DOH merge.

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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Sun May 19, 2019 1:59 pm

DanWEC wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:29 pm
by the time all this flushes out a year from now you'll get probably 100 guys instantly UNDER you. :)
Wow 100 guys.
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife » Sun May 19, 2019 2:01 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:57 pm
thesimplelife wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:59 am

Well, there is also another group affected.

Those who decided to stick it out at an Express carrier because they were told that was the "way to AC," finally made it to mainline in the last year after AC decided hiring Westjet pilots instead for a whole summer two years ago was a better idea... Now they made their decision to stay loyal to the AC brand instead of going to AT like many colleagues did at the time and will have ALL 600 pilots slot in ahead of them.
They might slide ahead of them, but they also bring planes. That's the big difference.

If somehow, 600 AT pilots where hired and no planes were bought, or replaced or added, then yes, absolutely, I understand all points made here.

But there will be more planes. So it won't matter. More pilots, but more planes. Those pilots mentioned in your example could be jealous that other pilots are getting into AC "easier" if you wish, but it won't affect the junior AC pilot's careers. Trying to send them to BOTL because you are jealous or envious of others is a bad motivator.
I agree with you.

I am still for DOH. I think it will say something for pilot solidarity in Canada and the sooner we stop trying to step on everyone for a few to get ahead the sooner we will all be able to get ahead. If the CEOs loose their ability to pit pilot group against pilot group, the better off we'll all be. The SKR, JAZ, GGN example is a good one... Make everyone fight for table scraps while the bosses and those sitting at the top 10% keep making more.

Remember though, FOR it... So long as we all get something for it. Nothing is free, including a smooth transition for CR and his buddies. Want a smooth transition? Pay up.

All in all I hope everyone is right and it won't make that much of an affect. After all, everyone was so stressed out about the GGN/JAZZ pilot group merge but it showed to cause very little if any of disruption because of the addition of aircraft to the fleet.
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Sun May 19, 2019 2:08 pm

All in all I hope everyone is right and it won't make that much of an affect. After all, everyone was so stressed out about the GGN/JAZZ pilot group merge but it showed to cause very little if any of disruption because of the addition of aircraft to the fleet.
Exactly, no sense getting worked up until we know the details. If or when it happens, it's still a long ways away. For now it's something the MECs will have to figure out and propose to us.
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Ki-ll
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Ki-ll » Sun May 19, 2019 2:32 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:23 pm
Ki-ll wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:20 am
TFTMB heavy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:11 am

The 500 pilots slotting ahead come with aircraft, the ratio stays the same for career progression. BTW, I'm pretty sure TS operates the aircraft with less crews per than AC, so it will create even more upgrades.
You don’t know the fleet plan for the AT airplanes. AT has more junior pilot group as well. You have to look at a 30 year career progression, not next 5 years. AC 330 rates were less than 777 rates last time I checked.
Do you know the fleet plan? What are the stats on age in both groups? There's a lot we don't know but you seem to think AC pilots will get screwed? I highly doubt they will re-train TS pilots in the near future, the name of the game is profits, not pissing away 50 million dollars on training.
We will patiently wait for details.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TFTMB heavy » Sun May 19, 2019 2:58 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:57 pm
thesimplelife wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:59 am

Well, there is also another group affected.

Those who decided to stick it out at an Express carrier because they were told that was the "way to AC," finally made it to mainline in the last year after AC decided hiring Westjet pilots instead for a whole summer two years ago was a better idea... Now they made their decision to stay loyal to the AC brand instead of going to AT like many colleagues did at the time and will have ALL 600 pilots slot in ahead of them.
They might slide ahead of them, but they also bring planes. That's the big difference.

If somehow, 600 AT pilots where hired and no planes were bought, or replaced or added, then yes, absolutely, I understand all points made here.

But there will be more planes. So it won't matter. More pilots, but more planes. Those pilots mentioned in your example could be jealous that other pilots are getting into AC "easier" if you wish, but it won't affect the junior AC pilot's careers. Trying to send them to BOTL because you are jealous or envious of others is a bad motivator.
Although I feel it unlikely that TS pilots will get merged into the AC group it is important to note that we always operate 2 crews so the addition of TS tails would create more positions at AC with the need for more RPs. We also run with fewer captains and FOs per tail, so even more positions at AC.
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Just another canuck
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Sun May 19, 2019 7:48 pm

