DOH merge.

[Just another canuck]

…

[altiplano]

You're acting like AC would be acquiring the Transat brand yet receiving nothing for it. Which is way off. Maybe because you're mad, you're trying to convince yourself of this. Idk. But TS has been flying people around for 30 years and AC would potentially inherit their loyal customers. 20% market share is what they account for.

20%? No, more like 5% of market share and that data is 2 years old, new data would show even less I think.

They are getting something, but I don't think they are getting much anyway... a few assets they can sell, maybe block Onex, maybe spin off ACV in the future, some benefit removing a competitor, get some pilots to address the previous two flight ops VP's inaction on hiring, they can get leases on their own, didn't need Transat for more planes.

Plus they further divide a divided group again just as we come into negotiations and drag NA in pay levels and it's starting to boil over on the line... they probably project with more division, they will save the buying price right there come contract time.

Whatever they are getting it's a negative for AC pilots.

I'm not mad, just the way I see it.

[BTD]

You're acting like AC would be acquiring the Transat brand yet receiving nothing for it. Which is way off. Maybe because you're mad, you're trying to convince yourself of this. Idk. But TS has been flying people around for 30 years and AC would potentially inherit their loyal customers. 20% market share is what they account for.

20%? No, more like 5% of market share and that data is 2 years old, new data would show even less I think.

They are getting something, but I don't think they are getting much anyway... a few assets they can sell, maybe block Onex, maybe spin off ACV in the future, some benefit removing a competitor, get some pilots to address the previous two flight ops VP's inaction on hiring, they can get leases on their own, didn't need Transat for more planes.

Plus they further divide a divided group again just as we come into negotiations and drag NA in pay levels and it's starting to boil over on the line... they probably project with more division, they will save the buying price right there come contract time.

Whatever they are getting it's a negative for AC pilots.

I'm not mad, just the way I see it.

I think most of your points are valid. Although I may not be quite as cynical about it. I still believe this will probably be a negative for us AC pilots.

I think the 20% market share is based on the North Atlantic only. I believe that number is mostly accurate, but obviously doesn't account for the entire scope of AC's vs Transat's operation.

I am still not sure about dumping so much of Transat's fleet in the short term. Based on their quarterly results it looks like load factors are steady and perhaps up over the last number of reports. I don't see AC giving that market up so those passengers can go seek out other carriers, European etc.

We simply don't have the capacity right now to absorb all those passengers into our operation.

According to company filings, Air Transat takes up about 20 per cent of the market for flights between Canada and Europe, and about 22 per cent of travel between Canada and sun destinations such as Mexico, Jamaica, the Caribbean and Central America.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.5138180

[Victory]

All the Transat pilots in the thread that stated they do not want to join AC I urge you to write to your MP's and urge them that this deal would be bad for Canadian consumers. I know I will be. Some ideas for talking points:

-In his 2016 report on transportation in Canada, David Emerson, a former federal cabinet minister, said Canadians were paying "relatively high airfares, in part due to the lack of competition on many routes."

-Ross Aimer, a pilot and chief executive officer of Aero Consulting Experts, predicted Air Canada's ticket prices to some destinations could increase by 10 to 15 per cent if the merger proceeds.

-Someone needs to defend the interests of Canadian consumers. That someone is the Competition Bureau and it must be ready to conduct a comprehensive and rigorous review of whatever proposal Air Canada and Air Transat eventually make.

[laserstrike]

All the Transat pilots in the thread that stated they do not want to join AC I urge you to write to your MP's and urge them that this deal would be bad for Canadian consumers. I know I will be. Some ideas for talking points:

-In his 2016 report on transportation in Canada, David Emerson, a former federal cabinet minister, said Canadians were paying "relatively high airfares, in part due to the lack of competition on many routes."

-Ross Aimer, a pilot and chief executive officer of Aero Consulting Experts, predicted Air Canada's ticket prices to some destinations could increase by 10 to 15 per cent if the merger proceeds.

-Someone needs to defend the interests of Canadian consumers. That someone is the Competition Bureau and it must be ready to conduct a comprehensive and rigorous review of whatever proposal Air Canada and Air Transat eventually make.

If that happens what's stopping AC and AT having some sweetheart backroom deal where AT shuts the company down and sells off assets to AC? Planes and slots?

That's really all they want anyways.

[photofly]

If that happens what's stopping AC and AT having some sweetheart backroom deal where AT shuts the company down and sells off assets to AC? Planes and slots?

The AT shareholders.

[Fanblade]

If that happens what's stopping AC and AT having some sweetheart backroom deal where AT shuts the company down and sells off assets to AC? Planes and slots?

The AT shareholders.

Labor laws.

['97 Tercel]

It’s getting nasty already lol. I called it.

