AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[Fanblade]

Wait, lawsuit? AC can certainly walk away from the deal if Transat is facing a lawsuit.

Every airline in Canada is being sued.

[Daniel Cooper]

Is every airline being bought?

[727driver]

I have one question, whether AC carved out the flight ops or not, when ac takes over transat as a whole, aren’t they legally bound to all the collective agreements in place?

Yes. The above speculation is much in the same vain as Gilles. Not based on labor law. People keep trying to go down the rabbit hole. If AC buys Transat, AC is committed to every single agreement Transat has.

I understand what you’re saying that the airline can be shut down, but does that effectively cancel the collective agreements? And to boot, can AC really do that? I’m actually curious. Not looking for speculation.

Absolutely not. If AC buys Transat their responsibility to Transat employees is equal to their responsibility to AC employees.

Surely with all the retirements and fatigue regs, 650 or so pilots will be recalled within their 60 month recall period to an ACPA list if AC owns the tour operator that has an airline.

You have a time limit on recall?

There’s a very real probability here that the cheaper operation at transat remains, and the AC pilots stay on furlough as well. Completely opposite to what you suggested.

This neither is the likely outcome. If AC purchases Transat we will merge. End of story. Transat will very likely operate as a subsidiary and separate Brand. However the pilots will come from the ACPA seniority list, which you will be on.

Oh and let’s not forget the French thing, there usually is a pretty big noise if a quebecer loses their job.

Really? They are both Quebec companies. Quebec is where most of the overlap in jobs are.

If there is one phrase that I keep hearing repeated these days is “Everything is on the table!”. Stating absolutes is misleading in today’s Covid 19 world and most of what I’m saying is opinion however there are some indisputable facts intermingled. Everything and anything is possible right now as these unprecedented times will call for unprecedented measures. Current rules in place I believe are not capable to deal with an economic shutdown or industry collapse of apocalyptic proportion so things are changing on the fly.

Right now the Air Transat division of Group Transat is completely shutdown. A prolonged shutdown will result in a restart that will be logistically and financially challenging. Other than the 310s all other aspects of flt ops; fleet leases, crew and support staff are liabilities.(Hence 100% crew lay-off) It also bears mentioning that this recovery will be slow as well as unpredictable. Don’t kid yourself either for those that think leisure markets will rebound quickly. Leisure will most likely be even slower and more unpredictable since disposable income used for leisure travel will not be available for some time as people divert this income to try and recover from lost income levels and maxed out debt loads. Maxed out credit cards, lines of credit and deferred payment catch up payments will take priority and eat up much of household disposable income for the next year. This years summer season for leisure travel is probably a complete right off. When operations finally come back online there will still be excess capacity in the industry with labour and lift despite the collapses that will be inevitable and new duty regs. JME knows this and will do anything to make sure this deal goes through so he can check out and enjoy retirement(already tried to retire once in 2012) as fast a possible before the ship goes completely under. He does not want to restart this process and he does not want to go it alone so this deal is the only option. Transat is hemorrhaging cash badly and he/we all know it. Trust me he did not stay in this game for 30 years by being stupid or ignorant. I’m sure he is looking at all options to make sure his life’s work does not get totally flushed down the toilet. Transat will survive in some form. What form that will take will depends on what CR and JME decide it will be. Having both AC and TS flying around airplanes at 50-60 percent LF is not sustainable. Also every airline CEO also knows the headache we pilots can be when it comes to merged seniority lists. If CR sees this as an opportunity to eliminate multiple problems by one single act you can be assured he is seriously considering that. CR won’t hesitate to propose an agreement with JME to permanently shut down flt ops, return leases, cancel/sell positions on orders, sell/lease hangers, and terminate all staff. This all done under a guaranteed capacity purchase arrangement for Group Transat to have easy cost effective access to lift to get travellers to the hotels where Transat makes its money. ACs current network and future excess capacity when this is over can absorb the Transat passengers at no additional cost to AC of running another airline. This will also keep relations with ACPA on an even keel and score plenty of goodwill points with a much larger labour group. As for the ALPA Transat collective agreement, it’s protections and benefits will be worthless if the bargaining unit ceases to exist unfortunately. So much for recall rights. Ask GM Oshawa workers how that worked out. According to labour laws the purchasing enterprise has no obligation to former employees that are on terminated status. The best that can be hoped for is the Flt ops department does not permanently shut down and all staff terminated. Gilles theory sadly has legs. Remember JME is a tour operator not a an airline exec as he likes to remind us all. He never wanted an airline and he has no love for pilots either. To save the deal he would not hesitate to flush everyone he could to fill his pockets and tell everyone you can go apply at Air Canada when they start hiring again in 2 years.