I fail to see how this can be a bad thing for the AC pilot group at all, even if DOH were to be implemented. Adding more planes from a company that runs skeleton crews, no relief pilots and rarely augmented flights. As far as I know we're getting the new 321's but have the option for many more. I suspect anyone that can retire may and some that were considering foreign work may do that as well. You'll now have the option to renegotiate your contract rather than wait a number of years and fix or improve on things you didn't like. Adding the AT pilot group through DOH may bother some folks simply because you feel they aren't deserving but what's it really going to cost you? Nothing. In fact, this AT purchase stands to greatly improve AC in general. What am I missing?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by infiniteregulus » Sun May 19, 2019 7:58 pm

The individual cost for a junior AC guy would be around 5-6 years of upper end seniority decades down the road. If the average retiring rate is ~100 guys/year, that's 5-6 years for 500-600 Transat pilots ahead. Then take those 5 years at captain salary of say $300,000 and that yields $1.5M dollars in lost career earnings. Then add 5 years of possible junior pay over a command upgrade, so FO-NB Capt is about a $100,000 times 5 is $500,000. So now you're at $2 Million dollars in lost earnings. Plus 5 years of junior schedules and pass travel/commute seniority. That's the individual cost to you.
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danield
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by danield » Sun May 19, 2019 8:09 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:48 pm
I fail to see how this can be a bad thing for the AC pilot group at all, even if DOH were to be implemented. Adding more planes from a company that runs skeleton crews, no relief pilots and rarely augmented flights. As far as I know we're getting the new 321's but have the option for many more. I suspect anyone that can retire may and some that were considering foreign work may do that as well. You'll now have the option to renegotiate your contract rather than wait a number of years and fix or improve on things you didn't like. Adding the AT pilot group through DOH may bother some folks simply because you feel they aren't deserving but what's it really going to cost you? Nothing. In fact, this AT purchase stands to greatly improve AC in general. What am I missing?
The issue lies in how the airline grows. Growth was already outlined. It was progressive over the years with new hires filling the spots year by year. Yes the airline grows overnight but rather than hiring 650 year 1 pilots, people who have devoted 20 years of their career to the airline and can now attain a WB CA position will see their seniority take a hit. The contract has been a VERY hard work in progress with the likes of the LCC in Canada and it is not fair that somebody else should instantly benefit from ACs superior pay and working conditions without waiting in line like everybody else did. Nor do I believe they should be taking a pay reduction. I believe BOTL with pay provisions is the fairest approach. Or DOH predicated on how much the airline will grow, 40 AT airplanes / 200 AC airplanes = 20% DOH with pay provisions. These pilots will still have better conditions than they current have even with BOTL and stand to make WAY more for the remainder of their career at AC. Everybody should benefit, not just AT pilots.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Sun May 19, 2019 8:15 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:58 pm
The individual cost for a junior AC guy would be around 5-6 years of upper end seniority decades down the road. If the average retiring rate is ~100 guys/year, that's 5-6 years for 500-600 Transat pilots ahead. Then take those 5 years at captain salary of say $300,000 and that yields $1.5M dollars in lost career earnings. Then add 5 years of possible junior pay over a command upgrade, so FO-NB Capt is about a $100,000 times 5 is $500,000. So now you're at $2 Million dollars in lost earnings. Plus 5 years of junior schedules and pass travel/commute seniority. That's the individual cost to you.
We're bringing planes with us with a lack of crew for AC standards, among a number of other factors. Plus the rights for more aircraft, which means more jobs if AC goes down that path. You're acting like 600 pilots are just being injected into the AC pilot pool with your current fleet and infrastructure. This is nonsense. And just because you're not making 300 doesn't mean you're making 0. And like I said, we're bringing the aircraft with us with a lack of crews. That upgrade may come sooner than previously anticipated.
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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sun May 19, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Just another canuck » Sun May 19, 2019 8:19 pm

Double
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Sharklasers » Sun May 19, 2019 8:37 pm

