DOH merge.

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tdp19
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tdp19 » Sun May 26, 2019 6:01 am

I'm a 3rd year F/O at AC and as much as I like the idea of the junior AC people that have been posting about BOTL it will NOT happen nor do I really think it should. AS TSAM said they are coming into it with airplanes and experienced crews of which AC needs. Selfishly I don't want this merger for my career but AC management doesn't care about me or any other pilot. We are all a number to them, easily disposed off as CALIN has said in past roadshows when the talk of better pay and working conditions came up.... I've been discussing this with a few colleagues that went through the CDN merger (still disgruntled to this day, and I do see why) and I think its best to come up with a deal between pilot groups. I don't like uncertainty of arbitration and would rather know what we are getting ahead of time and put it to a vote. I know it is difficult because AC doesn't technically have a DOH seniority list but I would be okay with a 1.5 - 1 YOS, meaning if you have 1.5 years at Transat you slide in at 1 year on seniority list at AC and vise versa. I would stand to loose about 450-500 numbers but if you look at my overall percentage before and after the merger it is virtually the same. Around 77%. TSAM, do you think that is fair?
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 » Sun May 26, 2019 6:14 am

laserstrike wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 4:28 pm
Not everyone is joining AC in their 20's you know. Many many people in their 30's and 40's. All of which are now going to get fucked sideways.
Life is not fair and not only in aviation; you’d better realize it asap and live with it. Jazz is not AC, they’re just a subsidiary. You joined Jazz, not Air Canada... Accepting these shitty conditions instead of going to Transat, Westjet, Sunwing is your own decision - if you have to blame someone, blame yourself.
I’ve also spent my time flying around at Jazz, do you seriously believe that flying a RJ or Dash around is worth flying a wide body around the world? I’ve done both and there’s no comparison:as an employer perspective looking for competencies, I know what I would do...
I am 100% for a fair deal, I am willing to give up my Captain seat for a fair deal, but come on...going BOTL because a pilot from Jazz is unhappy is not serious. Again, what competencies do you bring to AC from your previous job at Jazz compared to Air Transat (and Sunwing and Westjet and Cathay and so on..) pilots? Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
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Last edited by FL320 on Sun May 26, 2019 7:09 am, edited 10 times in total.

Stu Pidasso
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso » Sun May 26, 2019 6:40 am

Here we go with the revisionist history, Canadi>n was never bankrupt and we didn't get a 25% pay raise. Air Canada on the other hand did go bankrupt.

If I earn $15 / hour at McDonalds and work 20 hours a week, then start working 30 hours a week I earn more money - but it is not a pay raise.

Canadi>n Pilots out earned AC on every contract up until the last one prior to the merger. AC Pilots flew substantially more hours than Canadi>n. All in it was a slight pay raise but a far cry from 25%. Contract for Contract I would have taken the CAIL one hands down. Not to mention CAIL's smallest jet was a 737, verses a RJ.

No RP's ; No RJ's.

Now back Transat, if ACPA goes to an Arbitrator with a BOTL solution we will get eaten alive. You have to present a reasonable list and have solid arguments. "Windfall Gains" is something a reasonable Arbitrator understands. Taking the number one 330 Captain and giving them a 50% plus raise, while punishing the junior AC Pilots is outrageous.

For a newhire AC Pilot to think a Transat 330 Captain should go junior to them is equally outrageous. It is unfortunate for anyone who quit Transat to come to AC, but nothing new there. Plenty of history of Pilots quitting one Airline to join another and regretting it. It is the mindset of sh*tting on your fellow Professional Pilots that has this industry in such a mess.