As for argument that the government will step in to save Transat jobs. I don’t think so because it’s a zero sum game. Everyone is going to be over staffed and over fleeted when this is done so saving 600 pilot jobs at Transat means losing 600 pilot jobs at Air Canada both of which have workers in Ontario and Quebec. Do you think Legault is going to spend a nickel of Quebec tax payer funds to save a job in Ontario?

If anyone thinks this deal is going through the way it was originally negotiated you are being very naive.

Guard your loins accordingly!!!

[airboy1]

What's the point of acquiring TRZ if jobs will be lost. Government won't allow layoffs, specially if the goverment hands AC money to complete this deal.

[rudder]

The federal government, thus far, has offered no airline industry targeted aid. When it does, it will have to apply in equal terms (on a relative basis) to all of the airlines (AC/WJ/et al).

The federal government, thus far, has offered no vacation industry targeted aid. When it does, it will have to apply in equal terms (on a relative basis) to all of the tour companies (TRZ/SWG/et al).

The generic federal aid via wage subsidy was made available to all companies and may apply on a limited basis to some industry players. But it does not come close to covering either full employment labour expense nor does it address high fixed overhead expense such as aircraft leases.

Thus far, each carrier/vacation operator has acted on its own to reduce variable expense, mostly through eliminating fuel expense and labour expense due to reduced or shuttered operations.

Still waiting to see what YOW is prepared to do to protect the travel related sector as an important segment of the Canadian economy. Maybe it is a done deal. Or perhaps companies may need to be prepared to be disappointed.

[Localizer]

The government giving Air Canada money to complete the deal ... hmmm where have I seen that before? ... Canadian??


Ah .. Rudder .. Porter is apparently going to receive $135 million .. You might want to tell Jazz management to get drinking out of the same trough as Deluce ..

https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... government

[rudder]

Ah .. Rudder .. Porter is apparently going to receive $135 million .. You might want to tell Jazz management to get drinking out of the same trough as Deluce ..

“.....we secured a loan similar to other arrangements previously made with EDC,” an airlines spokesperson said.

I would not call EDC financing to be an omnibus program for the airline industry. I presume (absent details) that the loan terms are at a discounted rate. And security appears to be collateralized by the borrower, not the government.

There will need to be more than this, or it will become sink or swim.

[Localizer]

Complete guessing game, but I tend to think that a bail out is coming for airlines, and I think they deserve it. My personal opinion is that our government and governments around the world completely dropped the ball in regards to Covid-19. (surprise surprise) Everyone is suffering, but airlines in particular are taking this on the nose. Considering the Canadian (and other governments) have bailed out less deserving banks and corporations in the past .. it would boggle my mind how they'd possibly deny a bailout package to airlines.

Don't forget .. The Canadian government gave huge bailouts to the auto manufacturers and then forgave the "loans".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chrysl ... -1.4871648

Precedent set in my eyes.

[rudder]

Ah .. Rudder .. Porter is apparently going to receive $135 million .. You might want to tell Jazz management to get drinking out of the same trough as Deluce ..

Looks like CHR set up a $100MM unsecured credit line through EDC.