I dont care about DOH,
I just want this to go smooth and to all move forward together and if DOH with pay protection gwts that done then that is what we should go for.
Im concerned about a relative seniority merge that would place 2006 hires at Transat against 1997-1999 hires at AC. That Transat pilot would then get another 20 years at the trough holding up the movement for those coming up behind them.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by infiniteregulus » Sun May 19, 2019 9:29 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:15 pm
infiniteregulus wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:58 pm
The individual cost for a junior AC guy would be around 5-6 years of upper end seniority decades down the road. If the average retiring rate is ~100 guys/year, that's 5-6 years for 500-600 Transat pilots ahead. Then take those 5 years at captain salary of say $300,000 and that yields $1.5M dollars in lost career earnings. Then add 5 years of possible junior pay over a command upgrade, so FO-NB Capt is about a $100,000 times 5 is $500,000. So now you're at $2 Million dollars in lost earnings. Plus 5 years of junior schedules and pass travel/commute seniority. That's the individual cost to you.
We're bringing planes with us with a lack of crew for AC standards, among a number of other factors. Plus the rights for more aircraft, which means more jobs if AC goes down that path. You're acting like 600 pilots are just being injected into the AC pilot pool with your current fleet and infrastructure. This is nonsense. And just because you're not making 300 doesn't mean you're making 0. And like I said, we're bringing the aircraft with us with a lack of crews. That upgrade may come sooner than previously anticipated.
That's assuming they keep those new fins. The 310 is gone, the 737s are a maybe, and the old Air Canada 320s were already halfway out the door until the MAX brought them back in. More likely they'll dump their currently old 320s and replace em with the new Transat ones. The 330s don't run RP and are YUL based so no addition there. Whether more NBs come or not, 600 guys ahead of you is significant. Last I heard there's 640 or so WB Captain positions at Air Canada, not including Rouge. So theoretically, that would be an ENTIRE WB CA roster filled by Transat pilots. Severe career stagnation for a lot of AC guys.
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sportingrifle
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by sportingrifle » Sun May 19, 2019 10:32 pm

Just curious if anyone has this data handy...

How many pilots does AT have ?
What is the median age?
What is the median years of service?

Thanks, Sportingrifle.
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fruitloops
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fruitloops » Sun May 19, 2019 10:56 pm

some blasts from the past for those that want to read about how bad the AC - CP merge was and how many times it was appealed/revisited let's hope we don't follow anything along these lines

http://www.globalfusion.com/unsecured/A ... t_2008.pdf

Chronology
BRIEF CHRONOLOGY OF KEY SENIORITY LABOUR BOARD AND
COURT DECISIONS November 29, 2007.
04/01/00 Air Canada acquires Canadian Airlines.
31/03/01 Arbitration Award of M.G. Mitchnick re pilot seniority integration
10/07/02 CIRB in Decision 183 quashes Mitchnick Award at request of
Canadian pilots represented by ALPA; CIRB finds that Mitchnick
Award violates principles of Canada Labour Code
27/03/03 Federal Court of Appeal dismisses ACPA’s judicial review application
of CIRB Decision 183
20/11/03 Supreme Court of Canada dismisses ACPA’s application for leave
to appeal this decision of the Federal Court of Appeal.
22/02/03 ACPA and Canadian pilots enter agreement to conduct a new
seniority arbitration with provision that the decision of the
arbitration panel will be “for all purposes final and binding on the
parties [Air Canada, ACPA, ALPA] and the seniority list resulting
from the decision will be the seniority list that shall be implemented
by the parties” subject only to judicial review by the courts. ALPA
ACPA Air Canada Keller protocol Agreement
16/06/03 Arbitrator Brian Keller issues new seniority integration
award. Keller Award is implemented by Air Canada.
06/03 ACPA seeks CIRB Reconsideration of the Keller Award
notwithstanding “final and binding” provisions of the arbitration
agreement.
28/01/04 CIRB unanimously dismisses ACPA’s application to reconsider Keller
Award in Decision 263. CIRB finds that ACPA is bound by the “final
and binding” commitment it had made and that Keller Award
8 Further Info: http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/ Air Canada Pilots only http://www.caselab.com/keller/
14/02/05 Federal Court of Appeal unanimously dismisses ACPA’s judicial
review application of CIRB Decision 263. Federal Court of Appeal
also finds that ACPA is bound by the “final and binding”
commitment and agreed with the CIRB conclusion that “its
intervention was neither warranted nor justified”.
20/05/05 Justice Dawson of the Federal Court Trial Division dismisses ACPA’s
application to quash the Keller Award on grounds that the arbitrator
had violated rules of natural justice. Justice Dawson comments that
“there is a public interest in bringing finality to this dispute”.
16/06/05 CIRB issues Decision 1269 which gives reason for dismissing a
further application by ACPA that the CIRB reconsider its own
Decision 263. CIRB concurs with its earlier decision and refers to
the decision of the Federal Court of Appeal which had sustained
Decision 263. CIRB declares that “no labour relations purpose
would be served by adding yet another layer of review”.
23/09/05 ACPA and Air Canada retain Martin Teplitsky to review the Keller
Award and later ask the CIRB for permission to amend the Keller
seniority list.
10/11/05 The Supreme Court denies ACPA’s application for leave to appeal
the Federal Court of Appeal decision upholding CIRB decision 263.
15/02/06 The Federal Court of Appeal dismisses ACPA’s appeal of the
Federal Court Trial Division’s decision to dismiss ACPA’s application
to quash the Keller Award.
10/03/06 CIRB issues Decision 349 denying ACPA and Air Canada’s request
to consider whether the Teplitsky recommendations would violate
the Canada Labour Code. “The pilot seniority list, the result of
the Keller arbitration process, is now final and binding on
ALPA, ACPA, and Air Canada. ACPA and Air Canada, acting
alone, cannot change the list because some pilots in the
bargaining unit are dissatisfied with it.” [emphasis added]
29/06/06 The Supreme Court of Canada denies ACPA’s application for leave
to appeal the February 15, 2006 Federal Court of Appeal decision
upholding the Federal Court Trial Division’s decision which upheld
the Keller Award.
01/09/06 The CIRB issues Decision 360 which rejects ACPA’s application to
reconsider Decision 349.
Further Info: http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/ Air Canada Pilots only http://www.caselab.com/keller/ 9
19/06/07 The Federal Court of Appeal unanimously reject’s ACPA’s judicial
review application concerning CIRB Decisions 349 and 360.
29/11/07 The Supreme Court denies ACPA’s application for leave to appeal
the February 15, 2006 Federal Court of Appeal decision rejecting
Teplitsky and upholding the Keller Award.