We definitely want to do our best for all the AC Pilots, where the problem lies is within ACPA. The new MEC Chair is still sputttering about the last merger, 19 years ago, even though he personally made out like a bandit. We'll see who is appointed to a Merger Committee, their track record is somewhat suspect.
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 am

tdp19 wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:01 am
I'm a 3rd year F/O at AC and as much as I like the idea of the junior AC people that have been posting about BOTL it will NOT happen nor do I really think it should. AS TSAM said they are coming into it with airplanes and experienced crews of which AC needs. Selfishly I don't want this merger for my career but AC management doesn't care about me or any other pilot. We are all a number to them, easily disposed off as CALIN has said in past roadshows when the talk of better pay and working conditions came up.... I've been discussing this with a few colleagues that went through the CDN merger (still disgruntled to this day, and I do see why) and I think its best to come up with a deal between pilot groups. I don't like uncertainty of arbitration and would rather know what we are getting ahead of time and put it to a vote. I know it is difficult because AC doesn't technically have a DOH seniority list but I would be okay with a 1.5 - 1 YOS, meaning if you have 1.5 years at Transat you slide in at 1 year on seniority list at AC and vise versa. I would stand to loose about 450-500 numbers but if you look at my overall percentage before and after the merger it is virtually the same. Around 77%. TSAM, do you think that is fair?
Even at 1 for 1 for example, you may have 450 or so slide in ahead of you, but you also have 200 or so go behind you. Again, big picture is positions being added through our fleet. That upgrade comes a bit closer barring any drastic fleet reductions that AC may/maynot have planned. For example, let's say we have 100 open positions we bring over with us due to what I mentioned in my previous post. Having at least 1/4 of TS pilots behind you means at least 25 extra positions open to you that your seniority can hold. If you're bottom of the list at AC today, how would you feel if 100 positions were added tomorrow? Additionally, how many pilots is AC short right now and planned for? Adding TS pilots will not dent that #. Far from being screw over IMO. Still want to scream BOTL? We can do the same for TOTL (Top of the List) (both outrageous), and let an arbitrator decide. I'm sure we all can agree we don't want that outcome.

Overall if all goes ideally, no one will ever notice a reduction in seniority % or upgrade times if affected. Most, if not all should benefit especially in a new contract. I'm sure when the MECs sit down and crunch the numbers to reflect this most can breathe easy. I'm very certain no one at AC will lose their position. Same can't be said for TS pilots.

As you noted tdp, AC mgmt does't give 2 airborne facks about pilots. Everyone should be focused on that and what they expect from the pilots with a re-opener. Mgmt saying they will honour the current contract, sounds good, but if you look from their angle, it means no improvements and status quo, and the planes added as per the contract allows, and leave us to deal with the seniority. Who is screwing over AC pilots now? TS pilots or your mgmt? As I stated before, we are all on the same side, brothers & sisters, so I wish the Negative Nancy's at AC would direct their hate to their mgmt.
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Sun May 26, 2019 8:19 am

I expect all current Rouge pilots will be brought back to mainline. Rouge will be a completely separate airline and be manned by Transat pilots and they will not be merged. The ACPA will agree to this because it means the end of the B-Scale and prevents the Transat pilots from messing up everyone's careers.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am

FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sun May 26, 2019 9:04 am

Victory wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 8:19 am
I expect all current Rouge pilots will be brought back to mainline. Rouge will be a completely separate airline and be manned by Transat pilots and they will not be merged. The ACPA will agree to this because it means the end of the B-Scale and prevents the Transat pilots from messing up everyone's careers.
Not going to happen. But just to play devils advocate.

- What do you think would happen when 768 pilots re enter the mainline list? Certainly it would solve AC’s pilot shortage.
- Now that another pilot group holds those jobs what happens to opportunities for ACPA pilots?
- Then what happens down the road when the Transat pilots are pissed with our behaviour and offer to do mainline work for less?

Do any of these things sound like they might mess up one career?
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sun May 26, 2019 9:24 am

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:40 am
Here we go with the revisionist history, Canadi>n was never bankrupt and we didn't get a 25% pay raise. Air Canada on the other hand did go bankrupt.

If I earn $15 / hour at McDonalds and work 20 hours a week, then start working 30 hours a week I earn more money - but it is not a pay raise.

Canadi>n Pilots out earned AC on every contract up until the last one prior to the merger. AC Pilots flew substantially more hours than Canadi>n. All in it was a slight pay raise but a far cry from 25%. Contract for Contract I would have taken the CAIL one hands down. Not to mention CAIL's smallest jet was a 737, verses a RJ.

No RP's ; No RJ's.
Thanks for the observations Stu.

Take away for today’s situation.

