likes and no windfall gains or losses. Does a DOH list exist in a reasonable form.

The AC/CDN merge became a ratio by category merge. AC WB CA/CDN WB CA integrated evenly by ratio. Then NB CA and so forth down the list. Last time there was a wrinkle. AC had a category that didn’t exist at CDN. RP’s. So the last category, NB FO, became a catch all for everyone left. This, plus a re ratio is what created an 8:1. AC/CDN ratio on the bottom of the list. Today those pilots are in the top 40%. You’re right they are very leery of another fiasco like the last.

Today we have the same issue, but even more so. Today AC pilots don’t just have 1 extra category that Transat doesn’t have. We have 5 extra categories. Rouge WB CA/ WB FO and Rouge NB CA/ NB FO plus RP’s.

Where Transat fits into those extra categories who knows. Does a Transat 330 CA merge with AC WB CA or Rouge WB CA. Are we going to see yet again a catch all bottom category of predominantly AC pilots because of the RP category? In fact the arbitrator may well decide that like DOH, a category/ratio merge is just not clean enough. I think it is clear that a merge by category poses risk to both sides.

The arbitrator may choose to move on to another form of ratio. A straight ratio. Or multiple variable ratios with anchor points they choose on the list. If the arbitrator goes this route I would expect to see a fairly evenly distributed Transat integration across the AC list with possible anchor points and variable ratios if windfall gains and losses appear. Maybe some time limited fences on top.

We can do this ourselves. Or have it forced. Our collective choice.

We leave this to an arbitrator and we will simply end up with their version of fair against a backdrop of precedence. There is a good chance injustice will take place at some point on the list and the arbitrator won’t really care.

If we as a group choose not to be reasonable, but rather take up adversarial positions? Make no mistake, that is a choice. A choice that may come with consequences we don’t like. It will be no one else’s fault than our own.

Like Stu above, my expectations are that someone will probably take an unreasonable position that drives the situation into an adversarial relationship and arbitration.

One can only hope this does not happen, however likely it may be.

[Goldencondor]

We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.

[altiplano]

We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.

I'm sure grandfathered rates until the AC rate is higher will be part of the package that gets negotiated. Possibly for everyone on property senior to the most junior grandfathered pilot even.

But I'm highly suspect that AC will want it's pound of flesh to outright get rid of the 4 year flat though. We'll have to see how high a price (concession) they ask...

[Jean-Pierre]

The ACPA should just buy Air Transat. It would only be like $150k per person.

[Stan Darsh]

We might see an end to the flat pay concept at least for the ones on the property the moment the purchase is completed. No junior AT pilot will loose pay or vacation. The merge list will make them slot in the proper pay table with a top up. AC year 1 is barely higher but then AT year 2, 3 and 4 is more. Plus AT year 3 and 4 is according to WB/NB. By year 5 AC pay tables are higher.

I'm sure grandfathered rates until the AC rate is higher will be part of the package that gets negotiated. Possibly for everyone on property senior to the most junior grandfathered pilot even.

But I'm highly suspect that AC will want it's pound of flesh to outright get rid of the 4 year flat though. We'll have to see how high a price (concession) they ask...

I don't see why we would give another inch on anything at this point. If the contract is up for a premature negotiation it is the end result of an extremely advantageous position the company has found itself in, and the pilot group has a part in facilitating that. This merger is a good play for AC but a negative for the existing AC pilots. IF this deal is finalized and a merger is imminent, we HAVE to capitalize on the opportunity to negotiate early.

[altiplano]

I agree on what you're saying, I'm not suggesting we give anything... more like - look how much they would ask for that.... I think a lot.

We have to think about our moves very carefully though. WRT negotiation early. Before this deal dropped? Absolutely, open it up.

But now? We need to see what the company is doing first, how their plans, esp. fleet plans are unfolding.

One thing to keep in mind is LCC expansion and Article 1 are not permitted to be arbitrated under the 10 year framework MOA. They are locked down and untouchable unless we give.

Open the contract up just as the corporation needs to expand the LCC with a bunch of 330s? We have seen where things go when CR isn't getting what he's wanting... remember, he's 10 moves ahead of us... maybe 50... careful about taking any bait...