Summary: Since July 2002 the position of the former Canadian Airlines pilots,
represented by ALPA, has been sustained by numerous and all
decisions rendered by the CIRB, the Federal Court Trial Division, the
Federal Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court of Canada. The Keller
Award has been consistently sustained in its entirety.
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Mon May 20, 2019 2:45 am

Yeah ACPA is going to give DOH even though they fought against it with Canadian FOR SEVEN YEARS.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso » Mon May 20, 2019 7:51 am

Although I agree with DOH as a principal, Transat will never get it. Canadi>n was a much closer "likes with likes" Airline to AC and were unable to attain DOH. It would take the top 330 Captain and give them a 50% + pay raise (777 Captain pay,) which is an easy argument for "windfall gains."

Now the wingnuts heads are exploding claiming BOTL, which is laughable (not to mention professionally embarrassing,) that a supposed Professional Pilot would think a 330 Captain should be junior to the bottom newhire Relief Pilot. Although we heard the same rhetoric when they thought a 747-400 Captain at Canadi>n should be junior to a F/O on a clapped out RJ.

I wish the Transat Pilots the best, huge upside is we'll get a Representation Vote and hopefully send ACPA to the history books.
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digits_
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by digits_ » Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am

danield wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:09 pm
I believe BOTL with pay provisions is the fairest approach. Or DOH predicated on how much the airline will grow, 40 AT airplanes / 200 AC airplanes = 20% DOH with pay provisions. These pilots will still have better conditions than they current have even with BOTL and stand to make WAY more for the remainder of their career at AC. Everybody should benefit, not just AT pilots.
Seriously? You don't get affected negatively, but you want AT pilots to go BOTL or lose seniority so that you can profit?

What is wrong with you?

I can understand people wanting to hold on to what they have, but keeping people down so that you can get even further ahead is just plain wrong.
You are already the highest paid pilots in Canada. Now that someone else has a shot at those salaries you want to block them for no other reason than that you want a pay raise?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Goldencondor » Mon May 20, 2019 9:10 am

digits_ wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
danield wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:09 pm
I believe BOTL with pay provisions is the fairest approach. Or DOH predicated on how much the airline will grow, 40 AT airplanes / 200 AC airplanes = 20% DOH with pay provisions. These pilots will still have better conditions than they current have even with BOTL and stand to make WAY more for the remainder of their career at AC. Everybody should benefit, not just AT pilots.
Seriously? You don't get affected negatively, but you want AT pilots to go BOTL or lose seniority so that you can profit?

What is wrong with you?

I can understand people wanting to hold on to what they have, but keeping people down so that you can get even further ahead is just plain wrong.
You are already the highest paid pilots in Canada. Now that someone else has a shot at those salaries you want to block them for no other reason than that you want a pay raise?
A blend formula for seniority would be the best outcome with protections considering all the other benefits this deal offers to only a single group if contract remains unchange. And to think AC will swallow all theese planes is frivolous. Like somebody said there is the aging of AC 320 fleets. Now some destinations will see reassignement of equipment due to both AC and AT serving that destination. Yes there will be some growth but I only see the 330 and 321LR sticking around. 2 planes that AC was actively looking for in the market prior any sort of deal. With the bonus from that reduction being that you have a quick intake of pilots to overcome the (vacancies/passenger bill of rights/new duty reg) open positions.
That will make the junior guys at AC being shifted if straigh DOH is given and and reducing the flow of people coming behind. Making he AC pilot group the overall looser by slowing upgrades and putting them the closest to furloughs.