1) AC pilots may gross more. Our hourly rate maybe more. But do we make more per hour at work? In the current case it might be the Transat pilots who make more per hour at work. This is why pay becomes irrelevant.

2) Notice Stu’s reference to No RP’s ; No RJ’s. He doesn’t mention the 8:1 ratio at the bottom of the CDN/AC merger however this was the justification for it. He still seems to believe that RP’s are less than 737 pilots and he is on the AC side of the fence. Do you think it’s possible that some Transat pilots might be thinking the same way? Since it is a precedence, what would you do if the situation was reversed.

The problem with a merger is no one wants to lose anything. Everyone starts coming up with their own rationalizations, justifications, and excuses as to why they think they deserve special treatment. Everyone believes in their position but the arbitrator will only follow one. Their is risk it won’t be yours. There is risk an arbitration can go horribly wrong.
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FL320
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 » Sun May 26, 2019 9:45 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
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Hangry
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Hangry » Sun May 26, 2019 10:12 am

FL320 wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:45 am
altiplano wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
I hope the bulk of TS plots aren’t like you. You should absolutely make a stand and not come over.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Sun May 26, 2019 10:30 am

FL320 wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:45 am
altiplano wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
I'm the exact opposite... wife wants to move to France, but I don't want to commute... Maybe I can borrow your passport and license and you can have my seniority#...
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DanWEC
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC » Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am

You two guys that saying the potentially incoming TS pilots aren't worth crap have a very creative understanding of basic math.
4100 pilots at AC, 600 at TS, with DOH spread all through the roster.
Two point you guys need to see:
1) With a DOH blend, it's a good assumption there would be just as many ex-TS guys under you as above.
And
2)Since the pool of pilots and planes would be EXPANDING based on the merger there would be ZERO DISPLACEMENT. The ratios remain the same. Your career will stay the same.

Not trying to sound rude.

Cheers.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano » Sun May 26, 2019 11:15 am

I disagree the aircraft will be expanding the fleet. Older TS 330s will be cut loose, 310s gone, 737s gone...

There will be more TS pilots than fins, AC would have sourced the 330/320s anyway, they have actively been...
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atphat
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by atphat » Sun May 26, 2019 11:19 am

I'm not sure how 8 pages later people are still talking DOH. There are many pilots on the AC list that are not DOH.
It will NEVER be DOH.
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Sun May 26, 2019 11:24 am

Fanblade wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:24 am

The problem with a merger is no one wants to lose anything. Everyone starts coming up with their own rationalizations, justifications, and excuses as to why they think they deserve special treatment. Everyone believes in their position but the arbitrator will only follow one. Their is risk it won’t be yours. There is risk an arbitration can go horribly wrong.
You're absolutely right, and we're seeing it already.
DanWEC wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am
You two guys that saying the potentially incoming TS pilots aren't worth crap have a very creative understanding of basic math.
4100 pilots at AC, 600 at TS, with DOH spread all through the roster.
Two point you guys need to see:
1) With a DOH blend, it's a good assumption there would be just as many ex-TS guys under you as above.
And
2)Since the pool of pilots and planes would be EXPANDING based on the merger there would be ZERO DISPLACEMENT. The ratios remain the same. Your career will stay the same.

Not trying to sound rude.

Cheers.
It's been mentioned AC doesn't do DOH or have a DOH list. I'm sure it's not hard to figure out though. That said, by my quick crude math % based works similar to DOH. In any case, that's for the union guys to figure out and propose to the groups.
altiplano wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:15 am
I disagree the aircraft will be expanding the fleet. Older TS 330s will be cut loose, 310s gone, 737s gone...

There will be more TS pilots than fins, AC would have sourced the 330/320s anyway, they have actively been...
Perhaps you can tell us what will happen to the 321's that are here and more to come that are replacing exactly the 310s and 37's? Are they going unmanned or returned? I'm guessing our 330s have more life than your 67s. Perhaps there'll be a reduction/swap there if you really want to believe.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade » Sun May 26, 2019 12:40 pm

TSAM wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:24 am

It's been mentioned AC doesn't do DOH or have a DOH list. I'm sure it's not hard to figure out though.
Solve the riddle.