My guess, it the TS guys will be limited to rouge. AC pilots will be able to do mainline or rouge on a LOA.

Actually, all things considered, this thread has been quite civil and intelligent.

There are much nastier threads on this site over more ridiculously asinine topics than this//

[tintin42]

I just have a question for AC pilots. Just for fun let’s pretend that twe had a open market with the US like the EU have and American airlines bought AC. They have more than 4 times the amount of pilots that AC have, more planes and better pay. My question is what do you think would be a fair way to merge the two list? AC pilots going

BOTL
Since they are being bought and will get a pay raise, AC pilot should go BOTL otherwise it’s going to screw up the progression of AA pilots.

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

Ratio
AC should keep their % of seniority because you don’t want your pilot at 5% of the seniority list drop to 15-20% of the list. That would be the way to do it so no one is more junior or more senior than the where before.

or something else?

I know that because of the rules it wouldn’t be possible and since it’s another country it would cause some differences, but I would like you to pretend like another airline munch bigger than yours would buy AC. What would you consider fair?

[laserstrike]

I just have a question for AC pilots. Just for fun let’s pretend that twe had a open market with the US like the EU have and American airlines bought AC. They have more than 4 times the amount of pilots that AC have, more planes and better pay. My question is what do you think would be a fair way to merge the two list? AC pilots going

BOTL
Since they are being bought and will get a pay raise, AC pilot should go BOTL otherwise it’s going to screw up the progression of AA pilots.

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

Ratio
AC should keep their % of seniority because you don’t want your pilot at 5% of the seniority list drop to 15-20% of the list. That would be the way to do it so no one is more junior or more senior than the where before.

or something else?

I know that because of the rules it wouldn’t be possible and since it’s another country it would cause some differences, but I would like you to pretend like another airline munch bigger than yours would buy AC. What would you consider fair?

Well, American Airlines is a national scheduled carrier.

Air Transat is not.

Should I spell it out?

[Just another canuck]

…

[Fanblade]

I just have a question for AC pilots. Just for fun let’s pretend that twe had a open market with the US like the EU have and American airlines bought AC. They have more than 4 times the amount of pilots that AC have, more planes and better pay. My question is what do you think would be a fair way to merge the two list? AC pilots going

BOTL
Since they are being bought and will get a pay raise, AC pilot should go BOTL otherwise it’s going to screw up the progression of AA pilots.

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

Ratio
AC should keep their % of seniority because you don’t want your pilot at 5% of the seniority list drop to 15-20% of the list. That would be the way to do it so no one is more junior or more senior than the where before.

or something else?

I know that because of the rules it wouldn’t be possible and since it’s another country it would cause some differences, but I would like you to pretend like another airline munch bigger than yours would buy AC. What would you consider fair?

Well, American Airlines is a national scheduled carrier.

Air Transat is not.

Should I spell it out?

Laserstrike,

You blew off his question with a remark that Transat pilots are not our equals, or not our peers. That is not true nor will it fly with an arbitrator. Not even a chance. All the arbitrator will know is we both take funny looking winged things from A to B. Trying to assert superiority over another person who flys funny looking winged things is likely to actually backfire.

I think the question is a good one. Maybe use United since we are so tied together already.

How do we merge?

What would you consider fair?

[HavaJava]

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

As an mid-seniority AC pilot, I like this option best. As you pointed out, even though we don’t have a DOH list, we could easily make an artificial one. This option allows a fair and equal distribution of AT pilots without massive windfall gains (like the #1 AT pilot going to top spot on the 777.)

A straight ratio would be extremely detrimental to the majority of AC pilots and provide massive windfall gains to many AT pilots. Personally I would drop almost 150 numbers between a DOH and a ratio merge.

[HavaJava]

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

As a mid-seniority AC pilot, I like this option best. As you pointed out, even though we don’t have a DOH list, we could easily make an artificial one. This option allows a fair and equal distribution of AT pilots without massive windfall gains (like the #1 AT pilot going to top spot on the 777.)

A straight ratio would be extremely detrimental to the majority of AC pilots and provide massive windfall gains to many AT pilots. Personally I would drop almost 150 numbers between a DOH and a ratio merge.

[BenniFlyer]

I would personally be happy with DOH at 50% (10 turns to 5 years, 4 to 2 years). Yes, you could argue that AC and United or AA are national carriers and we should this come over straight DOH or ratio, but their salary, benefits and opportunities are far superior. This would be enough to make me happy, especially if AC was at a point of being bought out and not surviving on its own.

You could also argue that in this scenario of a “free market” AC would have had to raise their pay to compete with these companies...so maybe it wouldn’t be going to better conditions as is he case with AT to AC.

