AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

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TFTMB heavy
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:19 pm AC is 255 aircraft and growing since last report (Q3 statement), 4300 pilots, 16 and change per A/C including significant long haul and ultra long haul ops.4 man & 3 man crews.

Transat is 37 aircraft and decreasing since last report (Q4 statement) 700 pilots, almost 19 per A/C primarily 2 crew ops. That include 6 310s and 5 737s, you know they are gone if they aren't already, it also includes some limited shelf life 330s, particularly the 200s which won't last. So the ratio is even worse.
Latest TS bid will show 644 active pilots, not 700. Right now there are 40 tails with flights scheduled in January and a couple of spares, not the ratio you painted. We run the five 737s with 40 active pilots and have a bunch of 321s on dry lease for the winter.

Every tail on the AC bid is 10 Captain positions, so 20 pilots per tail. Surely some extra FOs and RPs required for ULH but if TS had those kind of flights we would also. Being a smaller operation we have a lot of deadheads to chase planes and are crewed for the peak months so there are a few extra crews kicking around some months. Our vacation/days off ratio in our CA is very good, 7% of vacation days per month, almost all of us get a week in the Sumer.

Again, 15% of your roster coming in isn't going to halt career expectations.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

depends what base you want....
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twa22
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by twa22 »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:42 pm
twa22 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:54 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:47 pm
In the end you will bring more pilots than jobs. Many of those pilots will take seniority numbers well up the Air Canada list.
What??? More pilots then jobs? Last I heard there are over 800 pilot vacancies at Air Canada and this is coming from a buddy of mine who is one of your Air Canada colleagues.

What am I missing here? Surely this Air Transat merger will not make such a drastic impact that there will be more pilots then jobs, I find that so hard to believe given everything i've been hearing and reading (*cough shortage cough*)

You also didn't take into consideration the 15 A321's Air Transat has on order

Seriously, i'd like to get a clear cut explanation outlining how Transat merging with AC will cause there to be too many pilots.

*By the way, I take a neutral stance on whether the merger should happen or not*
Yeah, AC has vacancies on its 12 month outlook and it's racing to fill them after an era of hiring and training mismanagement, new growth, record retirements, and new regulations. Those vacancies are Air Canada jobs at the bottom of the list.

Regarding fewer jobs, as an example, AC and TS compete on routes where there are possibly 10 flights/week combined, they will now go to, for example, daily. Loss of 3 flights. That example is straight out of Calin Rovinescu's mouth last week at the "Pilot Roadshow" of how he sees synergies. There are of course many other variances of this on virtually every route AC TS currently compete on, but that's the gyst.

Regarding the 321neos, some are included in the number I mention from the Q4 report, but the ones on the way are replacement aircraft in a shrinking fleet that are included in my number. No growth there. Pilot ratio remains.

So net result after efficiencies are realized is less combined flying, plus more efficiency equals degradation in effective seniority for current AC pilots, even if on a pure ratio seniority merge.

Regarding your or my stance on whether the merge should happen? It doesn't matter what we think, it is what it is and it's out of our hands.

I'm only considering how this will all play out and some of you seem to have a hard time grasping it, or are possibly just being devils advocate, but whatever it is you aren't seeing it for what it is.
Alright, well then I hope that's not the case and you're wrong, for the sake of your job, your colleagues job and Transat pilots job. Best of luck to both groups of pilots if/when this merger happens.
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Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

FL-280 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:16 am + 1 Altiplano.... that is exactly how I feel. TS pilots just don't bring as much as they think to the table. Period.

The way a pilot group "feels" about what another group "brings to the table" strikes me as completely irrelevant. Its the same bull$hit that soured many a flightdeck during the AC/CDN merger in 2000 for the better part of a decade. It was a petty waste of energy that should have been directed at acquiring a better contract for both groups.

The merger will occur, and the respective pilot groups will live with the result while having zero say on fleet status. Holding the merged groups pilots accountable in some "fantasy" form is childish and wrong.

It also strikes me as a fabulous way to distract the pilot group from the larger picture. Don't think for a second that CR and his team won't notice and take advantage.

