Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

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ayseven
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ayseven »

Everyone hopes you are wrong about the pilot numbers; AC affects the entire industry, but right now, things are in a hold. It is impossible to predict the future. However, seniority seems to be the key to everything at your company, and I see nothing wrong with wondering how it is going to play out with a whole crap load of new people from a new company - somebody is going to be unhappy.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Absolutely, discussing the various eventualities is the point isn't it?

And I hope those numbers won't come, but they are possible if the fear doesn't turn a corner and demand returns. Maybe even a bankruptcy is inevitable if the economy doesn't reopen?

We'll have 600 on the street June 1st, I expect more on October 1st, and probably continued "work sharing" low pay until this is way in the rear view and the economy gets fixed.

How do you see integrating 700 pilots into this landscape? What do you think Transat Pilots are going to do at AC?
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flyinhigh
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by flyinhigh »

Now that is a discussion post.

Having your buddy start telling 700 pilots they have shitty career choices due to going to TS is not discussion and does nothing for the conversation, it does the opposite. I have avoided this 26 page thread as it has been beaten to death quite literally by three people and its the same thing over and over.

I don't know how the integration would work or where to begin. What we all (you and I) do know is that as of right now, maybe not in two months, but right now, we have to start thinking about it and come to a fair arrangement or it WILL be another Canadian deal. As for what we will do, well we will fly the TS aircraft for a long time until the deal that is made up forces both parties to start migrating, maybe thats six month but my bet is that it would be around 2-3 years (fences).
altiplano wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:27 am Absolutely, discussing the various eventualities is the point isn't it?

And I hope those numbers won't come, but they are possible if the fear doesn't turn a corner and demand returns. Maybe even a bankruptcy is inevitable if the economy doesn't reopen?

We'll have 600 on the street June 1st, I expect more on October 1st, and probably continued "work sharing" low pay until this is way in the rear view and the economy gets fixed.

How do you see integrating 700 pilots into this landscape? What do you think Transat Pilots are going to do at AC?
If you took that post as advocating and posting about how we need this you need to look in the mirror and think, Do I need a reality check cause man, that is so far from being that type of post its not even funny.
altiplano wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:40 pm
That's what you asked for...

"Show me a single post where I have advocated for this deal to go through."

It's pretty clear - it was just a few posts up! Did you forget you posted it?
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by JoeyBarton »

I don't see how all transat pilots get a job at AC when we have at least 162 pilots on furlough...As of now there is no chance of that...
Also if mainline shrinks, the rest shrinks...Transat ( if merged into ac) might not even be able to show up with all their planes and pilots because of the ratio or scope. It might actually be a terrible outcome for junior transat pilots having to wait for every mainline pilot to get a recall..
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

flyinhigh wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:53 am Now that is a discussion post.

Having your buddy start telling 700 pilots they have shitty career choices due to going to TS is not discussion and does nothing for the conversation, it does the opposite. I have avoided this 26 page thread as it has been beaten to death quite literally by three people and its the same thing over and over.

I don't know how the integration would work or where to begin. What we all (you and I) do know is that as of right now, maybe not in two months, but right now, we have to start thinking about it and come to a fair arrangement or it WILL be another Canadian deal. As for what we will do, well we will fly the TS aircraft for a long time until the deal that is made up forces both parties to start migrating, maybe thats six month but my bet is that it would be around 2-3 years (fences).
altiplano wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:27 am Absolutely, discussing the various eventualities is the point isn't it?

And I hope those numbers won't come, but they are possible if the fear doesn't turn a corner and demand returns. Maybe even a bankruptcy is inevitable if the economy doesn't reopen?

We'll have 600 on the street June 1st, I expect more on October 1st, and probably continued "work sharing" low pay until this is way in the rear view and the economy gets fixed.

How do you see integrating 700 pilots into this landscape? What do you think Transat Pilots are going to do at AC?
If you took that post as advocating and posting about how we need this you need to look in the mirror and think, Do I need a reality check cause man, that is so far from being that type of post its not even funny.
altiplano wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:40 pm
That's what you asked for...

"Show me a single post where I have advocated for this deal to go through."

It's pretty clear - it was just a few posts up! Did you forget you posted it?
First off. That's what I mean about comprehension challenge.