Once again, I see no signs of any omnibus industry federal government support.

https://chorusaviation.com/chorus-aviat ... -facility/

['97 Tercel]

Right now the Air Transat division of Group Transat is completely shutdown. A prolonged shutdown will result in a restart that will be logistically and financially challenging. Other than the 310s all other aspects of flt ops; fleet leases, crew and support staff are liabilities.(Hence 100% crew lay-off) It also bears mentioning that this recovery will be slow as well as unpredictable. Don’t kid yourself either for those that think leisure markets will rebound quickly. Leisure will most likely be even slower and more unpredictable since disposable income used for leisure travel will not be available for some time as people divert this income to try and recover from lost income levels and maxed out debt loads. Maxed out credit cards, lines of credit and deferred payment catch up payments will take priority and eat up much of household disposable income for the next year. This years summer season for leisure travel is probably a complete right off. When operations finally come back online there will still be excess capacity in the industry with labour and lift despite the collapses that will be inevitable and new duty regs. JME knows this and will do anything to make sure this deal goes through so he can check out and enjoy retirement(already tried to retire once in 2012) as fast a possible before the ship goes completely under. He does not want to restart this process and he does not want to go it alone so this deal is the only option. Transat is hemorrhaging cash badly and he/we all know it. Trust me he did not stay in this game for 30 years by being stupid or ignorant. I’m sure he is looking at all options to make sure his life’s work does not get totally flushed down the toilet. Transat will survive in some form. What form that will take will depends on what CR and JME decide it will be. Having both AC and TS flying around airplanes at 50-60 percent LF is not sustainable. Also every airline CEO also knows the headache we pilots can be when it comes to merged seniority lists. If CR sees this as an opportunity to eliminate multiple problems by one single act you can be assured he is seriously considering that. CR won’t hesitate to propose an agreement with JME to permanently shut down flt ops, return leases, cancel/sell positions on orders, sell/lease hangers, and terminate all staff. This all done under a guaranteed capacity purchase arrangement for Group Transat to have easy cost effective access to lift to get travellers to the hotels where Transat makes its money. ACs current network and future excess capacity when this is over can absorb the Transat passengers at no additional cost to AC of running another airline. This will also keep relations with ACPA on an even keel and score plenty of goodwill points with a much larger labour group. As for the ALPA Transat collective agreement, it’s protections and benefits will be worthless if the bargaining unit ceases to exist unfortunately. So much for recall rights. Ask GM Oshawa workers how that worked out. According to labour laws the purchasing enterprise has no obligation to former employees that are on terminated status. The best that can be hoped for is the Flt ops department does not permanently shut down and all staff terminated. Gilles theory sadly has legs. Remember JME is a tour operator not a an airline exec as he likes to remind us all. He never wanted an airline and he has no love for pilots either. To save the deal he would not hesitate to flush everyone he could to fill his pockets and tell everyone you can go apply at Air Canada when they start hiring again in 2 years.

Return button, spacebar, indents, anything! Help me, help you, help me read that...

[NotDirty!]

Return button, spacebar, indents, anything! Help me, help you, help me read that...

Hows this?