DP.
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Ironman2909
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Ironman2909 »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:10 am
Again, 15% of your roster coming in isn't going to halt career expectations.
Unfortunately, yes it will, since most of these guys will want YUL as a base. Maybe a small number will want to stay in YYZ. As of now, YVR is mostly protected from the integration. There is so many pilots (roughly 2800ish) in YYZ that you're statement is true, but only for that base.

On the last bid, YUL was looking to have 800ish pilots (on AC side). With more than 600 pilots coming from TS, you're looking at an increase of more than 80% in YUL base only..........I would be extremely surprise that this will happen... I don't think there is or will be enough flying out of YUL to integrate that many pilots on one go......who knows......

This is going to be an interesting acquisition.....we don't even know yet how the upper AC management wants to run the show.....pretty sure CR as something up his sleeve....
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Duke Point wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:58 am
FL-280 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:16 am + 1 Altiplano.... that is exactly how I feel. TS pilots just don't bring as much as they think to the table. Period.

The way a pilot group "feels" about what another group "brings to the table" strikes me as completely irrelevant. Its the same bull$hit that soured many a flightdeck during the AC/CDN merger in 2000 for the better part of a decade. It was a petty waste of energy that should have been directed at acquiring a better contract for both groups.

The merger will occur, and the respective pilot groups will live with the result while having zero say on fleet status. Holding the merged groups pilots accountable in some "fantasy" form is childish and wrong.

It also strikes me as a fabulous way to distract the pilot group from the larger picture. Don't think for a second that CR and his team won't notice and take advantage.

DP.
Don't disagree. My only point was basically don't try to tell me ALPA's merger policy will bring gains, or TS Pilots integrating bring gains to AC Pilots when in fact it's the other way around. Only gains here are for the executives and the Transat Pilots. It is what it is, I'll work well with everyone, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Let's go get a killer contract.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

Altiplano thank you for the explanation of your point of view. I can see that if the new entity ends up smaller than the sum of the original entities, and a downturn stops or reverses growth, this could have a net negative effect for many current AC pilots. I think it's unlikely since both mainline and TS are expanding, but I understand the concern. I also completely agree with you that for the majority of TS pilots, this will likely be a massive win compared with what the AC pilots stand to gain.

ACPA has a CBA which limits the size of Rouge. If AC wants to change that, making it very expensive for them could recover any potential losses from the above scenario. If the scenario doesn't happen, then it's a win. The ALPA CBA with TS specifies that after a merger the OAL pilots go to the bottom of the list. I believe the ACPA CBA specifies the same. Obviously that isn't possible, so again we make them pay for it. If our efforts consist of shrugging our shoulders at the inevitable and spitting on each other, it's going to be a very poor outcome in every possible way. If on the other hand it's AC that is forced to bear the burden of the downsides, I don't think theres much left to be unhappy about.

All I can suggest is that the new group first puts aside all differences in order to negotiate from the best possible position. This is what will have the largest effect on any possible gains or losses. Once the terms and conditions are negotiated, then we can fight over where everyone fits into the new CBA. For the sake of our profession I hope this will be done in an adult manner which doesn't end up with everyone looking at Air Canada pilots like we're a bunch of retarded children, but personally I don't care. I do care very much about a mature, informed, determined, and unified group negotiating a new CBA with AC management in such a competent manner that they don't know what hit them.
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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

Don't disagree. My only point was basically don't try to tell me ALPA's merger policy will bring gains, or TS Pilots integrating bring gains to AC Pilots when in fact it's the other way around. Only gains here are for the executives and the Transat Pilots. It is what it is, I'll work well with everyone, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Let's go get a killer contract.
You’re so narrow minded it’s unbelievable; so yes you’re right: it’s everyone’s else fault and only your executives (for whom you are so proud to work as a slave) and TS pilots (who didn’t ask your boss anything) who will benefit. We understand as you mentioned ad nauseam that you are unhappy; frankly nobody cares about your feelings; life is not fair and as you say it is what it is. Now you can move on and sleep well and enjoy life while your working equipment is still grounded.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

ahramin wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:50 am Altiplano thank you for the explanation of your point of view. I can see that if the new entity ends up smaller than the sum of the original entities, and a downturn stops or reverses growth, this could have a net negative effect for many current AC pilots. I think it's unlikely since both mainline and TS are expanding, but I understand the concern. I also completely agree with you that for the majority of TS pilots, this will likely be a massive win compared with what the AC pilots stand to gain.