I'm not responsible for what someone else here posts. I have never said Transat pilots made poor career choices, I have never insulted Transat pilots, in fact I have said that I think Transat Pilots are generally fine people and before I went to work at AC, I would have happily gone to Transat.

It is the same thing over and over, Transat pilot takes the discussion personally, levels accusations, etc etc...

I have spent many posts defending simple discussion and a lot of insult from the Transat pilots in this thread which do nothing to advance the discussion. I have said, if you like the deal, good for you, I am happy for you, but I can't understand why some seem to take it personally that I don't like the deal? It is what it is, it's not my deal, but I can have an opinion on it. It's not an insult to you.

The reason I don't like the deal I've detailed on this thread. But basically it's not a growth deal, it's a consolidation deal, there will be fewer flights and fewer jobs and fewer airplanes at a combined entity than as separate airlines. I've heard it straight out of Rovinescu's mouth. What they see, for example, on routes that both airlines combined served 10x weekly, he now sees service as daily, and so on... less flying.

And that was pre:Corona times. Boom times! Now? WTF... Millions are out of work in the country. Tens of 1000s are out of work in this industry. 1000s in our profession. Your airline is shuttered! The economy is in a nose dive. 100s of routes that took years, decades even to build at this airline are just gone. They won't just spring back. And all those Pilots that were needed aren't anymore.

I'm not sure I see airlines within airlines being possible. At one point there was a thin case for "Rouge" but any justification now has vanished as cost reduction and economies of scale have to be realized. I suspect if Transat was once an option to replace Rouge, that will be done with and it will be one airline. Maybe it will be branded as a job saving measure with some politics and government money supporting the purchase.

So how do you see that integration happening? Combined there will be at a minimum over a thousand pilots out of work. Probably 2000... Where do you see yourself coming in?

Secondly. I stand corrected. But it seemed to say "best idea yet" "personally I'd love it that way"... soundef like advocating.
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tintin42
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by tintin42 »

altiplano wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:34 am Please post where I said I hope anyone loses their jobs.

Please post where I wished "bad" on anyone.

There seems a serious comprehension challenge on what I've stated here.

But in that train of thought, do you wish bad on anyone?
I don't have the time to go through 27 page of BS to find specific posts. I have 3 questions, Do you believe that Transat will survive without the merge? Do you want the merge to happen? (we all know the answer to that one) Finally, what's your seniority? You've said twice that we play martyr, but is one of the most complaining person here. It's easy to say anything behind anonymity but are you willing to say how long you've been at your company or you're going to deflect again?

Why would I wish anything bad, I'm not asking to bump anyone to layoff.


Philippe
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

tintin42 wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm FL-280 and altiplano, I’m curious, how long have you guys been at AC to be so concerned about your seniority? You seem to think Transat is doomed if it’s not for the merger but you don’t want it to happen. So you wish guys like Gilles, Jean-Luc with over 20 seniority, me with 12 and many other fellow pilots loose their job because if we merge and you keep similar relative seniority it would be terrible for your career. What is your seniority to be this affected? I really want to know who feel threatened by this?

I understand seniority is everything in a big company, but I wouldn’t wish anything bad on other Pilots for a few seniority numbers.
AC isnt a charity and the acpa seniority list even less of a charity. You CHOSE, to go to a leisure airline were stability was less, you will live with the consenquences of that decision if the deal doesnt go through.
If the deal does goes through, forget relative seniority. TS pilots will have to understand why a penalty should be applied to their seniority. The arbitrator will see it and will make a list reflective of most pilots career expectations. Scope is NOT up for negots.
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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

Scope is NOT up for negots.
Is it true that you have a contract reopener coming up; in October?
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Fanblade
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

Yes. There are openers for multiple topics during the 10 year deal. October is the next.

These openers are very restricted though. Things like pay and scope are excluded until 2025.

That is not to say that either can’t be opened by mutual agreement. Problem with that is the current situation. It is one thing to loosen scope a bit when jobs are aplenty. Loosening scope with people on the street? Not going to happen.

If history has taught us anything, ACPA if given the opportunity, will more likely try to repatriate scope and jobs for their members. This is obviously understandable but also the cause of a lot of friction over the years with feeders.

The idea of expanding what is viewed as B scale jobs within ACPA (Rouge or it’s replacement) while A scale jobs are lost? Not a chance. Well I shouldn’t say not a chance. But it would need to come with tremendous benefit for ACPA members. The problem is that in a shrinking environment like now, what ACPA grabs, gets taken from elsewhere.