Two AC pilots have the same DOH. However they are 200 numbers apart on the seniority list as a result of a previous arbitration. Being locked in by Arbitration this can not change.

A Transat pilot hired the day after the two AC pilots slots in where?

:smt040
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TSAM
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM » Sun May 26, 2019 1:34 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:40 pm
TSAM wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:24 am

It's been mentioned AC doesn't do DOH or have a DOH list. I'm sure it's not hard to figure out though.
Solve the riddle.

Two AC pilots have the same DOH. However they are 200 numbers apart on the seniority list as a result of a previous arbitration. Being locked in by Arbitration this can not change.

A Transat pilot hired the day after the two AC pilots slots in where?

:smt040
Guess I'll go ahead and retract that statement :lol: It is more complex than I had thought, I'll admit, but certainly not impossible for a reasonable solution. I also shouldn't speculate possible outcomes/solutions, as it's above my paygrade due to the many intricacies, especially on the AC side of things.
Thanks for the informative posts thus far Fanblade.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BTD » Sun May 26, 2019 4:48 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:15 am
I disagree the aircraft will be expanding the fleet. Older TS 330s will be cut loose, 310s gone, 737s gone...

There will be more TS pilots than fins, AC would have sourced the 330/320s anyway, they have actively been...
Not that it matters what I think, but I’m not sure about the older 330s and the 330-200s leaving. I certainly agree the 310s and 37s are gone, but ac likes the 330s and as you mention we have been sourcing more. Now we get 20 plus all the other aircraft plus the rest of the business for 520 million. That’s 2 or 3 787s.

Transat has marketshare. Marketshare AC wants. If we take that marketshare and then dump the fleet how do you maintain the capacity to hold onto it? Some can be absorbed into our capacity but 34-50 aircraft worth? (If you count the seasonal leases)

Maybe I’m not seeing it, but I don’t see too many 330s disappearing in the near term.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by lownslow » Sun May 26, 2019 5:49 pm

DanWEC wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am
4100 pilots at AC, 600 at TS
In theory BOTL would probably piss off the fewest people at only 600.

I’m not actually advocating that, I have friends at TS.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory » Sun May 26, 2019 5:54 pm

Air Canada is hiring close to 600 people a year at BOTL and many of them are just as experienced as the Transat pilots, or more.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Sun May 26, 2019 6:59 pm

Victory wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 5:54 pm
Air Canada is hiring close to 600 people a year at BOTL and many of them are just as experienced as the Transat pilots, or more.
Exactly.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Sun May 26, 2019 7:00 pm

I want to see at least one extra unrestricted bid come, or just change the whole shit bid system.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike » Sun May 26, 2019 7:01 pm

While we're at it, fix the reserve.

A couple more dollarydoos into the pension would be nice as well.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Puffpuffpass » Sun May 26, 2019 8:02 pm

TSAM wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:57 pm
I think some of the junior AC posters need to heed the words of the more experienced AC posters here.
laserstrike wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 4:35 pm

At the end of the day when it comes time to vote, I need to see the big picture. You don't have the big picture now, but you're already jumping to conclusions and making outlandish demands. If the fleet is growing by the same or more than the eqivelant pilots coming over then I can deal with it. But do we really think that's going to happen? The 737s will likely be gone, the older 310's, gone. The remaining 310's and 737 are scheduled to be retired over the next couple years, the 321's are to replace those. Those 321's... that AC will be getting. What does that leave us with, 20 330's and a dozen 320s? Are all the future orders going to see the line? Is AC going to sell them off to the higest bidder? Are the 7373 MAX's going to leave the fleet and these NEOs only replace what we already had? Etc. etc. Discuss that with CR
laserstrike wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:20 pm
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 2:20 pm
Above post is spot on, how would a Transat pilot be able to complain about being allowed to hold his same seat out of Senority, with a pay raise? Obviously they should have to join the bottom of the list at AC...they started working here after everyone else!!