ACPA has a CBA which limits the size of Rouge. If AC wants to change that, making it very expensive for them could recover any potential losses from the above scenario. If the scenario doesn't happen, then it's a win. The ALPA CBA with TS specifies that after a merger the OAL pilots go to the bottom of the list. I believe the ACPA CBA specifies the same. Obviously that isn't possible, so again we make them pay for it. If our efforts consist of shrugging our shoulders at the inevitable and spitting on each other, it's going to be a very poor outcome in every possible way. If on the other hand it's AC that is forced to bear the burden of the downsides, I don't think theres much left to be unhappy about.

All I can suggest is that the new group first puts aside all differences in order to negotiate from the best possible position. This is what will have the largest effect on any possible gains or losses. Once the terms and conditions are negotiated, then we can fight over where everyone fits into the new CBA. For the sake of our profession I hope this will be done in an adult manner which doesn't end up with everyone looking at Air Canada pilots like we're a bunch of retarded children, but personally I don't care. I do care very much about a mature, informed, determined, and unified group negotiating a new CBA with AC management in such a competent manner that they don't know what hit them.
Thanks for seeing what I'm trying to say. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Definitely no spitting or fighting, for better or worse here we have it, let's focus on extracting gains against the corporation.
FL320 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:23 am
Don't disagree. My only point was basically don't try to tell me ALPA's merger policy will bring gains, or TS Pilots integrating bring gains to AC Pilots when in fact it's the other way around. Only gains here are for the executives and the Transat Pilots. It is what it is, I'll work well with everyone, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Let's go get a killer contract.
You’re so narrow minded it’s unbelievable; so yes you’re right: it’s everyone’s else fault and only your executives (for whom you are so proud to work as a slave) and TS pilots (who didn’t ask your boss anything) who will benefit. We understand as you mentioned ad nauseam that you are unhappy; frankly nobody cares about your feelings; life is not fair and as you say it is what it is. Now you can move on and sleep well and enjoy life while your working equipment is still grounded.

You are a piece of work. Narrow minded? Hardly. Even if it were true, it's better than being stupid like you obviously are given your lack of comprehension on what I wrote. Time to move on...
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

Ironman2909 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:14 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:10 am
Again, 15% of your roster coming in isn't going to halt career expectations.
Unfortunately, yes it will, since most of these guys will want YUL as a base. Maybe a small number will want to stay in YYZ. As of now, YVR is mostly protected from the integration. There is so many pilots (roughly 2800ish) in YYZ that you're statement is true, but only for that base.

On the last bid, YUL was looking to have 800ish pilots (on AC side). With more than 600 pilots coming from TS, you're looking at an increase of more than 80% in YUL base only..........I would be extremely surprise that this will happen... I don't think there is or will be enough flying out of YUL to integrate that many pilots on one go......who knows......

This is going to be an interesting acquisition.....we don't even know yet how the upper AC management wants to run the show.....pretty sure CR as something up his sleeve....
We have roughly 50% of the pilots based in YUL. Being bought out by AC does not allow a pilot to change their base to YUL. That being said, bases are protected in our CBA and would be shocked if pilots are forced out of YUL after the merger.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Victory »

Lol get ready to be shocked if you think AC is going to add 300 positions in YUL just for you.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

AC won't want to do paid moves so they will probably expand it initially to accommodate people currently awarded the base, and then let the total positions sink with attrition each bid.

Good luck for any new hires or existing Red/Blue wanting to get the base though... might end up as a closed base for some time.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

Victory wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:33 pm Lol get ready to be shocked if you think AC is going to add 300 positions in YUL just for you.
You think that all of our YUL flying is going away? AC has been expanding in YUL, the Express flights will only feed more people onto TS flights. My guess is that the YYZ base is the one that will see the less growth.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 160tonoaha »

I can’t help but to find it comical FL280 thinks TS pilots don’t bring as much to the table as they think they do.

What, as opposed to the pimple face that started flying in Seneca in 2015 on his new hire bio?

You’re getting a large demographic of experience that will just add to the integrity of our 2800 and lower seniority numbers to hopefully prevent another San Fran, or Halifax, or Rouge descending into a GPWS warning. To top it off, these guys can probably bring a different approach to culture in the work place.