If history is to be repeated we are currently at the top of the ACPA hate cycle. It will be interesting to see how the ALPA carriers in the states deal with scope and layoffs. Back in the mid 2000’s a US few carries negotiated mainline 175’s and flow down arrangements.

Any negotiations will see ACPA trying to capture as much work as possible for themselves and the company trying to exploit that. It is never usually good for anyone in the long run except the corporation.

So any mention of negotiations right now should be met with a sense of foreboding.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

FL320 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:26 am
Scope is NOT up for negots.
Is it true that you have a contract reopener coming up; in October?

September but scope is not one of the 5 points open for discussion
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

tintin42 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:10 am
altiplano wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:34 am Please post where I said I hope anyone loses their jobs.

Please post where I wished "bad" on anyone.

There seems a serious comprehension challenge on what I've stated here.

But in that train of thought, do you wish bad on anyone?
I don't have the time to go through 27 page of BS to find specific posts. I have 3 questions, Do you believe that Transat will survive without the merge? Do you want the merge to happen? (we all know the answer to that one) Finally, what's your seniority? You've said twice that we play martyr, but is one of the most complaining person here. It's easy to say anything behind anonymity but are you willing to say how long you've been at your company or you're going to deflect again?

Why would I wish anything bad, I'm not asking to bump anyone to layoff.
You don't have time, because you won't find it.

1. I don't know if Transat will survive. Depends on politics too. Maybe 60:40... Lots of airlines are going under/bankrupt.

2. I don't want the acquisition to happen, I didn't think it was a good deal, and particularly now even more so. I know that's difficult for you to accept. But I am entitled to a belief and I support it with reason.

3. And again you make it personal. This is irrelevant to the discussion and I'm not complaining, but some of you guys are constantly complaining, saying I'm attacking you or insulting you, and that is just not true. Again, pull a post... I'm simply articulating points of view based on what I see in the market and industry and from my direct experience. And they are clearly points of view that you don't like... I accept that... but you don't support your side of why it's a good deal and you have no response to my statements beyond making it personal. Oh, and FWIW I'm in middle 1/3 seniority-wise, but who cares? That has nothing to do with the discussion.

Talk about circles... c'mon! Don't you have your own point of view supported with fact and reason?
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aerodude
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by aerodude »

Looking at most airlines, loads are empty for the summer. The only reason to buy TRZ now is for brand. Even now 700 million may not be worth it.

I've always said the purchase of TRZ was great for lower CASM and to offload flying from mainline, looking at the news now, is that much money worth it, even over 10 years?

Maybe at a lower price but the CEO of AC also a fiduciary responsibility towards shareholders. Everyone is bleeding tons of cash.
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Kapitanov
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Kapitanov »

There is one simple truth to this acquisition of Transat by AC...There is NOT enough flying anymore for both work groups because of COVID-19.

We can speculate a lot about when full recovery is gonna happen, but to come back at the same level where 4500 AC pilots and 600 TS pilots are required will take years. I hope it could be only one year, but realistically, with people having WAY less money than before to travel, less business activity, international restrictions, more business travelers using ZOOM instead of travelling, etc., recovery will be slow and will easily take at least two years.

With that in mind, we shall not forget that in this transaction, there is an acquirer and an acquiree. The acquiree has technically more bargening power than the acquiree. Even that a few months ago when the transaction was announced, people were worried that AC would not take all of Transat employees especially on the administrative side. They ended-up saying they will take everyone, but with the current situation, this is not so sure anymore. On a business point of view, it would not make sense of taking ALL of Transat employees when your own employees are out of work. I think this scenario is unlikely for TS pilots, but I'm pretty sure if the acquisition happens, not all TS employees will have work at AC. Is it fair? Not really, but you don't keep employees just for fun, you keep them because every dollar you invest in them will bring back more than that one dollar.

Therefore, as for any union at AC, what's your first priority? Keep your CURRENT paying members employed. It's one thing to talk about seniority merger when the company is growing (personnaly I would have been ok for DOH minus two years or something along that), but unfortunately with what happened, every union at AC and employee at AC will think of themselves first. And that would mean not letting an inch of seniority to anyone, especially with a lot of current employees on layoff/inactive status.