Right
now
the
Air
Transat
division
of
Group
Transat
is
completely
shutdown.
A prolonged
shutdown will
result in a restart
that will be logistically
and financially challenging.
Other than the 310s all other
aspects of flt ops; fleet leases,
crew and support staff are liabilities.(
Hence 100% crew lay-off) It also bears
mentioning that this recovery will be slow
as well as unpredictable. Don’t kid yourself
either for those that think leisure markets will
rebound quickly. Leisure will most likely be even
slower and more unpredictable since disposable
income used for leisure travel will not be available
for some time as people divert this income to try and
recover from lost income levels and maxed out debt loads.
Maxed out credit cards, lines of credit and deferred payment
catch up payments will take priority and eat up much of household
disposable income for the next year. This years summer season for leisure
travel is probably a complete right off. When operations finally come back
online there will still be excess capacity in the industry with labour and lift despite
the collapses that will be inevitable and new duty regs. JME knows this and will do anything
to make sure this deal goes through so he can check out and enjoy retirement(already
tried to retire once in 2012) as fast a possible before the ship goes completely
under. He does not want to restart this process and he does not want to
go it alone so this deal is the only option. Transat is hemorrhaging cash
badly and he/we all know it. Trust me he did not stay in this game
for 30 years by being stupid or ignorant. I’m sure he is looking
at all options to make sure his life’s work does not get
totally flushed down the toilet. Transat will
survive in some form. What form that
will take will depends on what
CR and JME decide it will be.
Having both AC and TS
flying around
airplanes
at
50-60
percent
LF is not
sustainable.
Also every airline
CEO also knows the
headache we pilots
can be when it comes
to merged seniority lists.
If CR sees this as an opportunity
to eliminate multiple problems by
one single act you can be assured he
is seriously considering that. CR won’t
hesitate to propose an agreement with
JME to permanently shut down flt ops, return
leases, cancel/sell positions on orders, sell/lease
hangers, and terminate all staff. This all done under
a guaranteed capacity purchase arrangement for Group
Transat to have easy cost effective access to lift to get travellers
to the hotels where Transat makes its money. ACs current network and
future excess capacity when this is over can absorb the Transat passengers
at no additional cost to AC of running another airline. This will also keep relations
with ACPA on an even keel and score plenty of goodwill points with a much larger labour
group. As for the ALPA Transat collective agreement, it’s protections and benefits will
be worthless if the bargaining unit ceases to exist unfortunately. So much for recall
rights. Ask GM Oshawa workers how that worked out. According to labour
laws the purchasing enterprise has no obligation to former employees
that are on terminated status. The best that can be hoped for
is the Flt ops department does not permanently shut down
and all staff terminated. Gilles theory sadly has legs.
Remember JME is a tour operator not a an airline
exec as he likes to remind us all. He never
wanted an airline and he has no love for
pilots either. To save the deal he
would not hesitate to flush
everyone he could to fill
his pockets and tell
everyone you can
go apply at Air
Canada when
they start
hiring
again
in
2
years.