But I’m sure the likes of FL280 prefers the 22 year old noob so he can tell him that flaps 1 at green dot descends the plane down better than speed brakes at 250 knots :lol

Lots of mixed opinions on this merger. Rudder, duke, and TFTMB put it best. The best outcome is to place the downside on the company and use these highly leveraged times to negotiate a great contract. All those issues altiplano speaks of disappear if your contract wasn’t so heavily dependent on the top 10-15% of the seniority list.

And when alti says things like ts pilots will enjoy a better lifestyle at AC, I highly doubt it. Those guys work an average of 100-120 days per year and maybe, just maybe crack 450 hours per year. And a lot of those work days involve 48-72 hours in amazing destinations. Hardly work. If you were to look at how they’re compensated per day or even per annum hour, they are on par, if not make more than AC. Of course, since they don’t work as hard as AC pilots, their T4 isnt as large, and the only thing that you look at as an AC Pilot is the T4 and I agree, it should be higher at TS. But it’s important to consider how much less TS pilots work for a 240k per year job after 10 years in the left seat.

What’s a 60 year old 777 captain flying per year at AC to make his retirement worthwhile? 700-800+ hours ? Makes sense why he makes 280-300k per year. It’s relative.

You speak of pension? 170% at AC, 140% at TS. Again, relative compared to the amount of work.

Hopefully we can negotiate something really good together, and open up the era of less narrow minded idiots thinking 2.5x draft is a great way to spend a career. Fuckk we are stupid.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

160tonoaha wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:18 am I can’t help but to find it comical FL280 thinks TS pilots don’t bring as much to the table as they think they do.

What, as opposed to the pimple face that started flying in Seneca in 2015 on his new hire bio?

You’re getting a large demographic of experience that will just add to the integrity of our 2800 and lower seniority numbers to hopefully prevent another San Fran, or Halifax, or Rouge descending into a GPWS warning. To top it off, these guys can probably bring a different approach to culture in the work place.

But I’m sure the likes of FL280 prefers the 22 year old noob so he can tell him that flaps 1 at green dot descends the plane down better than speed brakes at 250 knots :lol

Lots of mixed opinions on this merger. Rudder, duke, and TFTMB put it best. The best outcome is to place the downside on the company and use these highly leveraged times to negotiate a great contract. All those issues altiplano speaks of disappear if your contract wasn’t so heavily dependent on the top 10-15% of the seniority list.

And when alti says things like ts pilots will enjoy a better lifestyle at AC, I highly doubt it. Those guys work an average of 100-120 days per year and maybe, just maybe crack 450 hours per year. And a lot of those work days involve 48-72 hours in amazing destinations. Hardly work. If you were to look at how they’re compensated per day or even per annum hour, they are on par, if not make more than AC. Of course, since they don’t work as hard as AC pilots, their T4 isnt as large, and the only thing that you look at as an AC Pilot is the T4 and I agree, it should be higher at TS. But it’s important to consider how much less TS pilots work for a 240k per year job after 10 years in the left seat.

What’s a 60 year old 777 captain flying per year at AC to make his retirement worthwhile? 700-800+ hours ? Makes sense why he makes 280-300k per year. It’s relative.

You speak of pension? 170% at AC, 140% at TS. Again, relative compared to the amount of work.

Hopefully we can negotiate something really good together, and open up the era of less narrow minded idiots thinking 2.5x draft is a great way to spend a career. Fuckk we are stupid.
I can't believe you toss such broad dispersions at your colleagues, generalising them as "pimple faced" newbs, unbelievable. Speaks a lot to your character...

I think you couldn't be more wrong in how you are interpreting and characterising other people's statements. You are even making up your own meanings.

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but I believe AT Pilots are generally fine Pilots and professionals. There is no doubt, and I haven't said anything other than that.

So when I say Transat isn't bringing much to AC Pilots, I don't mean the Transat Pilots themselves as individuals or professionals, I mean in this deal I don't see a growth benefit to existing Air Canada Pilots relative the negative affect of seniority loss that is likely in the SLI.