Suddenly our extra 1% for 5 years is being paid for by moving another 600 jobs to B-scale...

Again, I'm not saying don't open it up, but we need to be careful... suddenly it will be AC pilots painted as the politician's bad guy, particularly in Quebec, because we don't want to keep 600 B-scale jobs there... and an arbitrator would kill us.

And before someone jumps on me, I'm not saying axe Transat pilots in that statement, I'm saying keep a lid on B-scale at AC... If we get more WBs, let them be A.scale... that is if you can call any pay scales in this country "A"...

[laserstrike]

I've heard the idea floated to let all the AT pilots keep their seats, and pay plus progression as per their current contract but place them for seniority at the bottom. Then pay protect until which time they meet and exceed their pay protected status on the AC rate.

It's not ideal, but it keeps their pilots making the money they make and flying the plane they fly, and won't effect any pilot currently on property.

600 pilots joining in above the bottom is a lot of widebody Captains in the future.

A lot of people made their decision to come to air Canada based on future retirements, fleet plan etc. This essentially wipes out %25 of the projected retirements for the next 20 years. That's no small number and for anyone who's joined in the last year or two, that's career lasting effects.

[Puffpuffpass]

Above post is spot on, how would a Transat pilot be able to complain about being allowed to hold his same seat out of Senority, with a pay raise? Obviously they should have to join the bottom of the list at AC...they started working here after everyone else!!

I also don’t agree with these fences protecting certain groups. What kind of fence is going to protect the 3 yr guy here? I could care less about myself, no matter what happens here I won’t be affected.

It will no doubt go to arbitration, unless ACPA and AC have a little something up their sleeves, which I’m starting to think they might. Our Rouge President left out of the blue this week past.

[laserstrike]

Above post is spot on, how would a Transat pilot be able to complain about being allowed to hold his same seat out of Senority, with a pay raise? Obviously they should have to join the bottom of the list at AC...they started working here after everyone else!!

I also don’t agree with these fences protecting certain groups. What kind of fence is going to protect the 3 yr guy here? I could care less about myself, no matter what happens here I won’t be affected.

It will no doubt go to arbitration, unless ACPA and AC have a little something up their sleeves, which I’m starting to think they might. Our Rouge President left out of the blue this week past.

I'm hearing a lot of people agree with this sentiment. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I chose to leave a pretty cushy job at Jazz to go to AC. My decision was pretty hard to make given I was essentially layoff protected at Jazz, had a great schedule in the left seat and it would have only continued to get better. I decided to come based on retirement and fleet projections, plus the fact I was supposed to have 600 pilots BELOW me in a year and a half. I chose to stay in the AC umbrella by doing my time at Jazz, and shouldn't be disadvantaged for my loyalty to the brand.

Now, if the majority of AT pilots slide in above me.. it will really effect potential upgrades, schedule and long term career prospects. Many of them chose to got to AT and there are a number who left the AC family (Express mostly) with no intention of working for AC. Why give them the biggest of all payoffs with seniority, pay increases and many more opportunities for widebody left seats than they would have ever seen at AT.

Let them keep their seats, and pay. But put them at the bottom. Give them YOS for pay and vacation for all I care. But when it comes to bidding rights, they should go where they belong. The bottom.

I might sound like an asshole, but this is my life here... and yes it's theirs too. But that's the risk you take going to go work for a charter airline, many of which haven't had that great of lifespan in Canada over the years.

[Fanblade]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

[laserstrike]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

Either way us Jr folks will be fucked. Slot them in? Fucked. Bottom? Goes to arbitration? Fucked.

So I'd rather see ACPA try to protect us at least. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. But I want them to try. They have a Duty of Fair Representation to protect any AC pilot on the property. AT are ALPA, they aren't ACPA. They are a charter, they aren't a real airline. ACPA owes them nothing.

[Fanblade]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

Either way us Jr folks will be fucked. Slot them in? Fucked. Bottom? Goes to arbitration? Fucked.

So I'd rather see ACPA try to protect us at least. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. But I want them to try. They have a Duty of Fair Representation to protect any AC pilot on the property. AT are ALPA, they aren't ACPA. They are a charter, they aren't a real airline. ACPA owes them nothing.

Based on the last merge.