A good deal will be one that no group got major gains on top of the other, both will make concessions and it will all be ok.

So stop thinking about your schedule and your seat and bla bla bla me me me. Most of us will loose something that we had going for us. As long as it is leveraged fairly thru both groups. Look at the big picture.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fruitloops » Mon May 20, 2019 10:08 am

" A blend formula for seniority would be the best outcome with protections considering all the other benefits this deal offers."

It's in everyone's best interest to satisfy both parties and grow this operation to one of the best in the world. As the more wise posters have said all along here it will be a blend of DOH and some fences or protection for each group from cross bidding or whatever for the short term so potential progression isn't stunted for anyone.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Mon May 20, 2019 3:49 pm

DOH can not work because AC's seniority list is not DOH. I bet we have more than 1/2 our list, maybe more, that is not in their DOH spot. Some by a little. Some by a fair bit.

The AC list is a Legacy of multiple prior mergers that have shuffled the deck too far from DOH


It would be like trying to match up two decks of cards after one deck got shuffled.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by AOW » Mon May 20, 2019 5:09 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:01 pm
ahramin wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:33 pm
Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
The contract says no such thing. It wouldn't matter even if it did.

Most AC pilots I talk to know full well that BOTL is not a rational response. But I will give you that there are few hot heads out there and as always they are some of the most vocal.

Every group has them.
Actually, it is in the contract!
“4.01.02” wrote:For greater clarity, in the event of any future declaration of common employer
status and/or declaration of sale of business; purchase or merger of airlines or
parts thereof; or other combination of flying operations under the Company, the
seniority of employees who are to be added to the seniority list as a result of such
an event will commence no earlier than the date of the issuance of any CIRB order
regarding the declaration of common employer status and/or sale of business, the
date of the future purchase or merger of airlines, or the date of such other future
combination of flying operations, as the case may be.
That being said, I don’t see the CIRB agreeing to BOTL. Our best bet is to find a fair balance that everyone can agree to, and avoid arbitration! I also see this as an opportunity to open the contract, and make some real gains! Maybe that’s just wishful thinking.... but maybe we can use the same list of comparators as were used for the CEO’s compensation,!!
The table below describes the companies which have been identified in accordance with the above criteria and included in Air Canada’s comparator group, as well as each organization’s level of alignment to Air Canada’s peer profile requirements in the list below for 2018. The comparator group for the President and Chief Executive Officer excludes the four financial institutions named below and indicated by an *.
Relevant Criteria

Large Airline
Transportation Sector or Aviation Related
Revenues Exceeding $5 Billion
Extensive Customer Service
Highly Technological Environment


Company
American Airlines Group Inc.
Bank of Montreal*
BCE Inc.
Bombardier Inc.
CAE Inc.
Canadian National Railway Company
Canadian Pacific Railway Limited
Canadian Tire Corporation, Limited
Celestica Inc.
Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Domtar Corp.
Enbridge Inc.
EnCana Corp.
Nutrien Ltd.
Rogers Communications Inc.
Royal Bank of Canada*
SNC-Lavalin Group Inc.
Southwest Airlines Co.
SunLife Financial Inc.*
Telus Corporation
Toronto-Dominion Bank*
Transat AT Inc.
TransCanada Corp.
United Continental Holdings, Inc.
WestJet Airlines Ltd.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Dry Guy » Mon May 20, 2019 5:53 pm

BOTL is in the contract and the company have stated that they intend to fully respect our collective agreement.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso » Tue May 21, 2019 2:36 am

Dry Guy wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:53 pm
BOTL is in the contract and the company have stated that they intend to fully respect our collective agreement.
Mom's calling Dry Guy, time to come inside
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by atphat » Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 am

Everyone is nicey nice now. That’s great. Make no mistake this will turn ugly. Like every other merger every other time. The Transat pilots will advocate for themselves only, as they should. And so will AC pilots.

It will be decided in arbitration and the Transat pilots will end up the huge winners. Especially the senior ones.

Enjoy your pay raise boys.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by pilotbzh » Tue May 21, 2019 5:21 am

AT will be merge with Rouge, pilots will be place BOTL for seniority but carry years of services for pay and holidays, protected in they're current positions ... If you think the top AT pilots would be able to bid 777capt the day after the merger you're kidding yourself....Then after 2 years of lawsuits, a new seniority list will be created pissing off everybody... :goodman:
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