I don't want Transat pilots or other employees to lose their job and I never did, but I care even more about our own pilots not losing their job. No way I would be ok with a 20+ year captain at Transat be the reason why a AC pilot has to work as a trucker for 2+ years to make ends meet. And the unfortunate truth, if the integration happens quickly, any TS pilot that gets a position at AC WILL cost a junior AC pilot their job... And the opposite is true as well.

So we can argue as much as we want, but the truth is at this point, it's every man for himself. I'm not saying I know exactly what is gonna happen and whatever happens I will live with it but let me honestly ask you a question... Given the choice, where would you like to be at this current moment? AC pilot or TS pilot? For me the answer is pretty easy.

Good luck to everyone. Let's hope this whole covid-19 thing dies as quick as it appeared so we can go back to fight the real things we should be talking about with this acquisition: better salary, schedule, quality of life for everyone... Instead of this annoying seniority problem.
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tintin42
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by tintin42 »

[/quote]I'm in middle 1/3 seniority-wise, but who cares? That has nothing to do with the discussion.

Talk about circles... c'mon! Don't you have your own point of view supported with fact and reason?
[/quote]

Thanks for giving an answer, even if it’s really vague at least I know your not that worried for a 2 year seniority. I don’t understand you last question or affirmation, it really look like an attack but you say you don’t do attacks.

FL-280 as the most vocal complaining about the deal on your seniority how long have you been at AC?

Finally, you guy’s say that CR is a smart CEO and he can get out of the deal if he wants. If he goes through with the deal would you agree with him that there might be a bigger picture we don’t see yet or you would think he was force a deal and he couldn’t get what he want?
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

I trust CR, IF he truly wants it and goes with it. I will agree that there is something I might not be seeing.
For my seniority. It really is none of your business but what the hell. I am a junior narrow body Captain in YYZ.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 98 Corolla »

Jean-Pierre wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:16 pm As the number of confirmed corona case hit 20000 people are starting to wake up about how corrupt and disorganized Quebec really is.
Looks like they are sending in the army to try to sort things out there.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

tintin42 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:05 am
Don't you have your own point of view supported with fact and reason?
I don’t understand you last question or affirmation, it really look like an attack but you say you don’t do attacks.
Seriously?

That's an attack? LOL.. must be lost in translation...

I'm asking you to tell me why you support this deal, if you do, and why? It's not an attack.

Can you understand and accept why I may not support it?

And I'll reiterate, it doesn't matter whether I support it or not... it's not my deal, and the players will do what they do... and we will see and perhaps be the collateral damage. And if the day comes and we are on a common list, I'll go to the wall blue or red. But it doesn't mean I have to like the deal and can't talk about it.

CR does a lot right for the corporation. Whether this was a defensive move on the perceived Onex expansion threat, share price, growth of his own accounts, politics, whatever... But it was never generally good for most AC employees, and absorbing Transat offered only downside to most AC Pilots.
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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:16 am I am a junior narrow body Captain in YYZ.
Wow upgrades are really quick at AC; less than a year ago in your case?
Re: What's the oldest age one should consider AC
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Unread post by FL-280 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:13 am

50!???!!? Damn man. I am just under thirty and thinking of not going, not for my age but for the seniority I will have. AC has hired massive amounts in the last three years, times are good, real good. Bad times follow good times.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

FL320 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:41 am
FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:16 am I am a junior narrow body Captain in YYZ.
Wow upgrades are really quick at AC; less than a year ago in your case?
Re: What's the oldest age one should consider AC
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Unread post by FL-280 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:13 am

50!???!!? Damn man. I am just under thirty and thinking of not going, not for my age but for the seniority I will have. AC has hired massive amounts in the last three years, times are good, real good. Bad times follow good times.
Around that yeah. Did it to get off the horrible flat pay we have
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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:44 am
FL320 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:41 am
FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:16 am I am a junior narrow body Captain in YYZ.
Wow upgrades are really quick at AC; less than a year ago in your case?
Re: What's the oldest age one should consider AC
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Unread post by FL-280 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:13 am

50!???!!? Damn man. I am just under thirty and thinking of not going, not for my age but for the seniority I will have. AC has hired massive amounts in the last three years, times are good, real good. Bad times follow good times.
Around that yeah. Did it to get off the horrible flat pay we have
You just went out of probation and you’re already flying left seat at AC, honestly....congrats!
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