DOH merge.

Discuss topics related to Air Transat.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
FL320
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 »

laserstrike wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 4:28 pm Not everyone is joining AC in their 20's you know. Many many people in their 30's and 40's. All of which are now going to get fucked sideways.
Life is not fair and not only in aviation; you’d better realize it asap and live with it. Jazz is not AC, they’re just a subsidiary. You joined Jazz, not Air Canada... Accepting these shitty conditions instead of going to Transat, Westjet, Sunwing is your own decision - if you have to blame someone, blame yourself.
I’ve also spent my time flying around at Jazz, do you seriously believe that flying a RJ or Dash around is worth flying a wide body around the world? I’ve done both and there’s no comparison:as an employer perspective looking for competencies, I know what I would do...
I am 100% for a fair deal, I am willing to give up my Captain seat for a fair deal, but come on...going BOTL because a pilot from Jazz is unhappy is not serious. Again, what competencies do you bring to AC from your previous job at Jazz compared to Air Transat (and Sunwing and Westjet and Cathay and so on..) pilots? Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by FL320 on Sun May 26, 2019 7:09 am, edited 10 times in total.
Stu Pidasso
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Here we go with the revisionist history, Canadi>n was never bankrupt and we didn't get a 25% pay raise. Air Canada on the other hand did go bankrupt.

If I earn $15 / hour at McDonalds and work 20 hours a week, then start working 30 hours a week I earn more money - but it is not a pay raise.

Canadi>n Pilots out earned AC on every contract up until the last one prior to the merger. AC Pilots flew substantially more hours than Canadi>n. All in it was a slight pay raise but a far cry from 25%. Contract for Contract I would have taken the CAIL one hands down. Not to mention CAIL's smallest jet was a 737, verses a RJ.

No RP's ; No RJ's.

Now back Transat, if ACPA goes to an Arbitrator with a BOTL solution we will get eaten alive. You have to present a reasonable list and have solid arguments. "Windfall Gains" is something a reasonable Arbitrator understands. Taking the number one 330 Captain and giving them a 50% plus raise, while punishing the junior AC Pilots is outrageous.

For a newhire AC Pilot to think a Transat 330 Captain should go junior to them is equally outrageous. It is unfortunate for anyone who quit Transat to come to AC, but nothing new there. Plenty of history of Pilots quitting one Airline to join another and regretting it. It is the mindset of sh*tting on your fellow Professional Pilots that has this industry in such a mess.

We definitely want to do our best for all the AC Pilots, where the problem lies is within ACPA. The new MEC Chair is still sputttering about the last merger, 19 years ago, even though he personally made out like a bandit. We'll see who is appointed to a Merger Committee, their track record is somewhat suspect.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TSAM
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory »

I expect all current Rouge pilots will be brought back to mainline. Rouge will be a completely separate airline and be manned by Transat pilots and they will not be merged. The ACPA will agree to this because it means the end of the B-Scale and prevents the Transat pilots from messing up everyone's careers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4695
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1202
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Victory wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 8:19 am I expect all current Rouge pilots will be brought back to mainline. Rouge will be a completely separate airline and be manned by Transat pilots and they will not be merged. The ACPA will agree to this because it means the end of the B-Scale and prevents the Transat pilots from messing up everyone's careers.
Not going to happen. But just to play devils advocate.

- What do you think would happen when 768 pilots re enter the mainline list? Certainly it would solve AC’s pilot shortage.
- Now that another pilot group holds those jobs what happens to opportunities for ACPA pilots?
- Then what happens down the road when the Transat pilots are pissed with our behaviour and offer to do mainline work for less?

Do any of these things sound like they might mess up one career?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1202
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Stu Pidasso wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:40 am Here we go with the revisionist history, Canadi>n was never bankrupt and we didn't get a 25% pay raise. Air Canada on the other hand did go bankrupt.

If I earn $15 / hour at McDonalds and work 20 hours a week, then start working 30 hours a week I earn more money - but it is not a pay raise.

Canadi>n Pilots out earned AC on every contract up until the last one prior to the merger. AC Pilots flew substantially more hours than Canadi>n. All in it was a slight pay raise but a far cry from 25%. Contract for Contract I would have taken the CAIL one hands down. Not to mention CAIL's smallest jet was a 737, verses a RJ.

No RP's ; No RJ's.
Thanks for the observations Stu.