Or

Code: Select all

RightnowtheAirTransatdivisionofGroupTransatiscompletelyshutdown.Aprolongedshutdownwillresultinarestartthatwillbelogisticallyandfinanciallychallenging.Otherthanthe310sallotheraspectsoffltops;fleetleases,crewandsupportstaffareliabilities.(Hence100%crewlay-off)Italsobearsmentioningthatthisrecoverywillbeslowaswellasunpredictable.Don’tkidyourselfeitherforthosethatthinkleisuremarketswillreboundquickly.Leisurewillmostlikelybeevenslowerandmoreunpredictablesincedisposableincomeusedforleisuretravelwillnotbeavailableforsometimeaspeopledivertthisincometotryandrecoverfromlostincomelevelsandmaxedoutdebtloads.Maxedoutcreditcards,linesofcreditanddeferredpaymentcatchuppaymentswilltakepriorityandeatupmuchofhouseholddisposableincomeforthenextyear.Thisyearssummerseasonforleisuretravelisprobablyacompleterightoff.Whenoperationsfinallycomebackonlinetherewillstillbeexcesscapacityintheindustrywithlabourandliftdespitethecollapsesthatwillbeinevitableandnewdutyregs.JMEknowsthisandwilldoanythingtomakesurethisdealgoesthroughsohecancheckoutandenjoyretirement(alreadytriedtoretireoncein2012)asfastapossiblebeforetheshipgoescompletelyunder.Hedoesnotwanttorestartthisprocessandhedoesnotwanttogoitalonesothisdealistheonlyoption.Transatishemorrhagingcashbadlyandhe/weallknowit.Trustmehedidnotstayinthisgamefor30yearsbybeingstupidorignorant.I’msureheislookingatalloptionstomakesurehislife’sworkdoesnotgettotallyflusheddownthetoilet.Transatwillsurviveinsomeform.WhatformthatwilltakewilldependsonwhatCRandJMEdecideitwillbe.HavingbothACandTSflyingaroundairplanesat50-60percentLFisnotsustainable.AlsoeveryairlineCEOalsoknowstheheadachewepilotscanbewhenitcomestomergedsenioritylists.IfCRseesthisasanopportunitytoeliminatemultipleproblemsbyonesingleactyoucanbeassuredheisseriouslyconsideringthat.CRwon’thesitatetoproposeanagreementwithJMEtopermanentlyshutdownfltops,returnleases,cancel/sellpositionsonorders,sell/leasehangers,andterminateallstaff.ThisalldoneunderaguaranteedcapacitypurchasearrangementforGroupTransattohaveeasycosteffectiveaccesstolifttogettravellerstothehotelswhereTransatmakesitsmoney.ACscurrentnetworkandfutureexcesscapacitywhenthisisovercanabsorbtheTransatpassengersatnoadditionalcosttoACofrunninganotherairline.ThiswillalsokeeprelationswithACPAonanevenkeelandscoreplentyofgoodwillpointswithamuchlargerlabourgroup.AsfortheALPATransatcollectiveagreement,it’sprotectionsandbenefitswillbeworthlessifthebargainingunitceasestoexistunfortunately.Somuchforrecallrights.AskGMOshawaworkershowthatworkedout.Accordingtolabourlawsthepurchasingenterprisehasnoobligationtoformeremployeesthatareonterminatedstatus.ThebestthatcanbehopedforistheFltopsdepartmentdoesnotpermanentlyshutdownandallstaffterminated.Gillestheorysadlyhaslegs.RememberJMEisatouroperatornotaanairlineexecashelikestoremindusall.Heneverwantedanairlineandhehasnoloveforpilotseither.TosavethedealhewouldnothesitatetoflusheveryonehecouldtofillhispocketsandtelleveryoneyoucangoapplyatAirCanadawhentheystarthiringagainin2years.

You’re welcome.

[Tealcowboy]

Wow, you are literally an idiot.

[lownslow]

Wow, you are literally an idiot.

It’s like the haiku from hell.

[goldeneagle]

Return button, spacebar, indents, anything! Help me, help you, help me read that...

Trouble reading fine print ?? Must be a pilot.....

[Localizer]

I doubt that lawsuit has any legs now ... I personally think a voucher for the equivalent amount is fair, but that’s me.

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5524899

[FL320]

https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rkers.html

The way I see it: Colin R. talked to the government and got a taste of the final decision regarding the purchase of AT; but he’s been asked to complete the deal to assure the future of AT. First step is to cancel the layoffs so it will help to justify to the public the purchase that will be released in the news next week. Then the gov will make the announcement regarding the financial help for the airline industry. Everybody will be happy.

[FL-280]

I think the company is in crisis mode and not everything is about ac saving ts.

[FL320]

I think the company is in crisis mode and not everything is about ac saving ts.

I understand but the only airline that will never be let down by the gov is AC; it’s not fair play.

[FL-280]

AC pilots are the only pilot group in Canada with no right to strike, deemed essential service and forced collective agreements by the government. That isnt fair either, life is bi...

[rudder]

I think the company is in crisis mode and not everything is about ac saving ts.

I understand but the only airline that will never be let down by the gov is AC; it’s not fair play.

What is stopping TS from my applying for CEWS? Or SWG?

They will have to cancel the layoffs and keep staff on payroll. My guess is they will do the math and figure out that it does not work for pilots due average monthly pay. Perhaps TS/SWG Pilots will have to look at worksharing (i.e. 50-55 hours per month) to make the math work.

CR is not only smart but he is a player. Well connected. Never underestimate him.