Count the number of RP's at AC. There is a real risk an arbitrator may decide they don't have a like for like on the Transat side.

It has happened already once. A straight ratio of AC:CDN pilots would have been 2:1. The bottom ended up 8:1. A sea of red on the bottom of the list.

CDN was bankrupt. CDN paid 75% less. CDN progression was brutally slow compared to AC.

It didn't matter. It was the AC new hires who got crushed.

Your better cutting a deal than rolling the dice.

[ahramin]

I can understand the AC pilot position of sending all TS pilots to the bottom of the list. Obviously if one's only concern is how well they make out with no regard for anyone else, the logical position is not to let anyone onto the list above them.

What I can't figure out is how someone can perform the mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves that this is fair and makes sense. So far the main arguments seem to be

1. "I chose to go to AC based on no merger, therefore current TS pilots should be below me". One could just as easily say that current TS pilots chose to go to AT based on no merger, and should therefore be above all current AC pilots after the merger.

2. "I made sacrifices to get to AC and therefore should be above all current TS pilots". Current TS pilots made sacrifices as well to get to TS, how is this different? I must admit that I always found the "sacrifice" or "paying dues" argument ridiculous for any pilot position so maybe it's something I'll just never understand. Most airline pilots in Canada didn't make it to the majors until after their 30s and chose to put up with poor conditions at 704 operators to get there. Does this mean current new hires don't deserve to be here? Why not simply insist anyone under 30 joining the majors automatically go to a B scale since they didn't have to go through what the rest did?

3. "If the current TS pilots are fairly integrated in the seniority list, it will hurt my seniority". Well, if the current TS pilots are put to the bottom of the list, it will probably hurt their seniority. If the fleet increases by 20% and the pilot pool increases by 20% and the seniority list gets merged fairly, how does this hurt upgrades? It's laughable to suggest that somehow pay protecting someone and putting them to the bottom of the list is fair. Think of a pilot one week away from their upgrade at TS getting sent to the bottom of the list, but it's ok because they get pay protected as a WB FO.

All of these arguments seem to boil down to the notion that the lists should not be merged fairly because it would be unfair for the current AC pilots to get anything less than all the gains from the acquisition of TS. BOTL is not happening, there isn't an arbitrator on the planet who is going to state that the proper position for seniority #1 at TS is below the newest hire currently at AC. If the merger goes through, all AC and TS pilots will be AC pilots within a year or so. We can all fight amongst ourselves trying to get ahead by pushing everyone around us down, or we can try to become a unified group of AC pilots and finally make some gains.

[laserstrike]

Not everyone is joining AC in their 20's you know. Many many people in their 30's and 40's. All of which are now going to get fucked sideways.

[fish4life]

I’d say the guys at AT are getting kinda screwed as well, between all my friends at AT and AC the AC guys might make more but they also work way more. A lot of my AT friends are going to lose the good schedules they currently enjoy. One of the reasons why some people chose AT instead of AC was the schedule.
They were ok taking less pay for the other quality of life factors so the idea of “they should be happy they are getting a pay raise” may make sense because you chose AC because of the higher earning potential but for a lot of people they have other goals.

[ahramin]

I guess it depends on what you mean by that. What are the career expectations for a 40 year old joining AC today if the merger doesn't happen and how does that change if the merger does happen?

[laserstrike]

Do we really know how many aircraft are actually coming over? Where they will go etc.

At the end of the day when it comes time to vote, I need to see the big picture. If the fleet is growing by the same or more than the eqivelant pilots coming over then I can deal with it. But do we really think that's going to happen? The 737s will likely be gone, the older 310's, gone. What does that leave us with, 20 330's and a dozen 320s? Are all the future orders going to see the line? Is AC going to sell them off to the higest bidder? Are the 7373 MAX's going to leave the fleet and these NEOs only replace what we already had? Etc. etc.

[Fanblade]

Truth be told 20 years ago I had a heck of time watching the majority of a bankrupt company's pilots pile in front of me on the AC list. It made no sense to me. It seemed unjust at the time.

My point is only this. An arbitrator won't care about your expectations. It's irrelevant what you think your future was going to bring. His/her picture will be a snap shot of today.

That is reality

How AC might move forward with combined entity is also irrelevant.