Take away for today’s situation.

1) AC pilots may gross more. Our hourly rate maybe more. But do we make more per hour at work? In the current case it might be the Transat pilots who make more per hour at work. This is why pay becomes irrelevant.

2) Notice Stu’s reference to No RP’s ; No RJ’s. He doesn’t mention the 8:1 ratio at the bottom of the CDN/AC merger however this was the justification for it. He still seems to believe that RP’s are less than 737 pilots and he is on the AC side of the fence. Do you think it’s possible that some Transat pilots might be thinking the same way? Since it is a precedence, what would you do if the situation was reversed.

The problem with a merger is no one wants to lose anything. Everyone starts coming up with their own rationalizations, justifications, and excuses as to why they think they deserve special treatment. Everyone believes in their position but the arbitrator will only follow one. Their is risk it won’t be yours. There is risk an arbitration can go horribly wrong.
---------- ADS -----------
 
FL320
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by FL320 »

altiplano wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hangry
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Hangry »

FL320 wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:45 am
altiplano wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
I hope the bulk of TS plots aren’t like you. You should absolutely make a stand and not come over.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4695
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

FL320 wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:45 am
altiplano wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 8:32 am
FL320 wrote:Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.
You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.
I’ll be honest that is an option. I have the EASA ATPL and the European passport, if i’m forced to AC and I don’t like the outcome I will move. It’ll be far better in Europe than AC anyway, I just have to convince my wife...not the easiest job for me :lol:
I'm the exact opposite... wife wants to move to France, but I don't want to commute... Maybe I can borrow your passport and license and you can have my seniority#...
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC »

You two guys that saying the potentially incoming TS pilots aren't worth crap have a very creative understanding of basic math.
4100 pilots at AC, 600 at TS, with DOH spread all through the roster.
Two point you guys need to see:
1) With a DOH blend, it's a good assumption there would be just as many ex-TS guys under you as above.
And
2)Since the pool of pilots and planes would be EXPANDING based on the merger there would be ZERO DISPLACEMENT. The ratios remain the same. Your career will stay the same.

Not trying to sound rude.

Cheers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4695
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

I disagree the aircraft will be expanding the fleet. Older TS 330s will be cut loose, 310s gone, 737s gone...

There will be more TS pilots than fins, AC would have sourced the 330/320s anyway, they have actively been...
---------- ADS -----------
 
atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by atphat »

I'm not sure how 8 pages later people are still talking DOH. There are many pilots on the AC list that are not DOH.
It will NEVER be DOH.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TSAM
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1202
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

TSAM wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 11:24 am
It's been mentioned AC doesn't do DOH or have a DOH list. I'm sure it's not hard to figure out though.
Solve the riddle.

Two AC pilots have the same DOH. However they are 200 numbers apart on the seniority list as a result of a previous arbitration. Being locked in by Arbitration this can not change.

A Transat pilot hired the day after the two AC pilots slots in where?

:smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
TSAM
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BTD
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1308
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:53 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by BTD »

altiplano wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 11:15 am I disagree the aircraft will be expanding the fleet. Older TS 330s will be cut loose, 310s gone, 737s gone...

There will be more TS pilots than fins, AC would have sourced the 330/320s anyway, they have actively been...
Not that it matters what I think, but I’m not sure about the older 330s and the 330-200s leaving. I certainly agree the 310s and 37s are gone, but ac likes the 330s and as you mention we have been sourcing more. Now we get 20 plus all the other aircraft plus the rest of the business for 520 million. That’s 2 or 3 787s.

Transat has marketshare. Marketshare AC wants. If we take that marketshare and then dump the fleet how do you maintain the capacity to hold onto it? Some can be absorbed into our capacity but 34-50 aircraft worth? (If you count the seasonal leases)

Maybe I’m not seeing it, but I don’t see too many 330s disappearing in the near term.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by lownslow »

DanWEC wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am 4100 pilots at AC, 600 at TS
In theory BOTL would probably piss off the fewest people at only 600.

I’m not actually advocating that, I have friends at TS.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory »

Air Canada is hiring close to 600 people a year at BOTL and many of them are just as experienced as the Transat pilots, or more.
---------- ADS -----------
 
laserstrike
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike »

Victory wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:54 pm Air Canada is hiring close to 600 people a year at BOTL and many of them are just as experienced as the Transat pilots, or more.
Exactly.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Transat”