I don’t believe in BOTL, but an integration with even weighting for your DOH or seniority would really disappoint me...I’m prepared to be disappointed at this point. I hope I’m wrong in that regard.

And I don’t mean to disrespect an AT pilots and their professionalism/experience.

[yycflyguy]

I just have a question for AC pilots. Just for fun let’s pretend that twe had a open market with the US like the EU have and American airlines bought AC. They have more than 4 times the amount of pilots that AC have, more planes and better pay. My question is what do you think would be a fair way to merge the two list? AC pilots going

BOTL
Since they are being bought and will get a pay raise, AC pilot should go BOTL otherwise it’s going to screw up the progression of AA pilots.

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

Ratio
AC should keep their % of seniority because you don’t want your pilot at 5% of the seniority list drop to 15-20% of the list. That would be the way to do it so no one is more junior or more senior than the where before.

or something else?

I know that because of the rules it wouldn’t be possible and since it’s another country it would cause some differences, but I would like you to pretend like another airline munch bigger than yours would buy AC. What would you consider fair?

That's a good hypothetic but for it to be more accurate you'd have to point out that AC as a scheduled airline was failing and that Air Canada Vacations was propping up the rest of the company. Then how would the lists be integrated? It's been pointed out that it doesn't matter what the pilots want or think is fair. It'll 99% end up in front of an Arbitrator that will use precedence and will be swayed by legal opinion of what is "fair". Meaning NOBODY will be happy.

[rudder]

Dovetail. Ratio starting from an AC number that is not #1 (think around 650 which is approximately the number of top pay WB CA positions at current AC).

Ratio formula may not be evenly dispersed through the remainder of the list either. Factors for consideration are current pay and tenure.

Won’t be pretty. Some feelings will be hurt. It isn’t the first time. May not even be the last time.

Bigger issue for all concerned is resulting number of A scale pilot jobs, B scale pilot jobs (Rouge), and year 1-4 non CA pay.

[altiplano]

I'd go to American at the bottom of the list today if they hired me, so I guess anything better I could get on a merger would be alright... YOS credit and a bit of recognition? Perfect... I'm getting a big raise and more opportunity from day 1.

Or I'd take something similar to the recent American/US Airways/America West arbitration (2016).

Weightings given to:
-heavy retirement numbers approaching and advanced age & seniority at US Airways
-Current seat, equipment type, and career expectations prior to merger
-improved future opportunities for the America West group
-higher pay levels/status at primarily at American, somewhat at US airways
-BOTL for bottom US Airways pilots hired after 2005
-"fences" including set ratio of widebody seats guaranteed to AA pilots, base exclusions/limitations

Arbitrator:
"Over time," the panel noted, "former America West pilots will have the opportunity to fill the jobs vacated by retiring east pilots."

US Airways pilots:
“I don’t think we won, but we got something that was fair,” said one.

Another said “A bunch of {legacy American} people hired after me are senior to me now, but I’m not going to complain.”


And why would he complain? He got a big raise, a contract improvement, and a bowl full of future opportunity that never existed before.

The views presented in this forum are so simplistic, DOH or Ratio or... no... it's not either or...

Fact is it is a complex calculation of multiple factors that will result in a fair deal.

[BenniFlyer]

Thank you altiplano. +1

Top position at each company is different, and therefore career progression at each company is different all the way down the list. If I came from AT and a bunch of AC pilots who were hired after me were ahead of me, I don’t think I could be justifiably upset. Yes, if I was all the way at the bottom I would be upset.

That to me is a give and take scenario that I hope we can find.

[tintin42]

Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.

We don't feel like numbers, I can call crewsked, my chief pilot even our VP and just say my name and they know exactly who I am. All the managers, SOCC employees, HR, etc are bilingual. The people are amazing and we know who we fly with. We like to hang out and almost 90% of my layover I go eat with the other pilot and often a bunch of FAs. Most of our layover are longer than 20h and are at nice touristic destinations. We have options to split one schedule between two pilot to only fly half the time or the popular mini blocks with max 65h and 16 days off. Minimum 80h guaranteed per month and credit for ground school and sim. No split duty. We have a minimum of 1 hours of credit per 4h away from base. Better perdiems. I could go on, but the point is that there is a lot of important stuff other than the top salary.

I know Air Canada have a very good CA, I'm just saying that we have a good one also. I understand your fear of losing what you have but I think most pilots at Transat feel the same way even if we don't talk about seniority.

As for some of you thinking that the airline was falling apart, we are in restructuration so the last few quarterly reports are negative but someone approach us to buy. Transat AT then went public that they negotiated with potential buyers. We're not selling because we are about to be bankrupt far from it. And if AC is looking to buy us, I guess it's because Transat adds value to them.