Issues I brought up do more or less disappear for the top 10-15% of the seniority list. They will be felt hardest the further down the list you go. Mid and junior seniority fucked again... no surprise there.

I did not said TS Pilots will enjoy a better lifestyle. I said the SLI will have a negative affect on most AC Pilots' lifestyle/earnings/progression. AC Pilots lose because they lose seniority without a corresponding amount of growth to offset it.

Is this difficult to understand?

I agree absolutely that we are all in it together, and need to work together undivided, come the day this all gets rubber stamped for approval. But what additional leverage do you think we have as a combined group?
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Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

One could argue that the lack of utilization of both aircraft and pilots at Transat was unsustainable over the long term.

A 450 hour year and 72 hour layovers sound great if you don't mind the idea of your company going broke. Transat pilots will definitely work harder at AC, but the rewards are far more $$$ and a far greater likelihood of reaching retirement employed, and with a pension.

DP.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

160tonoaha wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:18 am I can’t help but to find it comical FL280 thinks TS pilots don’t bring as much to the table as they think they do.

What, as opposed to the pimple face that started flying in Seneca in 2015 on his new hire bio?

You’re getting a large demographic of experience that will just add to the integrity of our 2800 and lower seniority numbers to hopefully prevent another San Fran, or Halifax, or Rouge descending into a GPWS warning. To top it off, these guys can probably bring a different approach to culture in the work place.

But I’m sure the likes of FL280 prefers the 22 year old noob so he can tell him that flaps 1 at green dot descends the plane down better than speed brakes at 250 knots :lol

Lots of mixed opinions on this merger. Rudder, duke, and TFTMB put it best. The best outcome is to place the downside on the company and use these highly leveraged times to negotiate a great contract. All those issues altiplano speaks of disappear if your contract wasn’t so heavily dependent on the top 10-15% of the seniority list.

And when alti says things like ts pilots will enjoy a better lifestyle at AC, I highly doubt it. Those guys work an average of 100-120 days per year and maybe, just maybe crack 450 hours per year. And a lot of those work days involve 48-72 hours in amazing destinations. Hardly work. If you were to look at how they’re compensated per day or even per annum hour, they are on par, if not make more than AC. Of course, since they don’t work as hard as AC pilots, their T4 isnt as large, and the only thing that you look at as an AC Pilot is the T4 and I agree, it should be higher at TS. But it’s important to consider how much less TS pilots work for a 240k per year job after 10 years in the left seat.

What’s a 60 year old 777 captain flying per year at AC to make his retirement worthwhile? 700-800+ hours ? Makes sense why he makes 280-300k per year. It’s relative.

You speak of pension? 170% at AC, 140% at TS. Again, relative compared to the amount of work.

Hopefully we can negotiate something really good together, and open up the era of less narrow minded idiots thinking 2.5x draft is a great way to spend a career. Fuckk we are stupid.
I didn't speak of experience, just jobs. I didn't say Transat pilots suck, I said Transat sucks..... I don't go broke, loose my house and move in with you and eat your food do I?
I just feel old clapped out 330's on lease isn't brining much to the table. Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. **Ps yes I know our 320's are horrible before you bring it up
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

I didn't speak of experience, just jobs. I didn't say Transat pilots suck, I said Transat sucks..... I don't go broke, loose my house and move in with you and eat your food do I?
I just feel old clapped out 330's on lease isn't brining much to the table. Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. **Ps yes I know our 320's are horrible before you bring it up

Don't worry about the 320s because AC doesn't own most of them. AC owns about 45% of the fleet if you include MAX deliveries to come.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:22 pm
I didn't speak of experience, just jobs. I didn't say Transat pilots suck, I said Transat sucks..... I don't go broke, loose my house and move in with you and eat your food do I?
I just feel old clapped out 330's on lease isn't brining much to the table. Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. **Ps yes I know our 320's are horrible before you bring it up

Don't worry about the 320s because AC doesn't own most of them. AC owns about 45% of the fleet if you include MAX deliveries to come.
Yup you are right, it’s about 50/50 on lease and owning aircraft for ac.... still better that 5-6 310’s that are about to get chopped up
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 98 Corolla »

Stock at $12 dollars now. Transat would probably gone bankrupt this summer and could have been had for a song. What's the penalty for backing out of this deal?
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