I also don’t agree with these fences protecting certain groups. What kind of fence is going to protect the 3 yr guy here? I could care less about myself, no matter what happens here I won’t be affected. Seems like you do care

It will no doubt go to arbitration, unless ACPA and AC have a little something up their sleeves, which I’m starting to think they might. Our Rouge President left out of the blue this week past.
I'm hearing a lot of people agree with this sentiment. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I chose to leave a pretty cushy job at Jazz to go to AC. My decision was pretty hard to make given I was essentially layoff protected at Jazz, had a great schedule in the left seat and it would have only continued to get better. I decided to come based on retirement and fleet projections, plus the fact I was supposed to have 600 pilots BELOW me in a year and a half. Someone has the case of the "supposed ta's". What if this merger doesn't happen but a recession does? Are you going to cry that to Calin when the layoff letters get sent out? I chose to stay in the AC umbrella by doing my time at Jazz, and shouldn't be disadvantaged for my loyalty to the brand.We all know you decided to go to AC for more than that, and see below about taking risks. Additionally that "cushy" job at jazz is still there if you like. As for loyalty, it means nothing in Canadian aviation, hasn't for ages.

Now, if the majority of AT pilots slide in above me.. it will really effect potential upgrades, schedule and long term career prospects. A lot of pilots who've been around over 15 years has had their upgrades, pay, schedule, and career prospects changed at some point. You are no special case. Many of us at TS are affected by a merger too, we have a great thing here, may not be perfect, but we’re happy here Many of them chose to got to AT and there are a number who left the AC family (Express mostly) with no intention of working for AC. Why give them the biggest of all payoffs with seniority, pay increases and many more opportunities for widebody left seats than they would have ever seen at AT.

Let them keep their seats, and pay. But put them at the bottom. Give them YOS for pay and vacation for all I care. But when it comes to bidding rights, they should go where they belong. The bottom. Sure, we'll keep our seats (and planes)... not going to happen

I might sound like an asshole, yes you do but this is my life here... and yes it's theirs too. But that's the risk you take going to go work for a charter airline, you took the risk of joining the aviation industry. Additionally, Transat has been around for over 30 yrs with no sign of slowing or ending many of which haven't had that great of lifespan in Canada over the years.
ahramin wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 5:27 pm
So you think it's possible that adding aircraft and pilots could triple the upgrade time? Are you able to share how you calculated that? Are you assuming the new duty regs will be implemented or current duty regs?
Math (addition) seems hard to comprehend. I'm really beginning to think we're being trolled. Not being able to add the aircraft, positions created due to fatigue rules and to cover the positions from our mixed fleet flying, retirements and likely some early retirements, and likely we’ll be short staffed as mgmt will not want to spend the time and money to train someone for a short duration on Transats dime. Not to mention a reopen of their contract is very beneficial to AC, but yet, some don't see it.

It's really not hard to all work together, the last thing we all need is a toxic work environment. And it's not hard to wait for confirmation of a merger and approval from the competition bureau before spinning the death of your careers.

couple edits for clarity
Why would any junior pilot in their right mind heed any words of wisdom from one of us old guys? We are the greediest bunch of the lot, we are the ones who have this airline in the state that its in.....reading some of the post the younger generation have and how they discuss things in their own private forums is actually quite humbling....I strongly disagree and feel, the only way to get the union and all its members to fight an honest fight for the junior guy, is to affect the entire list....let the pilots 2600 and up start worrying about 400-600 guys/gals slotting ahead of them....see what happens then! If I were junior I would ask for protection against all the group or roll the dice and send it to an arbitration.....what have they to loose?? It sickens me how two pilots at AC can have totally different careers.....

I've been very fortunate however, I have other family members who have long careers left here and they have sacrificed so much already for their spots. It woud be a shame to see these new guys come over with their sense of entitlement(which they will) and out a negative spin on it all.

I ask again, how is it unfair, or unheard of, to let the AT pilots keep their current positions, hold same Senority amoungst their own, and receive a huge pay raise? The #1 guy is still flying his 330 with 600 pilots below him, and he now has a raise, better benefits, better perks, etc.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by fish4life » Sun May 26, 2019 9:26 pm

Because he will go from an awesome schedule to a shitty one, again it may be hard to see because it’s not the same goals in life but some people are ok making less money for a good schedule.
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